ROTJ and its flaws

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Gharlane, Feb 6, 2001.

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  1. Gharlane Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2000
    star 2
    I thought Star Wars dialogue was always awful. I mean Mr. Lucas couldn't write dialogue if his life was at stake.

    I actually liked that part where Threepio was telling the story to the Ewoks/Wookies. I think Lucas was seriously trying to show us the effects of storytelling even thought he messed up by having Threepio say Cloud City and a few other words in English.

    Have to agree with the last one. I really wanted to see Baron Harkonnen in Star Wars. Heck thats what he looks like in my rewrite along with mercenaries wearing Klingon armor.
  2. Mynockinknees Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2001
    Gharlane

    Thanks for responding to my post. I'm new to this board and just getting a reply made my day even if you didn't think much of my ideas.

    I've been reading a lot about what could of or should have been in a lot of these threads and frankly I really don't know what to make of it. A lot of writers have ideas that don't make the final edit of a manuscript, just as every film has moments that could change the entire interpretation of a scene that are cut out. I was reading recently that in the editing process they even discover things happening that weren't in the script and then go back and shoot extra scenes because they like where things were going. Should those scenes not be considered valid? I mean when you start down this road, I'm just not understanding where it stops.
    So to me, I'm not so interested about which version of GL's script he was at one time considering as much as the final one that he did pick for whatever reason.
    If I'm understanding you, part of your frustration is that you feel he sacrificed the quality of the movie to get it finished and to please the general public. I think you probably have a very valid point there. But he had to make a lot of the same kind of choices because of time, money, etc. with the other two movies.
    I guess my main difference of opinion is that I don't think the first two movies are so pristine. I love all the movies equally and watch them according to the mood I'm in that day. But if I were hung-up on special effects snafus I wouldn't be able to enjoy any of the movies as they all three had their share. ANH for instance had a whole lotta lightsaber problems in it's own right. TPM on the other hand had few if any but although I enjoyed it, it's gotta be a distant 4th on my list.
    As far as the influences GL used I've heard he based the story on Buddhism, Sinbad the Sailorman and Flash Gordon too--but again I judge the final product not its ancestors.
    And as for the Emperor warning Luke off, I admit that used to bother me a bit too, until I realized that the Emperor needed Luke to choose to go to the dark side not be tricked into it.
    As far as not watching the part VI for a while--unfortunately I'm not able to watch it as much as I'd like so I've taken quite a few breaks over the years (some self imposed just to prove to my family I was not an addict!) and I always came back liking it better than ever! There's just no accountin' for taste is there?
    Some of this, "I wish it was written my way stuff," reminds me of "Misery," when she imprisoned that poor writer until he wrote his book to her satisfaction. I'm not saying that's you so please don't take offense. (I'm sure you're much better looking than her HEHE)
    And I do entirely share your viewpoint on many aspects of ROTJ actually. It's just that the parts I love I really love.
  3. Gharlane Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2000
    star 2
    "But he had to make a lot of the same kind of choices because of time, money, etc. with the other two movies."

    He didn't sacriface the other two movies just to increase profits.

    "And as for the Emperor warning Luke off, I admit that used to bother me a bit too, until I realized that the Emperor needed Luke to choose to go to the dark side not be tricked into it."

    That just makes Luke's ephiphany seem like it was inspired by the Devil aka Palpatine. The hero in my opinion is suppose to get it from himself.

    Whos Misery?


  4. Mynockinknees Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2001
    "Misery" is the book by Stephen King that was made into a movie. The "she" I was referring to is the nurse that at first helps the writer that's in the car wreck and then takes him hostage until he writes her favorite book to her specifications. It's one of those creepy movies.
  5. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Here are reasons #19-21 that ROTJ sucks:

    19. STUPID COINCIDENCES: "We have been without an interpreter since our master got angry with our last protocol droid and disintegrated him." Pan over to said droid being pulled apart in a machine, to allow for a startled reaction shot by Threepio. Numerous scenes like this further damage Jedi's ability to convince us this stuff is really happening. Jabba and his minions sit silently behind the Let's Make a Deal curtain, and the fact that the escape skiff just happens to have two magnetic retrieval devices to pluck the fallen droids out of the sand are further examples of this problem. None of these scenes needed to center around such ridiculous leaps in logic; more often than not they're simply indicative of lazy screenwriting or are inserted for excessive rim-shot-ready moments.

    20. BOBA FETT'S DEATH: It's inexcusable that such an imposing figure as Boba Fett -- the one bounty hunter good enough to capture Solo -- flies clumsily to his death in the Sarlacc pit while screaming like Shemp from the Three Stooges. Any Star Wars geek worth his weight in trading cards will tell you that Boba Fett is the trilogy's most underused character. His brief but badass appearance in Empire had us all anxiously awaiting the next film, assuming his role would be greatly expanded by the events surrounding what we then thought would be an incredible escape by Han. Not only does Fett have nothing to do in Jedi, but in the ultimate indignity, he's killed off without ceremony or honor for no better reason than another damn burp joke. According to the novels and comics, Fett survived. But that's not what's implied in the film itself, and it doesn't make the scene any less shameful.

    21. TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE POSTPRODUCTION LOOPING: In about half of Jedi's scenes, little attempt is made to match the dialogue with the characters' lip movements -- it's almost like watching a Mothra flick. If Lucas were smart, he'd blame this on the film's being dubbed from its original language. You know -- the one they spoke a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.
  6. Gharlane Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2000
    star 2
    "19. STUPID COINCIDENCES"

    This is a blantant attack on ROTJ. Jabba knew that Leia was Boushh from what I gathered or was it EU? Also whoever said that the tortured droid was the translator.

    "20. Boba Fett's Death"

    I have to agree on that one. I still don't understand why Lucas didn't use Kasadan's idea of having Lando and Fett fight with one another with one or both going into the Sarlacc.

    "21. TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE POSTPRODUCTION LOOPING"

    I have to disagree. I never noticed anything wrong. From the interviews I have read Mr. Lucas was very involved in it. It's even mentioned in the Annoated Screenplays where it says that Lucas noticed that Threepio's mouth was out of sync with his voice.
  7. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    Jedi may be the worst Star Wars film, but that don't make it bad.

    And I agree the bashers are just like Annie Wilkes. They see what Lucas offers and say:

    "It's not supposed to happen that way! Leia wasn't Luke's sister, and Anakin didn't grow up on Tattooine! You're ruining the cock-a-doody movie!"

    Sorry :)
  8. Ransom Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2001
    star 3
    Gharlane,

    Sorry to go back a couple of days. I never heard a rumor about someone else being frozen in carbonite, can you fill me in?

    As for your second comment to me, were you agreeing or disagreeing? I knew Vader was "retconned" (though I never heard that term), and that Lucas had some vague ideas for a sister. I was just trying to show that there's no way Leia was the sister until ROTJ. And Lucas' response that Star Wars was always about a brother and a sister is a bit Clintonian. (No political flames - I voted for the guy.) I think we agree, though, that it was a cheesy way to resolve the love triangle. From the beginning, it seemed to me that Luke was going to lose to Han, so I didn't mind him not getting the girl. But to gloss over the fact that he clearly *wanted* to get the girl was a cheap out.

    Duckman,

    There's a difference between complaining because the movies didn't proceed the way you wanted them to, and complaining that the way the movies proceeded was not done as well as it could've been or was less than believable. You're free to disagree with the latter type of complaint (reasonable people can differ), but you shouldn't attack it by treating like the former type.

  9. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Gharlane wrote: "The Annotated Screenplays...say that Lucas noticed that Threepio's mouth was out of sync with his voice."

    Are you serious? Did genius Lucas really say that? 3PO's mouth doesn't move, so how can it be out of sync with his voice? ?[face_plain]
  10. waheennay Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2000
    star 4
    I think he meant his voice was out of sync with Anthony Daniels' head movements.
  11. Gharlane Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2000
    star 2
    Ransom - I believe the character frozen in carbonite originated in the 1980s. I am also betting that Lucas has probably thrown out the idea even if it was true.

    I was agreeing with you, but I also thought that if Lucas intended it then he could have revealed it in ep4 or ep5 with Luke and Leia kept in the dark. It would have been more dramatic imo.

    Binary- It was the mouth. The guy commented to Lucas that Threepio didn't have one, but he realized that Lucas was right.

    Duckman- I agree it isn't as bad compared with every science fiction movie, but it's bad by Star Wars standards.
  12. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Boy, this thread is a lot of fun. ROTJ is definitely the sickly child of the original trilogy. With that in mind, here are reasons #22-24 that ROTJ sucks:

    22. SUBPAR SPECIAL EFFECTS: It's strange that the film that gave us sci-fi's most intricate and well-choreographed space battle to date also gave us so many effects that look just plain silly. The rancor aside (see below), consider Han's light-streaming release from the carbonite, the seemingly Magic Markered shadow under Jabba's sail barge, and the explosion of the shield generator on Endor (in which Han and his team, about twenty feet from the bunker, aren't affected in the slightest by an explosion that, from our viewpoint, engulfs several square miles of forest).

    23. THE RANCOR EFFECTS: In quite probably the worst use of a blue screen in the history of big-budget film, the rancor looks so awful it deserves its own separate mention. Planning this sequence, the ILM team seems to have been inspired by old episodes of Lidsville, as the admittedly well-designed puppet appears at all times either flat or two-dimensional or surrounded by an unearthly glow. This is one effect we won't mind seeing cleaned up.

    24. LEIA AND HAN'S RELATIONSHIP: It's A Galaxy Far, Far Away 90210! The subtle, repressed passion of Empire is simplified to high school relationship levels in Jedi. They kiss, they say "I love you," Han throws a hissy fit and gets jealous of Luke. The couple play off each other in such obvious ways that we're reminded of the Screenwriting 101 rule of "show, don't tell." Han and Leia never look or act like two adults in love -- and no amount of gushy language can cover up that fact.
  13. Gharlane Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2000
    star 2
    "22. SUBPAR SPECIAL EFFECTS"

    "consider Han's light-streaming release from the carbonite"

    Lucas should have released Han before the movie(which is the way I am doing) or done it off screen or with shadows.

    "explosion of the shield generator on Endor"

    Have to agree that it was pretty stupid. I am betting that the Rebels didn't give Han a lesson in how to use those bombs or it Leia who set them.

    "23. THE RANCOR EFFECTS. "

    This doesn't concern the Rancor effects, but does anyone here thinks that Lucas should have combined the Rancor and Sarlacc scenes into one. I mean those scene are pretty repetitious.

    "24. LEIA AND HAN'S RELATIONSHIP"

    "They kiss, they say "I love you," Han throws a hissy fit and gets jealous of Luke."

    Read contrived.

    "The couple play off each other in such obvious ways that we're reminded of the Screenwriting 101 rule of "show, don't tell.""

    Was Kasdan actually working on this or was this all thanks to Mr. Lucas?
  14. EternalJedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 1998
    Okay, the list of "50 Reasons Why Jedi Sucks" has a few valid points, but it seems to me what it really boils down to is Vebber and Gould saying "we're a couple of sci-fi geeks who came up with this on a couple of weekend nights because we couldn't get dates to save our lives. Looking at Princess Leia in the slave outfit is probably as close to a real woman as we will ever get."

    ;-)
  15. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Garlange and Binary-

    SUBPAR SPECIAL EFFECTS:

    -Consider Han's light-streaming release from the carbonite:

    Do you have a better way to show how Han was being thawed out of his carbonite prison? Because what was shown in the movie is the only way to do it.

    -Magic markered under Jabba's sail barge:

    You rather not let it have a shadow because that was all they can do.

    -THE RANCOR EFFECTS:

    Lay off the Rancor because it looks cool the way it is and its not flat or two-dimensional but I do agree that the matte lines should be removed.

    -EXPLOSION OF THE SHIELD GENERATOR ON ENDOR:

    The rebels were nowhere near the generator when it exploded because they were on the other side of the generator.

    -LEIA AND HAN'S RELATIONSHIP:

    They've just been reunited after Han was being frozen in carbonite and was shipped off to Jabba the Hutt and already you are attacking them for just getting back together after that incident? How would you feel if your soulmate was being frozen in carbonite and is shipped off to god knows where?

    -STUPID COINCIDENCES:

    That other droid being disintergated is not the one that was mentioned and do you have a better explanation as to how Luke and his posse can retrieve 3P0 and R2 and then escape?

    -BOBA FETT'S DEATH:

    Do you have a better way as to how Boba Fett is suppose to die because death is death no matter which way it is done.

    -TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE POSTPRODUCTION LOOPING:

    The alien characters are not suppose to have the same language as us.

    Man if you two really had a problem with ROTJ, then you shouldn't have watched the movie instead of coming to this board and complaining about its faults.




  16. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    PMT99, do you really believe that Han's release from the carbonite and the sail barge's shadow are as good as Lucasfilm could have done? They are terrible! Look at, for example, the special effects for the battle on Hoth. They are excellent. After three years Lucasfilm shouldn't have gone so far downhill as to magic marker in the shadow. And have you noticed how funky Han's lips are when he's being thawed?

    "Soulmate" seems a bit much for Han and Leia's romance. I would much rather have Han be genuinely thankful and touched that his friends rescued him, but express it in a gruff and embarrassed way.

    Boba Fett in ROTJ was like a precursor to Jar Jar. This very popular character was given a Looney Tunes death. How sad.
  17. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    And here are reasons 25-27 that ROTJ sucks:

    25. CARRIE FISHER'S "ACTING": Han: "Who are you?" Leia: "Someone who loves you." When Carrie Fisher isn't staring vacantly into space, she's emoting to degrees previously seen only in Mexican soap operas. At least today she's cool enough to admit that she was zoned out on coke the entire time.

    26. OBVIOUS MISSED OPPORTUNITIES: Putting aside the fact that the entire movie is a missed opportunity in the context of the trilogy, Jedi has specific missed opportunities too numerous to count within its own structure. These range from major (Lucas's throwaway admission that he had originally intended Endor to be a planet of Wookiees, and the fact that Lando doesn't die in the Death Star assault, as Jedi's original script dictated) to picayune (when the Alliance fleet suddenly realizes the Death Star's shield is still functional, it would have been nice to see one or two X-Wings crash into said shield and explode, having not had enough time to pull up).

    27. YODA: In Empire, Yoda was a sagacious sprite who brought to mind Gaelic legend. In Jedi, he's an annoying toad who sounds like Super Grover (thanks to Frank Oz's forgetting how to do the voice) and looks about as realistic as his Kenner action-figure likeness (thanks to bad, overlit cinematography; see point 3). Like the movie he's stuck in, Jedi's Yoda is lacking in wisdom and festering with cuteness. Get out your laser discs (okay, or your videotapes) and compare the two Yodas head-to-head. You'll be surprised.

  18. DarthVenn Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2001
    I think Return of the Jedi was the second greatest Star Wars film (The Empire Strikes Back being the best. I know I'm going to get some disaggrement there, but the Hoth scene was brilliant). Who cares about the acting, it not being dubbed by an error of about 1/4 a second, and the black lines around the Rancor? It's the story that matters. Not the speacial effects. This movie is the one that ties up all loose ends. If they stoped at Empire, they would of had millions of disgruntled fans. So think of all 3 movies in a good way, not like this.
  19. Gharlane Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2000
    star 2
    "Do you have a better way to show how Han was being thawed out of his carbonite prison?"

    Yes by not showing it at all or showing us the shadows instead. Kershner never showed Han becoming the carbonite slab so why should Lucas/Marquand show Han being released. In my rewrite that I am working on Han is already released.

    Because what was shown in the movie is the only way to do it.

    "Lay off the Rancor because it looks cool the way it is and its not flat or two-dimensional but I do agree that the matte lines should be removed."

    I think the Sarlacc and Rancor have been combined into one scene then it would be less reptitious and the movie would be tighter.

    "Do you have a better way as to how Boba Fett is suppose to die because death is death no matter which way it is done."

    Give him a better death where he fights with Lando or Luke and gets knocked in. In a nutshell give him a "warrior's death".

    "Man if you two really had a problem with ROTJ, then you shouldn't have watched the movie instead of coming to this board and complaining about its faults."

    I loved Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back and some element of ROTJ. I just hate that Lucas ended this wonderful saga with a "clunker".
  20. Gharlane Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2000
    star 2
    DarthVenn

    The story was also awful. It seemed like two episode joined together. Lucas gave us Max Rebo and his stupid band and the Ewoks instead of Wookie. You also forgot that Lucas made the Emperor an idiot who "lost the thing single-handedly". Read all my previous posts to understand how bad Jedi is.
  21. Gharlane Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2000
    star 2
    "25. CARRIE FISHER'S "ACTING""

    Could someone explain this to me? I knew she was using crack or something, but how did she get cast if she was a drug addict.

    "26. OBVIOUS MISSED OPPORTUNITIES"

    Everything they said has been incorporated into the rewrite summary except the fighter plunging into the DS2/Coruscant. Lando was never intended to die, but he dies in my rewrite. Either he goes into the monster with Boba Fett or dies when he destroye the Executor before it can destroy Endor. I'd like some input on which death you prefer.

    "27. YODA"

    From what I heard it was Marquand's fault. The only way Yoda worked in ESTB was because Kershner spent a lot of time on it or at least thats what I've heard.
  22. baggles Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 1999
    star 4
    George was on the Dagobah set quite a bit.
    Check the Making of TESB book and TV special.

    And why are people comparing the sickly death bed cameo Yoda to his "meaty" TESB screen time...
  23. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Binary-

    The technology was too limited which is why those scenes are all that Lucas can do and Han's lips were the same way when he was still frozen not to mention that he was still blind and didn't realise that he hit Boba Fett's jetpack.

    YODA:

    He is dying for god sakes so will you please not discuss what is wrong with his acting.

    OBVIOUS MISSED OPPORTUNITIES:

    Lando would not have been able to warn the rebels to pull away from the death star had it not been for what's his name

    Garlange-

    The Emperor is not an idiot because he started this whole chain of events in TPM and he'd still be ruling the universe if Luke had not valiantly made Vader turn to the light side and slammed dunked the emperor into the shaft and you should understand that Lucas did the movie the way he did so he can put a closure to the story.
  24. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Here are reasons #28-30 (out of 50) that ROTJ sucks:

    28. THE OPENING TEXT CRAWL: Let's compare the opening text crawl in which we are given our first taste of each of the three films, shall we? Star Wars: "It is a period of civil war..." Empire: "It is a dark time for the Rebellion..." Jedi: "Luke Skywalker has returned to his home planet of Tatooine in an attempt to rescue his friend Han Solo from the clutches of the vile gangster Jabba the Hutt. Charo guest stars." Okay, we threw in the part about Charo. But the point is, we're talking mythic tracts versus a blurb from TV Guide. The first sentence in Jedi centers around the word friend. Well, that's just peachy, but we much prefer the first two films' implications that we're about to see something a bit larger than a buddy picture.

    29. IMPERIAL TECHNOLOGY: Imperial engineers should really figure out a way to keep their vehicles from blowing up so easily, both in space and on the ground. In Jedi, not only does a single crashed A-Wing take out an entire eight-kilometer Super Star Destroyer, but several scout walkers explode like Pintos whenever something taps them a little too hard. (True, the Imperial walkers in Empire could be tripped up a bit easily, but at least they didn't burst into fireballs until hit by Rebel blaster fire.) It seems strange that the Rebels even bothered procuring spaceships and blasters -- based on what Jedi shows us, the Empire could have been defeated with a couple of well-placed safety pins.

    30. JABBA'S DROID TORTURE ROOM: First of all, torturing droids is stupid on a purely conceptual level, seeing as how they're machines and all. But what on earth was going through Lucas and Marquand's heads when they decided to play the scene in Jabba's droid room for laughs? Wars and Empire both have torture scenes. They're pretty unsettling. Know why? *Because they're torture scenes!* Torture's not supposed to be funny -- no one wants to laugh at a screaming power droid as a bad steam effect shoots out of its feet to simulate the application of intense heat. But to the makers of Jedi, there's nothing like a little humor at the expense of torture victims, even if they are mechanical. Following the release of Jedi, Amnesty International must have logged hundreds of reports of people flogging their waffle irons and blenders.
  25. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    28. Luke would not have rescued Han if he didn't considered him his friend.

    29. The super star destroyer lost its reflector shield when the rebels destroyed whatever that thing was that blew up which is why it was destroyed so easily.

    30. They were not trying to make the torture room scene funny by any means but it seems that people would still laugh at it even though it wasn't trying to be funny.
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