ROTS Is Not The Darkest Of All The SW Films

I don't think you can't include the suspense or the suprises of ESB and RotS in this discussion as it is not at all fair to RotS. We all knew before hand that Anakin would turn to the darkside and that the Empire would be established. Now think about if we saw the 6 Star Wars movies in numerical order or even RotJ before ESB. We would all know that Luke is Vader's son. Think about how less suspenseful and dramatic the arc of ESB is then. This is essentially what happened to RotS. This is why I think people feel that there isn't that much inpending doom is that we KNOW that Obi-Wan and Yoda are going to live and that the twins will be born and bring down the Empire. But look at it from the pov of someone who doesn't know. You have to get the feeling that either if not both Yoda and Obi-Wan would die. To fairly judge the two I think you have to look at both as though you don?t know what is going to happen.

"Dooku get's chopped up, Mace loses a hand, and Children are mentioned to be slaughtered. These elements feel as though they are there just to honor the rating."

As for the point about the gratuity of the violence in RotS I will say that there is a purpose for it. Let's look at Count Dooku. Anakin kills a helpless and unarmed (literally) prisoner. I think they had Dooku's hands cut off to show that, unlike Palpatine, Dooku was really harmless. I mean seriously what was he going to do? Anakin had Dooku's lightsaber and Dooku had no hands. This is the difference between Palps and Dooku. Palps was really too dangerous to let live, but Dooku? What was he going to bite at his shins? Also the reason that the children are mentioned to be killed is not just to jack up the rating but to show what Anakin was willing to do and how far he had fallen.
The youngling slaughter alone would not have made it a PG-13 movie. I think the Anakin burning scene is what made it a PG-13 movie. Without that I think that it would have been a PG movie. And there were audible gasps and an "Oh no" when the younglings just showed up on the screen with Anakin.

As Neo said when the Han-sicle comes crashing down to the ground that is a very dark moment. However a short time later we are informed that he is alive and in perfect hibernation. This is like the rest of ESB. While there are implications and the danger that the heroes will die they don?t, while in RotS many of them do.

Even the opening battle in RotS, listed as light and a victory in previous posts, is dark when you think about it. Sure there are bright colors, humor, R2-D2, funny sounding droids and the good guys seemingly win, where does it end? It?s all a set up. It is all a set up by Palps to kill Obi-Wan and have Anakin kill Dooku and test if he can be turned, and for the most part he succeeds. This is what brings it down dark is because at the end of the battle Anakin just took a huge step to the dark side. He even recognizes it ?I shouldn?t? and yet he still does it. It is just a test to see if Anakin can be turned and he passes. There is a very strong theme in the PT that things are not as they appear (see TPM parade, Palpatine). This is the case with the opening battle. It looks and sounds campy and fun but in reality it is much more sinister.

"I really don't see that the trilogies can be compared on any level other than literal paralells inside the films. Dialog and mirroring and such."

Let us look at some these parrallels between the main characters.

ESB: Luke goes to hell. But he comes out the other side victorious in that he did not turn to the dark side, the villians' stated goal. Vader went to Cloud City to turn Luke and he failed. The light side won here. Luke looses a hand yet Luke's new hand seems to mash with his body. All he gets is a slight prick and a wince. Vader tells Luke that the only way to save his friends but he stays on the light side and is willing to sacrifice himself for this.

RotS: Anakin goes to hell. Unlike Luke Anakin does not come out. He is consumed by the fires of Hell. The villian's stated goal was to turn An

 

WedgeFitso, that was brilliant

 

Wedge Fisto-- Your re-statement of the facts of each movie is accurate. however, as was the case with every PT film, there is no indication of the scope of the problem in ROTS. Do we ever get an idea that people are being oppressed by palpatine or the Sith? Is he making anyone suffer? All of the politicians are cheering him on! They are happily making him Emperor. The film does not provide any scope on what the problem really is. There ar even threads in this forum asking is the empire even bad?" which in light of the lack of presentation of any evil activity on behalf of the empire is a valid question.

The only people who seem to get screwed in ROTS are the Jedi and Padme. And those trade fed guys we never liked anyway. Aside from that, everyone else seems like they're on the come up. We as fans who know all the intimate details of the storyline are once again forced to bring our own spoiler/forum knowledge to create the "darkness" of the film. Is it ever even stated that there is no hope for the galaxy? do the Jedi ever say "we cannot defeat the Sith"? Is it ever even stated that "Luke and Leia are our only hope"???? These are basic elements of the story and it's never even addressed.

This is the case in all the PT films. Gl has issues showing the audience his story. So much of it is left extrapolation. As a result much of these films is just being created in our heads.


And for those who did not realize before, I was joking about Tarkin.

 

This is the case in all the PT films. Gl has issues showing the audience his story. So much of it is left extrapolation. As a result much of these films is just being created in our heads.

But then about how much of the potential story we miss out on with the 3-year timeline gap between ANH and ESB. Who was the bounty hunter on Ord Mandell? What other run-ins has the Rebellion had with the Empire before the Battles of Yavin and Hoth? How did Luke get to be a Commander? What happens to Luke between ESB and ROTJ to see such a drastic increase in his powers and composure? Why don't we know how the Empire got a second Death Star together so quickly, and when did Vader find out about Luke? And why are so few people actually mentioned by name? We don't even know Luke's last name is Skywalker until he's rescuing Leia!

That's what all novels, videogames, trading cards etc are for. Lucas always sticks to the main story and leaves plenty of scope for the other events to be covered elsewhere.

 

ROTS is darker for sure,I mean slaughtering children,Dooku`s death,Anakin charred on Mustafar

 

Green Sword, SITH, like EMPIRE, is a character driven film...and that's why it works on a personal level. Padme and the Jedi are the main characters, it's their story, so they're the only ones we need or should care to see suffer from Palpatine's acts. I must have missed the scenes in the OT when they explored all of the evil things the Empire did to its citizens. I swear the focus was on a small group of rebels...

 

I don't know about ROTS being dark but it sure was dark in that theater. I got scared.

 

In ROTS, we find out that Palpatine becomes a dictator. Padme talks about the end of democracy, as well as Obi-wan. By ANH, the galaxy is at war and people are getting sick of the Empire. With the death of Alderaan, more star systems began to join the Alliance. Just as Leia predicted. By ROTJ, everyone is glad to be free of Palpatine.

 

My guess, based on what Vader told Luke, is that the continuing wars have bankrupted the once wealthy Republic/Empire. People don't like it when they don't make money.

 

that's why Lucas made the PT meesa thinks...just kidding. ROTS is by far the darker film.

 

The point is, when Palpatine first takes control and turn's the Republic into an Empire, he's popular. Very few people actually oppose him at the start because they want a "strong" leader who can offer freedom and liberty against the tyranical Jedi. This is the case with ALL dictators....

It's only much later on that people really start to miss their freedoms and begin to rise up.

 

Well Esb is very hard and scary ROTS easily kiks anus over ESB

 

ROTS is good but I don't know if it kicks the anus out of ESB that is still an excellent.

 

I would say ROTS is darker because more is lost. In ESB, the Rebels manage to get away to fight another day. By the end of RotS, the Jedi are done.

 

I can't believe there are people arguing that ROTS isn't dark because the Emperor doesn't really seem evil in the film. Of course, apart from engineering a war which costs thousands of lives, betraying his own apprentice and former allies, turning the greatest Jedi to the dark side, wiping out the Jedi Order, and eliminating democracy, what has Palpy ever done to make anyone hate him?

 

I think that Revenege of the Sith is the darkest, simply because it shows the journey of a good man who descends into evil. He ironically loses his wife by trying to save her. All that comes after this film is leading up to his eventual redemption.

There were dark elements to Episodes I and II, I thought. In Ep. 1, a small child (Anakin) gets taken away from his mother, who is being held in slavery - not exactly cheerful stuff.

Ep II., kid's mom dies due to abuse/neglect at hands of Tuskin Raiders, kid goes nuts and kills off adult and young Tusken Raiders. Again, not a walk in the park.

I think ROTS takes first prize, though.

I saw The Empire Strikes Back as being a steppping stone to ultimate victory for the good guys in Return of the Jedi. I knew that Han would be saved in the next film and that the good guys would prevail.

Rather than seeing ESB as being dark, I saw the whole thing - including Luke's confrontation with Vader - as evidence of Luke's growing maturity and training. It contained dark aspects, but overall, I feel that the Sith film is darker.

 

The only living persons that know what the Emperor has done are the Jedi, and of course there all in exile. So no one apart from them has any clue about who Palpatine really is, and the things he's done.

The majority consensus now in the Republic is "He's a good guy, who's restored freedom to the galaxy," etc. This perception by the masses of characters in ROTS of "Hero Palpatine," reflects back on the audience, and diminishes his aura of being this tyrannical, evil monster that we all knew him to be in ROTJ.

These personal memories, combined with the lack of "fear" and "dread" being exuded upon the Republic by Palpatine, only further detracts from ROTS being the ultra-dark film it attempts to be. I mean, how can a film be so dark when practically everybody's happy with the way things are at the end?

 

The only living persons that know what the Emperor has done are the Jedi, and of course there all in exile. So no one apart from them has any clue about who Palpatine really is, and the things he's done.

The majority consensus now in the Republic is "He's a good guy, who's restored freedom to the galaxy," etc. This perception by the masses of characters in ROTS of "Hero Palpatine," reflects back on the audience, and diminishes his aura of being this tyrannical, evil monster that we all knew him to be in ROTJ.

These personal memories, combined with the lack of "fear" and "dread" being exuded upon the Republic by Palpatine, only further detracts from ROTS being the ultra-dark film it attempts to be. I mean, how can a film be so dark when practically everybody's happy with the way things are at the end?


The characters in the film don't know they've been duped, and now live in a Nazi state, that's why it's not dark? okie, dokie.

 

How can they not know they've been duped, but at the same time be aware they now live in a Nazi state? Oxymoron. BTW, this was just a response to Darth_Homer's post. It's not my whole argument by any means.

 

You lose, General Fruitfly.

RotS is darker.

ESB is better.

 

How can they not know they've been duped, but at the same time be aware they now live in a Nazi state? Oxymoron

It's not an oxymoron because my comment didn't say that. [The characters in the film don't know they've been duped, and now live in a Nazi state,]

They don't yet realize that they do live in a Nazi state, because they have been duped. Is that better?

Also, just because the general public doesn't realize the depth of Palpatines evil, doesn't diminish the evil portent of the movie, it actually adds to it. That's the horror. An entire universe was completely fooled and continued to be so for many years. The viewer is witnessing it, just like a train wreck, you see it about to happen, no one realizes it but you, but you can't do anything to stop it. It's a nightmare.

 

Of course the Empire is popular at first, that's the way it has to be. We don't need to know any EU material or see the OT to know the Empire is evil because we know Palpatine is evil. It's ANH up until the destruction of Alderaan that asks the audience to make the leap of faith and just trust the rebels that the Empire is bad. The PT lets the audience see for itself based on what Palpatine did to create the Empire.

 

Damon D- You completely misunderstand my point. It's not details we need. it is presentation of what is bad. Presumably the Sith and the Empire are evil. It should be demonstrated in ROTS at some point. What is really at stake if Palps becomes Emperor? Do we know? Outside of the Jedi getting screwed it does not seem like much.

We lose "democracy"? What does that mean? None of it is shown.

In ANH we see the effects of the Empire immediately. They are running check points on citizens even in the outer rim. And when they have a problem they handle it by murdering Luke's aunt and uncle. We see them charred. This is not due processs. It is brutal trynany. We then see Vader as a vicious tyrant leading a campaign of genocide. A whole planet is blown up by the "government"!

So once again the scope of what the "evil" of the Empire is very apparent in ANH. in ROTS we get none of this.

 

um..order 66, the destruction of the JEdi who were once proud protector's of the republic is shown in ROTS, that's pretty bad.