ROTJ and its flaws

Gharlane, I agree with all of those ideas. The most annoying flaw that you point out in your last post is the Rebels taking the shiny C-3PO down to Endor (which should be the Wookiee planet, of course). ALL THE REBELS WERE IN CAMOUFLAGE! And the literal crack-head Fisher takes chrome-dome down with everyone else! Give me a break.

 

What do you expect them to do, just leave them on the rebel mothership? no way which is why they had to bring them along.

 

PMT99

In commando raids you just don't take flashy pieces of equipment with you unless it is camouflaged. If it isn't there is a good chance that you'll be detected and your whole plan could be ruined. It's common sense and yes I think he should be left on the cruiser or better yet he should his stayed aboard the Falcon.

Binary

"And the literal crack-head Fisher takes chrome-dome down with everyone else! Give me a break."

I think some of the blame should be given to Luke who is probably shocked over Leia being his sister and Han who just awoke from his little nap.

 

Hahaha, Gharlane! Too true, too true!

PMT99, yes C-3PO should have been left behind. There is nothing wrong with leaving a (kind of) main character on the sidelines if there is nothing for him to do. It is far worse when the writer makes up stupid stuff just to keep every character in on the action.

 

When you run into a bunch of primitive tribal teddy bears that speak the kind of language you can't understand, you need something that'll help you communicate with them and C3P0 knows 6,000,000 forms of communication which is why they had to bring him along just in case something like that happens.

Oh and just so the Rebels don't get spotted, they would have told 3P0 to either remain on the shuttle or hide in the bushes.

 

Hey, guys. Did you know Star Wars isn't real life? Amazing, but true!

 

PTM99

"When you run into a bunch of primitive tribal teddy bears that speak the kind of language you can't understand, you need something that'll help you communicate with them and C3P0 knows 6,000,000 forms of communication which is why they had to bring him along just in case something like that happens."

Agreed, but nowhere in the movie did it indicate the Rebels knew there were sentients on the moon.

"Oh and just so the Rebels don't get spotted, they would have told 3P0 to either remain on the shuttle or hide in the bushes."

Are you saying PMT99 that a society that has transcended light hasn't even thought up of camouflage or are you saying that all our main characters were too dumb to use camouflage on the droid.

DarthHomer

Nice to see you here.

"Hey, guys. Did you know Star Wars isn't real life? Amazing, but true!"

Please tell all those people in New Zealand!

A million years from now when we all look like Vorlons I am betting that they'll actually believe that something similar to Star Wars actually happened.

 

Three more reasons why ROTJ sucks:

13. OBI-WAN'S APPEARANCE TO LUKE: In case you missed the first two films, Obi-Wan Kenobi is supposed to be dead. In Wars and Empire, he made himself known to Luke through an occasional voice in the head or in a floating vision. In Jedi, all of Obi-Wan's street credibility as a wizened spiritual guide is thrown out the window when he appears on Dagobah and shuffles around like Fred G. Sanford in a coat of glow paint. Rather than floating in one place, he fades in twenty feet away and walks up to Luke, eventually resting his non-corporeal butt on a rock. The ensuing two-way conversation scrambles to tie up too many loose ends at once, made worse by the fact that the character saying it all shouldn't even be there on such a literal level. And unlike his similarly flawed Dagobah appearance in Empire, Obi-Wan never fades back into oblivion once his message is delivered in Jedi. For all we know, he and Luke could have spent hours hanging out and gossiping like housewives.

14. LUKE: We like Mark Hamill, really. But though he was perfectly cast as the wet-behind-the-ears student in the first two films, he simply lacks the dignity to pull off a believable Jedi Knight.[To this I, Binary Sunset, must disagree. Mark Hamill has the dignity to be a Jedi.] To top things off, he has Aunt Beru's haircut from the first film. We forget, was Jedi released before or after the advent of the Supercuts salon chain?

15. SURPRISE! THEY'RE BROTHER AND SISTER: After Jedi came out, Lucas would routinely go on record stating that in his mind, Star Wars was always first and foremost a story about a brother and a sister. Does anybody really buy this? Wars and Empire both had sexually charged scenes that play significantly creepier when watched with the knowledge that Luke and Leia are siblings. It seems unlikely that Lucas would have included those scenes if he knew that one day people would be seeing them from such a different perspective. What seems likely, however, is that when Jedi came around, Lucas was grasping at straws, searching desperately for a plot revelation to equal Empire's classic father/son moment. Oh well -- even if Lucas is telling the truth (Yoda did, after all, say in Empire that there was "another"), the issue could have been handled in a less clumsy manner. Having Luke and Leia learn about their relationship through means other than spur-of-the-moment (albeit Force-guided) guesses would have been a start.

 

Actually, Leia was in much worse shape in ESB than she was in ROTJ. Watch carefully, and you can see Han helping Leia with some of her lines in ESB. Also, near the end, Han was supposed to say "I love you too.", but he instead said "I know.". It is debated that he said that out of frustration for her constant troubles...

 

Binary Sunset,
The complaint about Lucas' claim that "star wars was always about a brother and sister" is right on the money. His movies, even the "bad" ones, are great, but he has a serious problem with honesty in interviews. I don't know why he can't admit that he changed his mind about Leia. (He admits that he changed his mind about the wookies and about the location of the final battle.)Whatever his earlier intentions were, unless he has a thing for incest, he did not intend for her to be Luke's sister. His dishonesty leads me to infer that the sister angle was just an easy way to resolve the love triangle created in the first 2 films.

BTW, I do not think the other hope Yoda spoke of in ESB is Leia (its Anakin) - I can't believe Lucas intended to make Leia Luke's sister at the same time he was making her french kiss him.

 

I remember Sci-Fi Universe Magazine's infamous 50 reasons why we hate ROTJ issue and thought some of the points were valid, but a lot was just nitpicking. I didn't agree with their belief that Luke was't great in the movie. I thought it was Mark Hammil's finest performance. I loved how he kicked ass on Jabba's sail barge and how he faced up to the Emperor. And one of the magazine's actual complaints was that the Imperial shuttle was not just designed for Vader and was also used for the Emperor and then the Rebels. They thought he should have been given his own personal ship. I remember reading this and thinking he DOES have his own ship: The Super Star Destroyer, EXECUTOR. Who needs a rinky-dink little shuttle when you can have a gigantic ship that's five times the size of a regular star destroyer?

 

Ransom

I think the other hope Yoda spoke of was probably Luke's sister who isn't Leia or it's that guy that was frozen in carbonite in ep3.

 

Gharlane-

I'm saying that when it comes to infiltraiting an imperial sheild generator, the rebels need to keep 3P0 hidden so they won't be discovered.

 

Waheennay:

It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who thinks that Mark Hamill's best performance was in ROTJ.

 

PMT99

"I'm saying that when it comes to infiltraiting an imperial sheild generator, the rebels need to keep 3P0 hidden so they won't be discovered."

It would have been wiser for them to put camouflage on the droid obviously George Lucas wasn't thinking or he was stressed out.

I am curious on why the Rebels would take a interpreter with them. There were no signs indicating that they knew that there was sentient life on Endor.

 

R2-D2 needed to come for them to get around imperial compute security and stuff and C3-PO is always with him so that is why they had they had C3-PO.

 

Gharlane,

You may be right that Yoda meant a sister that wasn't Leia. But there's no reason why Luke needed a sister in the first place. As for Han, Yoda didn't seem to give a rats' about Han (or Leia for that matter). He was content to sacrifice them for the greater good.

And more evidence that Leia was never supposed to be in the jedi picture: in ANH, Luke is the "New Hope" and Obi-Wan (by extension Luke because Obi was admittedly getting too old) is the "only hope." But what kills me more than anything is Leia's line in ROTJ when Luke reveals their kinship: "I know, I guess I've always known." Lucas, realizing the arbitrary turn the story was taking, is definitely overselling it.

 

Ransom

"As for Han, Yoda didn't seem to give a rats' about Han (or Leia for that matter). He was content to sacrifice them for the greater good."

I am talking about a character that was rumored to be frozen in carbonite in the prequel trilogy.

"And more evidence that Leia was never supposed to be in the jedi picture: in ANH, Luke is the "New Hope" and Obi-Wan (by extension Luke because Obi was admittedly getting too old) is the "only hope." "

Vader was never suppose to be Luke's father, but he was retconned into Anakin in ESTB. Leia and Luke being siblings could have been handled much better if we knew in the beginning that they were brother and sister while they didn't. I believe we call it dramatic irony. Anyone heard of Oedipus?

Wes

When was it mentioned by the Rebels during their meeting that they were taking Artoo to break into the security system? It seemed to me that it was simply a raid with no droids until Luke joined them. Why would they Threepio just because Artoo is coming with them? I mean they have that comlink allowing them to communicate with Artoo.

The only reason they would have taken Threepio would be if the Rebels thought that the sentients on the planet might help them, but there is nothing indicating that in the meeting aboard the command crusier.

 

I guess I'll just sign up for a one day pass into your thread, because being a fan of ROTJ, I know I'll be denied membership! I love ROTJ because Luke finally gets to as Waheennay put it "kick ass!" Luke has been considered "A New Hope" for so long--but really has been too immature and untrained to act the part. Yes, he did blow up a small death star, but he would have been blown to smithereens in another half second without Han's help. He spent the better part of ESB screwing up, getting injured, having to be rescued and failing Yoda-except for a fairly good showing at The Battle of Hoth. (I always felt bad for Dack though.) So I really enjoyed getting to see him serious and grown-up, even a little dark at times and able to do the rescuing for a change! I also don't have a problem with Mark Hamill's acting--I think it's been pretty consistant throughout the trilogy. It seems like some people have more of a problem with Luke having changed so much from ESB to RotJ more than with his specific acting. I have a feeling that was a directoral thing, although I could be wrong.
For myself, I was never sure how much time had passed between ESB & Rotj and just thought maybe the force had just really been revealed to Luke during that time. I always felt that way about a lot of the coincidences that happened in the trilogy--like the force was a living breathing entity that could not only be controlled but could control or influence certain events.
I have a very good friend whose, I am convinced, major disappointment of the decade was Luke not getting the girl. He harbors an almost irrational resentment against GL for this traumatic event of his youth, and can in no way enjoy ROTJ for this very reason. I was not too pro at first about this turn of events myself, (although anyone who didn't give it up after ESB was deluding themselves IMO.) But after I gave up the dream, I admitted to myself that Leia had always treated Luke like a brother--really like a younger brother that she loved and wanted to protect. What about the kiss? Well that does kinda make me squirm watching it now, but it's clear the only reason she did it was to piss Han off and she succeeded! So her lines about "I always knew" never bothered me. The next best thing to Luke and Leia being made family by marriage, was to me, being made family forever by mom and pop! So after Luke found out, I couldn't wait to see how she was going to react. I always liked to explain it to myself that this was why he was so drawn to her when he first saw her being projected by R2--because they had that connection from the womb, baby! Only Luke interpreted it as the other kind of love not remembering about their history. Anyway, it works for me and helps me to enjoy this turn of events w/o being pissed off.
I really love the action sequences, especially Jabba's sailbarge and the speeder chase. But the absolute best thing for me is the interaction between Luke and his father. I really get into the love Luke has for him and the belief Luke has in him. Putting his life on the line and everything--very cool to me. I was so into Luke's struggle with the dark side--fighting not to be consumed by hate. I always, again, thought a lot more was going on than just what the actors were saying. I felt like the emperor and Vader were deluging him with all this force energy to try to sway him to the dark side. Much like Vader must have done to Luke in ESB. (We heard some of it when Vader called to Luke from his shuttle.) I could always see it on Luke's face, that he was crumbling fast under all the pressure he was trying to withstand. And I personally loved the lightsaber duels--they were just awesome to me.
You'll notice I'm leaving out a few small parts of the movie, very small furry parts that start with an E. Weell, they are just a little too saccharin for a grown up and I personally have a hard time watching those parts today w/o getting a toothache. My son won't let me fast forward through, they're his favorite part next to when R2 gets shot (?) So I in no way think that

 

Gharlane, I tend to agree with your statement: "Vader was never supposed to be Luke's father, but he was retconned into Anakin in ESTB." But what exactly does the word "retconned" mean?

 

Binary

You don't read any comics do you?

Retcon is an abbreviation for "retroactive continuity". A retcon is when the writer of a story adds previously unknown details to the story~{!/~}s history, or sometimes completely reworks it. For example, Vader who use to be Obi-Wan's student now became Luke's father. A better example is in X-men when Jean Grey who "died" in the Dark Phoenix Saga turned out to be a cosmic entity and that the real one never actually died.

 

Mynockinknees

"The next best thing to Luke and Leia being made family by marriage, was to me, being made family forever by mom and pop! So after Luke found out, I couldn't wait to see how she was going to react. I always liked to explain it to myself that this was why he was so drawn to her when he first saw her being projected by R2--because they had that connection from the womb, baby! Only Luke interpreted it as the other kind of love not remembering about their history. Anyway, it works for me and helps me to enjoy this turn of events w/o being pissed off."

This is your explaination. Very fine dandy in my opinion, but did you know what plans Lucas had for Luke? The sister was to be a person on the other side of the Galaxy who was also undergoing Jedi training. He sacrifaced the sister thread just to resolve the love triangle. I don't care who Leia hooks up with, but I wanted that thread resolved with an introduction of a new character instead of bringing the characters closer.

I always view Star Wars as a scifi version of War and Peace or the Arthurian legends and Lucas had admitted that it is. In both versions Lancelot/Arthur or Pierre/Prince Andrew aren't related to Gwenevere or Natasha. Basically he resolved the triangle too simply.

"I really love the action sequences, especially Jabba's sailbarge"

Did you notice that the lightsaber's safety lock on? I mean it never seared any flesh. It worked more like a baseball bat than a laser sword.

"I was so into Luke's struggle with the dark side--fighting not to be consumed by hate. "

What struggle? Whenever Luke was coming close to the dark side the Emperor forced him back by saying he could feel his anger.

If you don't watch ep6 for a few months then you'll realize how many flaws it has.

 

Thanks for the explanation Gharlane! I haven't read comics for a long time (they have gotten too expensive for my tastes). I remember reading X-Men #137 back in 1980 or so, and Jean Grey died. It was very well done. I can't believe some idiot would go and muck that up. Aaargh! Can't anything good be left in peace?!

 

It got a lot worse in case you want to know.
They have been resurrecting and killing characters right and left. Heck Cyclops just got resurrected recently.

 

Sigh. Don't tell me anymore, Gharlane.

Reasons 16-18 that ROTJ sucks:

16. UNFORGIVABLE DIALOGUE: Threepio approaching Jabba's palace: "I have a bad feeling about this"; Han Solo, when confronted by Ewoks: "I have a bad feeling about this"; Leia, after releasing Solo from carbon freeze: "I gotta get you outta here"; Leia, after being freed from Jabba's chains: "We gotta get outta here"; Leia, after she and an Ewok are ambushed on Endor: "Let's get outta here." With dialogue like this, it seems Lucas finally put that "million monkeys at a million typewriters" theory to the test.

17. HORRIBLE EXPOSITION: "Artoo, look! It's Captain Solo -- and he's still in carbonite!" Lines like this are for those people who somehow missed the first two movies. Threepio is the main offender throughout, even going so far as to offer a long, Ewokese summary of the trilogy's plot thus far (with sound effects, no less). Of course, Lucas would probably say that scene was to show "the entrancing magic of storytelling." Call us cynical, but entrancing magic makes us want to puke.

18. JABBA THE MUPPET: Er -- Hutt. Jabba isn't all that scary. It seems Lucas became so enamored of his technology that he forgot humans are far more ominous than any shop-built alien life-form could ever hope to be. Remember Grand Moff Tarkin? Now there was a creepy villain. We're so busy trying to figure out where all the puppeteers were hiding beneath Jabba's frame that we're never able to accept him as a living, breathing character. And no matter how you cut it, his eyelids still look fake. If only they hadn't lost the phone number of that fat Irish guy who originally played him in that deleted Wars scene.