ROTJ and its flaws

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Gharlane, Feb 6, 2001.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. EternalJedi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 1998
    37. THE ALIEN LANGUAGES ARE POORLY PRESENTED

    More pretty minor nitpicking. Yes, there is a precedent to employ subtitles, but they are used sparingly because the movies are also for children, many of whom may find reading a lot of subtitles problematic. Jabba does understand Basic, he just doesn't speak it. Obviously 3PO translates into English for the audience's benefit (to avoid the use of subtitles), but that is such a minor issue, I can't believe they even bring it up. As for "Thirty thousand, no less," 3PO could have easily been elaborating. Maybe "yoto" means "thirty thousand," and she said it twice to stress the point.

    38. INCONSISTENCY WITHIN THE ESTABLISHED UNIVERSE

    Okay, this point is complete and utter bullcrap. "Still, it strikes us as sloppy that codes on Jedi's computer screens are in alien gobbledygook language, while the tractor beam controls in Wars were in English. " Are they saying it is good that the controls are written in English, when that is just about the only case of English writing in the trilogy? For their information, ESB had computer screens written in "gobbledygook language" as well. I was going to apologize for my "sci-fi geeks who can't get a girlfriend" remark earlier, but after reading this point again, I think I'm right about them. :)

    39. YODA'S DEATH SEQUENCE

    If I just found out for sure that my worst enemy really WAS my father, I would probably look stunned and sit there like a doofus for a few minutes too. There wasn't much Luke could have done, and Yoda already made it abundantly clear that he was about to die.

    40. THE ALLIANCE BRIEFING:

    Complaining about a medical droid being present? If that is a flaw, then why was a known smuggler and criminal, who had made it perfectly clear that he wanted no part in the Rebellion, allowed to attend the "serious military operation" briefing in ANH? Certainly he had no business being there. Reason #2 "why ANH sucks."

    41. PARADOXICAL LESSONS IN THE FORCE

    I'm pretty sure that Yoda said it was unfortunate that Luke rushED to confront him. As in, past tense. As in his encounter in ESB. I don't remember anything about Luke rushING to face Vader in ROTJ. Another complete and utter bullcrap "flaw."

    42. VADER'S NOT-SO-SPECIAL SHUTTLE:

    Oh please. It's a standard transport vehicle. Why does Vader need a special, personalized vehicle to travel from a Star Destroyer to the Death Star? At least in ESB and ROTJ, he had a personalized Star Destroyer. Didn't get on in ANH. Maybe a 3rd reason why ANH sucks? (By this logic -- ANH doesn't suck in any way)

    "The more likely explanation: someone at Lucasfilm was too lazy or cheap just to design and build a model for a different style of shuttlecraft. "

    If they can give me a good reason why Vader NEEDED a different style of shuttle to travel the mile or so between the Star Destroyer and the Death Star, then this point might be worth something. Until then, it is also complete BS.

    43. SLOPPY CONTINUITY ERRORS

    You may have noticed that sometimes my cut-and-paste of titles includes colons, and somtimes it doesn't. That means my post sucks, by this sort of logic. Anyway...

    Anybody who pays that close attention to the stars in the background of several different shots *seriously* needs to get out more often.

    And speaking of continuity errors, we have reason #4 why ANH sucks: Luke's "magic cup" trick, and the teleporting R5-D4. And Vader's uncolored saber. And a shot on the Tantive IV where if R2 kept going in the same direction, he would have run into the wall.

    44. THAT SCENE WITH THE EWOK ON THE SPEEDER BIKE:

    Ever notice how at least half a dozen of the "50 reasons why ROTJ sucks" are basically the same reason -- "Ewoks suck." Get over it already. And stop using the same reason over and over again.

    45. GENERALLY DUMB DIALOGUE:

    That example is not inconsistent. It is quite likely that one of the last steps in a Jedi's training is to build his own saber. It's likely more of a "rite of passage" than a measure of the Jedi's
  2. Binary_Sunset Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Thanks to all who give their reasoned responses to the stuff I'm listing. I'm almost at the end of the list. Here are reasons #46-48 (out of 50) that ROTJ sucks:

    46. ADMIRAL ACKBAR: Sure, Admiral Ackbar looks neat, but he's quite the wishy-washy leader, judging from how Lando continually questions, ignores, and overrides his orders. Dumbest of all (though never actually mentioned in the film), Admiral Ackbar's fishlike race is called the Mon Calamari. Ha, ha, ha!

    47. DUMB RESOLUTION OF PROBLEMS: The most pathetic example of facile problem solving is the "secret back door" on the shield generator base, which means our team won't have to be bothered with devising an interesting way to break in. Luckily for them, the base is apparently staffed by the one garrison in the Empire commanded by Colonel Klink.

    48. ARTOO: Of all the main characters, Artoo is the only one who isn't handled in a totally embarrassing fashion, but there are still some inconsistencies in the presentation of his personality. He's supposed to be the brave, assured one to Threepio's sissy-boy, but in a couple of scenes he whimsically shakes and shivers with fear like Scooby-Doo. Is he into this whole Rebellion thing or not?
  3. EternalJedi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 1998
    46. ADMIRAL ACKBAR:

    Yeah, "Mon Calamari" is a much dumber name than "Walrus Man," "Hammerhead," "Wookie," or -- get this, for an alien that lives in the desert -- "Sand People." Ha, ha, ha.

    And one general disregarding his orders makes him a wishy-washy leader? He's back at HQ, and simply taking the advice of the person at the forefront of the attack.

    47. DUMB RESOLUTION OF PROBLEMS:

    The same could be said about nearly any movie. The "back door" to the shield generator is no dumber than having a "small thermal exhaust port, right below the main port" with which one hit will destroy the entire moon-sized battlestation. Or R2 conveniently being plugged into the DS computer just when our heroes are about to be crunched by the trash compactor. The heroes get by on their luck quite frequently in all three films, so picking on Jedi for that is pretty pathetic.

    48. ARTOO:

    "Of all the main characters, Artoo is the only one who isn't handled in a totally embarrassing fashion,"

    I don't see how Luke could possibly be considered to be handled in a totally embarasing fashion, except for perhaps his bad haircut.

    "there are still some inconsistencies in the presentation of his personality. He's supposed to be the brave, assured one to Threepio's sissy-boy, but in a couple of scenes he whimsically shakes and shivers with fear like Scooby-Doo. Is he into this whole Rebellion thing or not?"

    Hmmm....

    R2: *beep* *beep*?
    3PO: 'No, I don't think he likes you at all.'
    R2: *beep* *beep*?
    3PO: 'I don't like you either."

    ----

    Not terribly self-assured in that exchange.

    Or when he is hiding under that rock when Obi-Wan approaches Luke.

    Or when the shield doors are being closed for the night when Luke and Han are still missing.

    Give the little guy a break. He goes through a lot, and deserves to be a little afraid or unsure once in a while. ROTJ is certainly not the only film where he displays more than a one-dimensional, headstrong, unfailingly brave personality. "Inconsistencies in the presentation of his personality" my arse.

    ---

    Too many items on this list pick on "flaws" which are present in all of the other SW films as well. So if they are reasons that ROTJ sucks, then they are reasons that all of the others suck, too.



  4. EternalJedi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 1998
    If these guys want to point out flaws, at least look at the more meaningful ones, rather than grasping at straws and capitalizing on their hatred of Ewoks to round out the list to 50.

    The flaws that I do concede to are Harrison Ford's lazy performance, Leia's nearly nonexistant role after the first half, matting effects which really stick out now (rancor and speeder bike chase), and a bit too much slapstick humor all around -- oh, and I do miss the wittier dialogue of ESB. The brother/sister relationship was a rather contrived way of compressing the planned episodes 6 through 9 into one film, but I can live with it. I still love the film though, as I love ANH, ESB, and yes, TPM.

    How about "50 Reasons Why Jedi is Great?" Or I suppose that completely violates the original purpose of this thread. Oh well, sue me: ;-)

    1. Mark Hamill gives his best performance of the entire trilogy. Of the main three actors, he is the one that really seemed to care about acting.

    2. The final lightsaber duel was great -- very intense (if short), and the music was fantastic.

    3. Luke's realization as he stares at the mechanical stump of Vader's wrist, and then at his own mechanical hand, that he is becoming just like his father. This is actually what saves him from killing Vader, and succombing to the Dark Side completely.

    4. Luke's costume is very cool, and is the best-looking of all of his costumes (now if only they make a GOOD figure out of this outfit, instead of one goofy carded figure and 3 lame pack-in versions). The symbolism of it resembling Vader's costume is cool as well.

    Anybody else want to continue?
  5. Binary_Sunset Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Well, EternalJedi, after I finish the 50 reasons, I was going to give the 10 reasons that ROTJ doesn't totally suck. Maybe we'll see some common ground there.

    Oh, and I agree about Mark Hamill. You can tell that, of all the actors in the entire trilogy, he is the one who truly *believed*. He could have gone on to star in episodes 7-9 as a thoroughly believable Jedi Knight.
  6. MD-O Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2000
    star 3
    5. Palpatine

    Can you imagine Palpatine being portrayed any better than he was in ROTJ? His appearance and verbal sparring with Luke provided us with some of the best dialogue in the movie. He personified pure evil in a controlled manner.
    This character was simply perfect.
  7. EternalJedi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 1998
    Binary_Sunset: I've seen their list of why it doesn't totally suck. I'm saying it doesn't suck, period. :)

    Highlander II sucks. Star Trek V sucks. Battlefield Earth sucks. Street Fighter the Movie sucks. The Dungeons & Dragons movie sucks. There is no way that Jedi belongs anywhere close to the same category as these stinkers.

    The four SW films still dominate the top spot on my "favorite films of all-time" list (followed closely by Raiders of the Lost Ark and Kaze no Tani no Nausicaa). So I can never be convinced that any of the films suck. ;-)
  8. Binary_Sunset Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    EternalJedi, well there's "sucks" and then there's "sucks". Compared to all movies, ROTJ is definitely one of the better ones. But considered only as a SW movie, then it does indeed have serious shortcomings.

    Speaking of which, here are the last items on the list of reasons why ROTJ sucks:

    49. THE WIZARD OF OZ HOMAGE AT JABBA'S FRONT DOOR: Anyone who's ever seen MGM's seminal musical fantasy experiences more than a little déjà vu when Threepio knocks on Jabba's door and asks the whimsical attendant to admit him to the Emerald City -- er, rusty palace. Had there been a precedent of scene-specific homage in Wars or Empire, we might have been more forgiving on this point, but the scene as presented in jedi sticks out and degrades the overall integrity of the mythos established in the first two films.

    50. WHO'S THAT AT THE CONTROLS?: We never get to see Han and Chewie at the controls of the Millennium Falcon. All we see are Lando and that weird dude.

    51. HOW DID LUKE GET SO TOUGH?: Luke is easily beaten by Vader in their lightsaber duel in Empire, but, after no further training at all, just as easily beats Vader in Jedi. In Empire, Yoda and Kenobi explain to Luke that his training is only partly completed, but Luke leaves Dagobah anyway. When Luke returns to Yoda in Jedi, it is obviously his first (and only) return, since he says to R2-D2, "I've a promise to keep to an old friend." His last words to Yoda in Empire are that he will return, "I promise." Where did Luke get all his expertise between Empire and Jedi? There was not a long time between films: at Empire's end Lando and Chewbacca part from Luke and Leia, noting that they will meet at their rendezvous on Tatooine, where Jedi begins.
  9. Gharlane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2000
    star 2
    ?Can you imagine Palpatine being portrayed any better than he was in ROTJ??

    Yes if he would help said less then it would have been better.

    ?His appearance and verbal sparring with Luke provided us with some of the best dialogue in the movie.?

    He pretty much helped Luke resist the dark side whenever Luke was getting angry by saying that he could feel his anger. I don?t know about you, but I prefer my movies where characters get their epiphany without the main bad guy telling them what it is.

    ? He personified pure evil in a controlled manner.?

    Personified stupidity IMHO.

    ?This character was simply perfect.?

    The Imperials practically lost the whole battle because he wanted to show off. He isn?t even like the man who took over the whole Republic
  10. PMT99 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    49. There is nothing similar about both scenes between 3P0 and R2's visit to Jabba's palace and Dorothy and co.'s trip to Emerald City.

    50. Han let Lando have the falcon because it wouldn't do the rebels any good if they snuck to the planet Endor using the Falcon.

    51. Luke had time to finish his training sometime between ESB and ROTJ and Yoda knew that Luke is a bit close to being a full-fledged jedi which is why he told him "When you confront Vader, a jedi you will be" and Vader himself said that Luke's skills are complete which was why Luke was able to beat Vader.

    Gharlane-

    "If he would have said less, then he would have been better"

    But then he will be less of an evil character and more of a cardboard cut-out character.

    "He pretty much help Luke resist the darkside
    whenever he was getting angry by saying he could feel his anger. I don't know about you, but I prefer my movies where characters get their epiphany without the main bad guy telling them what it is."

    But this isn't your movie and The Emperor wanted Luke to EMBRACE the dark side, not resist it. Besides, the emperor wanted Luke to either be his new apprentice or his first victim and Luke chose not to embrace the dark side.

    "Personified stupidity, IMHO"

    You don't get it, do you?

    The Emperor is the puppetmaster and the rest of the SW characters are his puppets and he created this whole chain of events we see in the films and nobody would have pulled this off like the emperor could.

    "The Imperials practically lost the whole the whole battle because he wanted to show off. He isn't even like the man who took over the whole Republic"

    Actually he is like the man who took over the Republic only he took that for granted when he became arrogant and overconfident and that was his downfall.
  11. Gharlane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2000
    star 2
    "51. Luke had time to finish his training sometime between ESB and ROTJ and Yoda knew that Luke is a bit close to being a full-fledged jedi which is why he told him "When you confront Vader, a jedi you will be" and Vader himself said that Luke's skills are complete which was why Luke was able to beat Vader."

    Where in the movie did it say that Luke finished his training between ESB and ROTJ. The film only left us guessing on where he built the lightsaber and where he got to finish the retraining. In my rewrite I pretty much addressed the problem by beginning the movie with Yoda's death and Luke finishing the training.

    "But this isn't your movie and The Emperor wanted Luke to EMBRACE the dark side, not resist it. Besides, the emperor wanted Luke to either be his new apprentice or his first victim and Luke chose not to embrace the dark side."

    Whenever Luke got angry the Emperor told him to embrace it and its only effect would be Luke CONTROLLING his anger.

    "Actually he is like the man who took over the Republic only he took that for granted when he became arrogant and overconfident and that was his downfall."

    Or Kasdan and Lucas got lazy and decided to do a bad job on the character and the space battle.
  12. PMT99 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Kazdan and Lucas did not do a bad job on the emperor and I know several people who liked the space battle.
  13. Binary_Sunset Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Welcome back, Gharlane! This thread has missed your posts for too long. Happy days are here again!

    Now, just to be fair to our esteemed opponents, I want to post the "10 Reasons Why Jedi Doesn't Totally Suck". Here are the first five:

    1. LUKE'S GANGPLANK WALK: The suspense leading up to Luke's jump-off and bounce-back on the skiff still gets us biting our nails, and the first seven or eight seconds of the ensuing battle are actually pretty exciting. Too bad the rest of the melee deteriorates into slapstick.

    2. THE EMPEROR'S ARRIVAL AT THE DEATH STAR: One of the best examples of the power and importance of the Emperor is the hundreds of TIE fighters ceremoniously swarming like bees around the docking bay that receives him. The following interior shot is backed by the trilogy's loudest, scariest, and best use of the "Imperial March" theme.

    3. THE SPEEDER BIKE CHASE: The only time the forests of Endor don't look boring is during the speeder bike chase -- primarily because most of us have never seen trees zipping by our heads at 200 mph.

    4. THE EMPEROR: It was wise to cast human Ian McDiarmid, and not another damn Muppet, as the Emperor. He exudes pure, seductive evil, and the scenes with him are the best in the film. A couple are even among the best in the trilogy.

    5. WEDGE'S PROMOTION: Wedge Antilles would have been number one on our list of side characters, but he appears in all three films, so we consider him one of the main bunch. In Jedi he's deservedly been promoted to Red Leader and gets to fire the decisive shot that leads to the second Death Star's explosion. Good shooting, Wedge!
  14. Binary_Sunset Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Gharlane wrote: "He [the Emperor] pretty much helped Luke resist the dark side whenever Luke was getting angry by saying that he could feel his anger." That is a very good point. Although the Luke-Vader-Emperor scenes are the high point of a disappointing chapter of the SW saga, they are certainly not without their problems. The major problem is that they are psychologically unbelievable. In addition to your point is the fact that the Emperor's attempts at seducing Luke are so bald and obvious that it is difficult to see how Luke could even be tempted. It is as though the Emperor says, "Luke, why don't you become evil with us and help destroy all that you and your friends have fought and suffered for?" Well, duh, no thank you.

    Compare that with Vader's offer in ESB: "We can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy." Now that at least is believable. We can understand how that can at least be somewhat tempting. Vader is saying, "This war is causing untold suffering. Let's you and me destroy the evil Emperor and then we, as father and son, can rule over a peaceful and ordered galaxy."
  15. Gharlane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2000
    star 2
    "and I know several people who liked the space battle"

    Could they please tell me why hitting the bridge of a Super Star Destroyer would send it plummeting into the DS2. The only possible solution I could think of was that somehow the engines and bridge were linked and that the Rebel kamikaze pilot somehow activated the engines when he blew up the bridge thus causing the accident.
  16. PMT99 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Binary-

    I will tell you just like I told Gharlane, THE EMPEROR DID NOT WANT LUKE TO RESIST THE DARKSIDE, HE WANTED HIM TO EMBRACE IT and of course Gharlane made a point when he said that only helped Luke control his anger because he didn't want to end up like Anakin.

    Gharlane-

    The super star destroyer just lost its reflector shield when the rebels destroyed whatever it was they hit and you know the rest.

  17. Gharlane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2000
    star 2
    "The super star destroyer just lost its reflector shield when the rebels destroyed whatever it was they hit and you know the rest."

    They hit the bridge, but how was it that destroying the bridge resulted in the activation of the engines causing the Executor to collide with DS2?

  18. PMT99 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Once the bridge was destroyed, the engines have automatically deactivated itself causing the executor to make a nosedive into the DS2.

    Not all ships have to be indestructible and especially the executor.
  19. Binary_Sunset Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Finally, here are reasons #6-10 why ROTJ doesn't totally suck:

    6. THE AT-STS: The scout walkers may blow up too easily and resemble rampaging chickens, but they're still wonderfully designed and are animated inside a complex environment more or less flawlessly. If only they'd stepped on a few more Ewoks (Have we mentioned we hate Ewoks?).

    7. THE FINAL SPACE BATTLE: No space combat before or since has taken such consistent advantage of all three axes of movement. The scenes are exceptionally well choreographed, and it's always clear what's going on -- compare Jedi's battle to the confusing mess of planes and spaceships that zip around aimlessly in the final scenes of ID4.

    8. OUTRUNNING THE DEATH STAR EXPLOSION: Setting aside the fact that Lando really should have died, the Falcon outrunning the explosive wave is always impressive. Nowadays, every action film made seems to have a shot like this. Problem is, movies like The Long Kiss Goodnight expect us to believe that not only spaceships but people on foot can outrun explosions. Yeah, right.

    9. THE AT-AT ON ENDOR: Seeing an AT-AT emerge from the forests of Endor at night adds a welcome dark and moody touch to the film. When it delivers Luke to Vader, Jedi almost feels like Empire for a few wonderful seconds.

    10. VADER'S SKELETON: If you have a laser disc player or a good enough videotape, you can pause and see Vader's insides lit up by lightning as he hoists the Emperor above his head. Someone at Lucasfilm took the time to make those fleeting shots count, designing a skeleton for the Dark Lord that is mostly human but partially bionic. Little things do, indeed, mean a lot.
  20. PMT99 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Binary-

    We've heard enough about your hatred for the ewoks and its now time for you to swallow it with pride.
  21. Gharlane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2000
    star 2
    "Once the bridge was destroyed, the engines have automatically deactivated itself causing the executor to make a nosedive into the DS2."

    Why would the Executor nosedive into the DS2 if it was in orbit around the Sanctuary moon, Endor or the DS2? The only way that would happen is if the engines were activated, but they weren't during the battle so somehow the Rebels knocked out the bridge causing the engines to go online. I believe it would be a good time for you to quote Irving's hobgoblin quote.


    "We've heard enough about your hatred for the ewoks and its now time for you to swallow it with pride."

    We aren't swallowing anything. The Ewoks are just plain stupid. I don't even want to know who suggested it to Mr. Lucas.


  22. PMT99 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    The bridge was destroyed, everyone onboard the bridge is dead which means the executor lost control and made a nosedive onto the DS2.

    You should know that if it wasn't for the ewoks, the rebels would have never been able to win their final battle against the empire.
  23. Gharlane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2000
    star 2
    "The bridge was destroyed, everyone onboard the bridge is dead which means the executor lost control and made a nosedive onto the DS2."

    Explain how blowing up the bridge on a SSD caused the engines to be activated thus causing this little fiasco or did you not know that for something to nosedive in space that there must be a force pushing it or pulling it since there is NO gravity in space.

  24. PMT99 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Its like flying an airplane.

    When the controls are malfunctioning,the entire crew is dead,or that noone is flying the plane, then the plane loses control and crashes.

    That's what happened to the SSD and its obvious that it was way too close to the death star which is probably the reason why it crashed.
  25. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    I hate getting technical about stuff like this, since it shouldn't have to be explained if you are sufficiently immersed in the movie. There isn't much that would cuase me to lose my 'willing suspension of disbelief', though obviously you lost it, so more stuff NEEDS explanation.

    So, here is my lame attempt.

    "There is no gravity in space"

    False. There is gravity EVERYWHERE in space...it's just that the gravitational forces are almost alway approaching zero. If there were no gravity, the Planets would not revolve around the sun, and the stars around the core, etc. The Executor, however, was in close proximity to a planet/moon, which would exert enought gravitational force to 'nudge it' in the right direction. Without stearage, the force of gravity would continue to accelerate the ship into the proper trajectory, until the engines would be aligned to accelerate the descent even faster.

    The death star would also exert a gravitational pull, due to it's immense size. While it would not be enough to pull the SSD from orbit, it is enough to rationalize the SSD ramming it, of all things.

    See, you can rationalize anything, if you want to. You just don't care enough to, since the movie already 'lost' you. Too bad for you.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.