ROTJ and its flaws

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Gharlane, Feb 6, 2001.

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  1. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    And here are reasons #31-33 why ROTJ sucks:

    31. USE OF EARTH SLANG AND POP CULTURE: We were almost willing to forgive the fact that an Ewok exclaims "Yahoo," or that Threepio uses the supposedly Ewokese word "boom", until we saw the abominable scene where an Ewok swings from a vine and lets out a note-for-note copy of Tarzan's famous yell. Have we mentioned that we hate the Ewoks?

    32. JEDI AFTERLIFE: You can screw up your entire life, strangle scores of people, and oversee the construction of a planet-destroying battle station, but as long as you repent with your last breath, you get to party with Yoda and Ben in the netherworld. Speaking of that, Yoda seems to have gotten the short end of the afterlife stick -- why does Anakin's ghost get to regrow his hair and get all spiffed up and nice looking, while Yoda, who managed to resist the dark side all his nine-hundred-plus years, still looks like a crumpled old salamander?

    33. UNREALISTIC, BORING FIGHT SEQUENCES: Why stage an elaborate hand-to-hand fight with a scout trooper when you can just have Solo use the old "shoulder tap" trick? Or when you can throw a duffel bag at an Imperial guard and he'll backflip over a railing and into the shield generator's energy core? Not since Charlton Heston took out a gorilla bare-handed have we been asked to swallow such nonsense.
  2. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    The next three reasons ROTJ sucks:

    34. STORMTROOPERS HAVE BECOME WUSSES: "Look out -- teddy bear creatures! And they have primitive handmade weapons! Let's forget our years of intense military training, put down our high-tech weaponry, and run away!"

    35. VADER'S REAL FACE: You know, Darth, that scar will never heal unless you stop scratching it. But enough with the clever bon mots -- it should have been David Prowse under that helmet. Period. He deserved at least that much, and probably would have been willing to shave his head. Sebastian Shaw delivers an acceptable acting job (actually, one of Jedi's only acceptable acting jobs), but that pudgy head just doesn't match up with the body we see on Vader throughout the rest of the trilogy.

    36. BAD EDITING: It seems that the folks at Supercuts were hired by Lucasfilm not only to style the actors' coils but to hack and splice the film as well. That Jedi has problems with its editing is largely a subjective opinion and hard to quantify, but we base our belief on the fact that certain scenes just plain lack the punch and pacing we know they could and should have had (though whether this is the director's fault or the editor's isn't always clear).
  3. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    Ahh, bless him. Keep it going, Binary.
    I have to say though, that I watched ANH again the other night and noticed that some of the Imperials in the conference scene had American accents as well. Guess that's only 49 reasons why Jedi sucks now. :)
  4. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    31. That ewok did not do the famous Tarzan yell

    32. Anakin has been rescued from the netherworld by Obi-wan after he died turning back to the light side and bringing balance to the force and anything can happen once your in the netherworld.

    33. You rather have Han be a sitting duck and let that scouttrooper kill him? I don't think so.

    34. That was to show how overconfident the emperor was when he underestimates the ewoks' abilities.

    35. Lucas already hired Shaw to play Anakin and if he shows Prowse unmasked on one scene and then Shaw on another, there will be too many questions being asked which is why only Shaw is acceptable for the Anakin's death scene.

    36. The editing is not at fault for your dissapointment over the film, it was your lack of ability to enjoy this film that made it a dissapointment for you.
  5. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    DarthHomer, you watched the original 1977 Star Wars the other night? You blessed child! I hope it was the real version and not that *other* one. ;)
  6. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    Binary, I have both versions, so I can choose which one to watch depending on my mood :)
  7. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Ahh, time for the next three reasons that ROTJ sucks:

    37. THE ALIEN LANGUAGES ARE POORLY PRESENTED: Bib Fortuna repeatedly lapses from Huttese into English for no apparent reason, and we learn from Leia's bounty hunter alter ego that at least one translation of "Thirty thousand, no less" is "Yoto. Yoto." Huh? And while we're on the subject, if Threepio is Jabba's translator, why does he translate what others are saying into English rather than Huttese? The precedent is there to employ subtitles, but they're only rarely used to suggest some iota of realism.

    38. INCONSISTENCY WITHIN THE ESTABLISHED UNIVERSE: It can always be argued that the Star Wars universe contains a wide array of peoples and languages. Still, it strikes us as sloppy that codes on Jedi's computer screens are in alien gobbledygook language, while the tractor beam controls in Wars were in English. And speaking of English, almost all the Imperials in Wars and Empire have an English accent. Jedi doesn't continue this trend -- unfortunately, because as everyone knows, the British are inherently terrifying.

    39. YODA'S DEATH SEQUENCE: Yoda says, "Soon will I rest. Yes, forever sleep." Less than four minutes later -- bam! He's a goner. And what does Luke do while his beloved master lies choking and gasping for his final breaths? Well, he just sort of sits there like a doofus and watches him writhe in pain. Not that dialing 911 is an option on Dagobah, but a simple, "Hey, Master -- you okay?" would have been a nice gesture.
  8. Darth-Special Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2001
    star 1
    I don't think the movie is too flawed. It just rehashes the stuff from the first two films a bit too much at times. Plus, the idiotic scene where the bunker blows up and the blast surrounds the forest for miles, yet Han and Leia and the rest of the gang are not even singed.

    My order of the five films:

    1.The Holiday Special
    2.ESB
    3.ANH
    4.RotJ
    5.TPM
  9. Charlemagne Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 4
    My thoughts...

    1. Ewolk Victory

    The Ewolks outnumbered the Imperials

    The backdoor was a refueling station it seems and the legion was no doubt deployed elsewhere and the actual attack seemed to take only a few minutes.

    The Ewolks had apparently been booby trapping the place for hours beforehand

    The forestry is obviously stronger than Imperial metal and only AT-STs could maeuver...and even they were inhibited and eventually destroyed one by one by Chewbacca's comandeering some heavy armor.

    Really there were 12 commandoes, I think they thought a 500 troops or so could take care of them, my understanding was the ENTIRE LEGION covered very little of what was probably a 500 mile base.

    2. C-3PO

    Interpreters come in handy with Imperial Codes I imagine along with slicer droids.

    3. Boba Fett

    Fett should never have been ressurected, in retrospect I realize this. His death in RotJ shows just how pointless his life was and how by setting himself up for evil actions he set himself up for the fall to Hell (like Darth Maul and Palpy)

    His death was necessary so Han wouldn't have to stay on the run for the rest of his life.

    4. Jabba

    He is one disgusting and repulsive character, scared me as a child more than tarkin I daresay. Why? Because Jabba is like Pruneface...he is the sum of his character as is the band.

    5. The Second Death Star

    Eh it was comming full circle.
  10. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Another reason ROTJ sucks:

    Luke's plan. Let's send in Lando, Leia, Chewie, 3P0, and R2 undercover. Then I'll come in, without my saber, walk right up to Jabba, force him to let everyone go and, when all my plans stuff up (as you would expect) I'll grab a blaster. Didn't he realise that Jabba's goons were surrounding him? What a great Jedi! Good thing the Salrlacc pit was there.

    Force Lightning. Until now, the force had been mysical and lacked physical presence. Luke grabbed things and Vader choked. Now Lucas had to think of idea to make the Emperor powerful so let's make him spew lightning?

    The Emperor's demise. In a Disney cartoon it is known to kill off the villain with them falling down off a cliff. The best way, it seems, to kill a villain is something silly and involves explosions and falling. So, Lucas decided we'd have Vader throw this powerful foe off the ledge into a convenient chasm? Then an explosion? Surely the explosion was overkill?

    We really can't shoot straight. Sure the villains are always bad shots but Luke seemed to survive on the Sail Barge through shear luck. We have about one hundred of Jabba's goons and they all miss? And the one that hits him firse once, pulls his gun back and waits for Luke to attack?

    Bad deaths. Let's tie up loose ends and kill off important characters in a few silly seconds. Boba Fett was one. Then there's Admiral Piett on board the Executor and Darth Vader who dies of what???????????? He lost his hand and got struck with lightning...maybe? What a lousy death.

    R2's beeps. What happnened to the continuity editor? R2 sounds different from the first two movies. Fisher too has a croaky voice and way too much masscara.
  11. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Good list, hawk. I am especially glad to see someone else mention Carrie Fisher's eye make-up. Good grief! What was the point of that?

    The whole movie has the feel of a rush-job. I imagine that GL was thinking to himself, "I have *four* more movies (Episodes 6-9) to do before the Empire is finally destroyed. And I don't feel like doing even one! Oh, well. I'll just forget about eps 7-9 and just do what I can to tie everything up in ep 6 and forget about SW for a good, long time."
  12. Charlemagne Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 4
    Frankly some people felt Darth Vader recieving redemption was a powerful beutiful momment in film and that it shows no man is beyond recieving forgiveness for his sins.

    As a minister I applaud Lucas for having the guts to finally show that evil doesn't justify destruction.

    and the best way to destroy it is love.

    ***

    As for the Force being mystical...

    Oh for crying out loud the Force has never been anything but magic without hokey words. Call them miracles if you like but if Obi Wan had parted the dune sea I wouldn't have batted an eyelash.

    The Force lightning was pure show how wicked the Emperor truly was and the explosian was nothing less than the fires of hell accepting the great evil that had been cast down to it.

    Your attacking some of the best momments in cinema.

    ***

    You did a wonderful TPM Binary though I admit I prefer my TPM...

    So how would YOU do RotJ?

    Really RoTJ closed the series well
  13. waheennay Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2000
    star 4
    I don't agree that the stormtroopers were wusses during the battle. I never saw any running away from an Ewok. They ran away from the Scout walker commandeered by Chewie, which was firing laser blasts at them.
  14. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Charlemagne wrote: "You did a wonderful TPM Binary though I admit I prefer my TPM..." Thank you. I would definitely be interested in your version. Why not post it in the Bashers' Sanctuary or give it a thread of its own?

    I must admit that I haven't rewritten ROTJ, but perhaps that would be an interesting task...
  15. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Reasons #40-42 (out of 50) that ROTJ sucks:

    40. THE ALLIANCE BRIEFING: In Wars, the briefing before the attack on the Death Star had the feel of a serious military operation. In Jedi, the briefing is a forum for witty repartee, attended by chuckling, smirking buddies and a medical droid who has no business being there other than to fill a vacant seat. It's no wonder the Rebels got their asses kicked in Empire if this is how their top military leaders conduct themselves when the galaxy is at stake. Eventually, Luke barges in unannounced and the "meeting" breaks up with all the parliamentary procedure of porno night at the Elks Club.

    41. PARADOXICAL LESSONS IN THE FORCE: Yoda says the only way Luke can become a Jedi is to face Vader. Minutes later, he says it's unfortunate that Luke rushes to face Vader. This is in addition to Yoda's assertion in Empire that if Luke faces Vader, he'll become an agent of evil. So he needs to face Vader to become a Jedi, but he can't face Vader or else he'll become a slave to the dark side. This is a paradox on a par with the one Kirk used to confuse and blow up Nomad.

    42. VADER'S NOT-SO-SPECIAL SHUTTLE: When we first saw Vader's shuttle with its clean lines and sleek, triwing design, it seemed a fitting vessel to transport a leader of his stature. But later we find out that apparently every Imperial shuttle -- even the ones that transport supplies to work sites -- looks just like Vader's. One explanation: after Vader damaged that fancy bent-wing TIE fighter they gave him in Wars, he lost his special-ship privileges. The more likely explanation: someone at Lucasfilm was too lazy or cheap just to design and build a model for a different style of shuttlecraft.
  16. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    Carrie Fisher's eye makeup? Some people are getting really desperate now :)
  17. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    40. Those smirking buddies had every reason to be in that meeting and its because they are a part of the attack squadron, Luke just came from Dagobah after the recent passing of his teacher, Yoda.

    I'm not sure what to think about the medical droid.

    41. First off, Luke didn't finish his trainig due to his sensing of Han and Leia in pain so he ran off to Besbin untrained, got his butt kicked by Vader and lost a hand, and wound up being rescued by Leia and co.(not counting Han because he's frozen in carbonite and taken to Jabba). Second, Luke's training is almost complete and Yoda knows when he will be a Jedi because he spent 8 centuries training Jedi which is why he's says when Luke confronts Vader again, he will be a Jedi.

    42. Only those with high ranking will have their own shuttle but that doesn't count stormtroopers or imperial officers. Oh and The rebels stole that other shuttle to use it as a disguise to penetrate the shield generator on Endor.
  18. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Here's some more

    This may have been said. The dissapearance of an entire Imperial fleet? What they got scared after the DS blew up? Or did the rebels start crashing more A Wings?

    Choking Jabba? Isn't he some sort of slug? I mean, he doesn't even have a neck.

    Let's send the Falcon inside the DS. Before they used tiny "one man" fighters. It made sense. Now there is much less room and they send a juiced up cargo ship inside? Funny how the structure always remains just big enough to house the Falcon. If the Empire had put one iron bar in the middle, the rebels would be lost.

    When we get shot, we take it in the arm or hand. Whenever the good guys finally take a hit it isn't smack bang in the face like a trooper, it's always in the arm or, in Luke's case, the hand.

    Arrogant Luke. He used to be a whiney kid. Now he struts about acting like a God and calling himself a Jedi before actually becomming one. I'd love it if he was thrown in the cell with Chewie and Han. Wouldn't be long before they starting throttling the guy.

    That terrible matte shot of the Falcon and the way Lando strolls up to it. What, they couldn't get the old model?

    Vader and Luke's game of hide and seek. What was the Emperor doing at that point? Yawning?

  19. Marky-Wan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2001
    star 2
    Just correcting a few points:

    1. Yoda changing his mind:

    Yoda knows Luke has to face Vader in order to become a Jedi. This is because only a Jedi would be capable of taking out a Sith. Yoda is worried about Luke rushing to face Vader because he knows its his FATHER. He wasn't supposed to find out until afterwards - it was too much of a liability.

    Luke proved them wrong by showing the love of a father and son is more powerful than any Force.


    2. The Falcon in the DSII run:


    The tunnel they fly down is large, because it is a purpose built SERVICE TUNNEL, used while the Death Star II is under construction. Next time look at the entrance to the tunnel they fly in. So you think thats just a coincidence its a big hole with support struts round it?


    3. Ewoks

    Yes, they are cute. Yes they are annoying, but so what? If you found Sigourney Weaver's haircut in Alien annoying, does that mean they should have used a different actor? Your picking on something which is purely aesthetic, which brings me to my next point...


    4. Haircuts and makeup:


    What a thing to complain about in a movie, I mean HONESTLY what is the point? It seems to me that the only people who'd complain about such things are ones who hated the movie to begin with, and are looking for extra ammunition, albeit scraping the bottom of the barrel! YES I'd probably prefer a DIFFERENT haircut on Luke, but I'm certainly not going to condemn the entire movie for it!


    5. The primitives vs. tech battle:

    If you think that the Ewoks were 'winning' you are gravewly mistaken. The Ewoks may have THOUGHT they had a chance, but they were mrerely a distraction so the Rebels could get on with the job at hand. The only thing that saved them was Chewie gaining control of an AT-ST and turning the tide.


    6. The convenient 'pit' in the Emperor's throne room:


    It was in fact the large elevator shaft which led into his throne room - look at the script. (I don't care what it says in the novelisation, it is NOT canon).
    The explosion was from him dying a Sith lord of pure evil a demon almost - normal explosions are a) not blue and b) dont make ominous moaning noises.


    Now as a Star Wars FAN (sometimes I wonder why most of you even have this label) I urge you to pick on something more deserving - Like Star Trek.





  20. waheennay Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2000
    star 4
    A lot of nitpicking. Who cares if Vader didn't have his own shuttle, he had his own Super Star Destroyer!
  21. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Hawk, THANK YOU for bringing up that matte shot (when Han and Lando say good luck to each other and part). I have been meaning to mention that. I still can't believe that made its way into the movie.

    Also, you have a very good point about the Imperial fleet simply vanishing. This flaw is obviously a symptom of GL's attitude of "let's forget about episodes 7-9 and wrap-up everything in ROTJ, even if it seems rushed and doesn't make sense."
  22. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    We are approaching the end of the list! Here are reasons #43-45 (out of 50) that ROTJ sucks:

    43. SLOPPY CONTINUITY ERRORS: In quick cuts between two different views of a character, it's a good bet that his or her expression and/or stance will be jarringly inconsistent. Check out Bib Fortuna in the scene where Jabba refers to the newly defrosted Solo as bantha fodder. Our favorite slip, however, is the star field behind the Emperor's throne, which in every shot consists of the same group of stars crawling slowly toward the left of the screen.

    44. THAT SCENE WITH THE EWOK ON THE SPEEDER BIKE: This scene doesn't really exemplify any of the larger points in this article, but we hate it so much that we couldn't just ignore it. If Jedi weren't so darned cutesy, that Ewok would have been splattered into tree pizza and we'd have been a lot happier. Have we mentioned we hate Ewoks?

    45. GENERALLY DUMB DIALOGUE: Vader, upon seeing that Luke has constructed a lightsaber: "Your skills are complete. Indeed, you are powerful, as the Emperor has foreseen." (Wait a second -- all because he read a Time/Life book on electronics and soldered together some transistors? Does this mean Tim Allen is a Jedi?) Yoda, near death, to Luke: "Remember: a Jedi's strength flows from the Force." (That's more of a first-day lesson, isn't it, Yoda? Something tells us that Luke had that particular bit of wisdom written on a Post-it note and stuck to his X-Wing cockpit long ago.)
  23. Col mar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2000
    star 1
    RotJ didn't have any flaws, those who say it does are idiots who can't accept the film for what it is. And are probably those that accept EU for the real deal even though Lucas himself destroyed it all in TPM.

    Let's face it people, Lucas wrote it and there is nothing you can do to change it. Live with it people.

    It's done, over and complete. RotJ is here to stay whether you like it or not.


    threads like this piss me off.
  24. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    I second that notion.
  25. EternalJedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 1998
    31 USE OF EARTH SLANG AND POP CULTURE

    As someone else mentioned, that was Chewie who let out the yell. And the other films have use of Earth slang as well. "Then we'll see you in Hell!" "What the Hell do you think you're doing?" And the World War II-esque dogfight in ANH. How could he do such a thing? :)

    32. JEDI AFTERLIFE

    This one is just pure nitpicking. I suppose Anakin regained his true appearance because he was Anakin Skywalker again, and no longer Darth Vader. It's artistic license. A horribly scarred, limbless Jedi rolling around on the ground next to Obi-Wan and Yoda would have looked pretty creepy, wouldn't it?

    33. UNREALISTIC, BORING FIGHT SEQUENCES

    Yup, tapping on the shoulder is much less realistic than "Hey down there! Could you give us a hand with this?"

    34. STORMTROOPERS HAVE BECOME WUSSES

    There is something to this criticism. Considering how useless Stormtrooper armor is against blasters, and how it is supposedly designed to be effective against less-advanced weapons (that's from the RPG, but I don't know if they made it up or got it from LFL), it is pretty silly how they get taken down by Ewok weapons. It can be explained by the Ewoks knowing the terrain inside and out, and using it to their advantage, but the film didn't really show this too well (except for how they took down the AT-STs).

    35. VADER'S REAL FACE

    I'm sorry, but David Prowse really didn't look right to be Anakin Skywalker. And let's not forget that Vader's body is mostly mechanical at this point anyway -- the physical condition of what is left of his body probably had deteriorated due to his reliance on his mechanical components.

    36. BAD EDITING

    This is purely subjective. I don't see anything wrong with the editing.




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