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[ROTS] Let's Talk Prophecy

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by GRAND_MOFF_KEVIN, May 21, 2005.

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    GRAND_MOFF_KEVIN Jedi Master star 5

    Jul 4, 2004
    Most people around the JC believe that when Vader killed Palps in ROTJ that he fufilled the prophacy. However I believe he fufilled it in ROTS. Why you Ask? Easy, two sith (palps and vader), two jedi (Obi-Wan and Yoda). Anyway just my thoughts.

    Good to go. Thanks, G_M.
  2. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    May 17, 2003
    Kevin, you miss one critical point.
    The prophecy is to achieve balance by destroying the Sith.
    It isn't a physical balance (even if that were true balance isn't achieved in ROTS. There are the twins as well as other Jedi.)

    It is only when he destroys the sith that it is complete.

  3. Calamarian

    Calamarian Jedi Youngling

    May 4, 2005
    I think that Anakin fufilled the prophecy both indirectly and by proxy. Unfortunately, what Qui-Gon and Obi-wan failed to consider was that the prophecy never specified HOW Anakin would bring balence to the Force,eg;[directly or by proxy(proxy=having two children who would then do at least part of the work of bringing balence to the Force],HOW LONG it would take to bring balence to the Force(I guess that Qui-Gon must have thought that Anakin would bring balence to the Force in a matter of months and that NO ONE anticipated that the AMOUNT OF TIME required to bring balence to the Force would occur over decades.
  4. stormcloud8

    stormcloud8 Jedi Master star 4

    May 24, 2002
    I believe the prophecy is about equal balance of Light and Dark. Both the Sith and Jedi deal in absolutes, contrary to what Obi-Wan believes. I think the Force dictated that it was time for the old ways to go, time for a new interpretation of the Force to be born. Thus Anakin Skywalker was the hand of the Force, charged with wiping out both Jedi and Sith so that the balance could be achieved.

    At the end, we are left with balance - both Jedi and Sith are gone, and now we have a new form of Jedi. Luke Skywalker is a mix of Dark and Light, true balance. He uses the power of the Dark Side to fight evil, but never gives in to evil. He uses his attachments for good purpose, and does not allow them to turn to the Dark Side.

    Sidious had it absolutely right - in order to understand the greater mysteries of the Force, you must know both Light and Dark. But the Sith were unable to know Light, and the Jedi unable to know Dark. Thus their hardline interpretations of the Force needed to be wiped out.
  5. Mos_Eisley_Max

    Mos_Eisley_Max Jedi Youngling

    Jul 20, 2002
    Wow, stormcloud. That is a sweet interpretation.

    To add to that, Vader/Anakin acheives balance by detroying the Sith (Palps) out of compassion for his son. When this is done, Anakin now exists having the knowledge of both the light and dark sides of the force (similar to Luke in stormclouds theory); therefore, bringing balance in the absence of Jedi (light) & Sith (dark).
  6. qui_gon_jinn_83

    qui_gon_jinn_83 Jedi Master star 1

    Sep 18, 2002
    stormcloud8, you really, really phrased that well. And I believe that is a very vaild view on the prophecy.

    It is just so interesting that Lucas chose to make both Sith and Jedi actually be quite equal when you think about it. It really, really enhances the OT I believe, with Yoda kind of letting go of some of the old ways and whatnot.
  7. Zyrkon

    Zyrkon Jedi Youngling

    Apr 22, 2004
    To be honest, the only moment in ROTS that I didn't liked was when Yoda said that the prophecy might have been misread. First, I saw it like a quick way to get something out of the way because it didn't made sense anymore. But now, I see it differently. I agree with both Calamarian and storm, but a little more with Calamarian. There was no HOW, WHEN, WHERE in the prophecy.

    As for what storm said, maybe Anakin's task was to get rid of the Sith and someone else's (Luke) destiny was to reform the Jedi, hence the way to use the force.

    Hope this made sense, I have to many things running in my head at the same time 8-} ...
  8. Darth_Patton00

    Darth_Patton00 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Apr 9, 2005
    I agree with Stormcloud8.
  9. Myri_Antilles

    Myri_Antilles Jedi Padawan star 4

    Aug 3, 2004
    It certainly attatches significance (sp?) to Luke's choice of black Jedi robes... [face_thinking]
  10. slimybug

    slimybug Jedi Master star 5

    Aug 14, 2001
    No offense Kevin, but that' squite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever herard. Balnce to the force because there's two jedi and two sith dude, it aint in numbers of Jedi. What, do you think their weight has to be balanced? What if Yoda got really fat on Dagobah. Do you think that the Jedi would have been looking forward to the Chosen One, and Qui-Gon would have fought so hard for him if that's what he did? It's quite common knowledge that bringing balance to the force meant destroying the Sith and the dark cloud they'd created over the force. Heck, in AOTC, Mace says outright how the Sith have clouded the Jedi's ability to see, and have brought unbalance to the force.

    So anyway, there you go!

  11. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    May 18, 2002
    Calm down, slimy. You'd be surprised how many people have argued that balance means numerical equality between Jedi and Sith, not no Sith whatsoever.

    In fact, I'd be willing to bet that Obi-Wan's line "is he not to destroy the Sith and bring Balance to the Force" is to help clear up any misunderstanding regarding the Prophecy.

    Luke asking Yoda "Is Darth Vader my father?" in ROTJ was necessary because so many people believed Vader was lying in ESB when he told Luke he was his father.

    storm - when did Luke use the Dark Side? Force choking the Gamorrean Guards. Trying to kill the Emperor. Trying to kill Vader.

    When did he become a Jedi Knight and when did Vader start to become redeemed? When he threw away his lightsaber and decided he would rather die than join the Dark Side.

    I don't think Luke starts a New Jedi Order that is equally balanced between light and dark.

    I think the problem with the Jedi Order was on the problem of attachments. Love is not necessarily a bad thing, it can be a very powerful force for good. Weirdo twisted love like Anakin's is very, very dangerous, but Luke's stubborn love for his father changed the fate of the universe.

    I can't see Luke using the Dark Side all the time - not only is its power addictive, it is all about personal gain, inward thinking, exploitation of others.

    Trying to keep the Dark Side "in balance" sounds dangerous, and sounds like something Dooku would rationalize.

    As far as the nature of Prophecy goes, I posted in another thread that prophecy MUST, by its very nature, be vague.

    It's not an instruction booklet on how to act when things go sour - it tells people what is going to happen whether they like it or not. It basically predicts the free will choice of certain individuals and how those choices will play out.

    The problem with the Jedi is that they had no idea how far Anakin could fall before he was redeemed. They just assumed that they themselves could do nothing about the rise of the Dark Side, and it was all on Anakin's shoulders.
  12. Spare_Parts

    Spare_Parts Jedi Youngling star 1

    May 24, 2002
    ^ Yeah using the dark side for a good purpose sounds exactly like Dooku. Also Yoda warns Luke about the dangers of starting down the dark path and how it's something you shouldn't do. It sounds like you can?t be on both sides of the force, it?s one or the other.

    I don?t think balance of the force means having equal halves of the force. It means having no Sith and only the light side which is exactly what we end up with at the end of the saga when Anakin fulfils the prophecy.

    Like Garth said I think it?s the Jedi forbidding attachments that gets them into trouble. Luke showed how attachment can be bad in ESB when he goes off to save his friends and how attachments can be good like how his love for his father made Anakin ?see the light? in ROTJ.

    I?ve got a question about the prophecy though.

    Is there one prophecy for the Jedi and one for the Sith? Do the Sith believe in the chosen one? Maybe someone who has read the novel can shed some light.
  13. origjedi

    origjedi Jedi Youngling star 3

    Aug 27, 2001

    The Prophecy seemed like some fairy tale the Jedi had heard of the more they talked about it. No one seemed certain as to exactly what it said about the Chosen One. Which is actually good because then everyone watching the movie would have a checklist of everything Anakin did and made sure he performed the duties the Prophecy detailed about him, which would have made the movies alot lamer. The Prophecy also didn't say what would happen. For instance:
    -oh, by the way, all the Jedi will be destroyed except for two.
    -the Dark Lord will take over
    -clones will be heavily involved
    -Republic will be crushed
    -It will take decades, etc.

    Also, I also don't think that Luke was a mix of dark side power because that tells me he purposely used dark side powers and I don't believe he did. Gamorrean guard choking? If it's dark side, who taught him? Vader didn't, Sid didn't. It seemed something that anyone with Force power can do. He didn't kill the guards. Yet, when Anakin used it on Padme, he did want to kill her. But did Sid teach this to him? Off camera, maybe? Didn't seem like there was time, but who knows. Yes, Luke was obviously in the dark side when he was hammering away at Vader's lightsaber in ROTJ, but I feel he lost control and was taken over by his anger of Vader threatening to convert Leia if he did not turn. He didn't do it on purpose.

    And ultimately, to me, for someone to want to know the dark side as well as the good side is someone in a quest for power. For, to arrive at the dark side, one must give in to something: fear, anger, aggresion, something bad. And I don't think a Jedi would want this to happen. It could be said if Luke was a Jedi mixed with good and dark side powers, why can't he considered a Sith as well? A person (at least IMHO) cannot serve both the good and dark side of the Force. To me, that is not balance, it is turmoil. Look at Vader. He joined the dark side but still had good in him, he just had no reason to believe in that part of himself because he believed he failed Padme. As Luke said:
    "It is the part of you you've only forgotten".
    "I feel the conflict within you, let go of your hate"!
    Only when he discovered Luke existed to did he begin to believe again. Yes, he served the Emperor, but he really was a prisoner to himself.

    Not trying to step on any toes, just relaying my opinion...:)
  14. Harlowe Thrombey

    Harlowe Thrombey Jedi Youngling star 2

    Feb 19, 1999
    This is kind of related to this discussion...I assumed that there were more Jedi left spread out around the galaxy. After all, Obi-Wan and Yoda changed the signal to keep other Jedi away. I also assumed that that would be consistent with Vader "hunting down" all the Jedi (other than the purge we see onscreen in ROTS.)

    My take on the issue is that Yoda and gang were questioning the prophecy because things were going so unexpectedly, but in the end (ROTJ) Vader does bring balance by destroying the Sith (the Emperor.)
  15. Lexi

    Lexi Jedi Master star 4

    Oct 9, 2002
    I've always interpreted the Prophecy as destroying all the Sith. Why else would Obi-Wan say: "Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?". It doesn't get any clearer than that. Yoda's line "The Prophecy, misread could have been" only shows us that it's not going to happen the way the Jedi have pictured it. I mean, they hardly thought that the Chosen One would first turn to the Dark side before fulfilling his destiny.

    As for Luke using the Dark Side. Maybe he does to some extent at first, but it's only to show us how close he came to follow the same path as his father. But in the end, he decides against it. When the Emperor tells him that his hate makes him powerful, Luke realizes what he's doing and turns off his lightsaber. He doesn't kill his father and stays on the Light side of the Force.
  16. stormcloud8

    stormcloud8 Jedi Master star 4

    May 24, 2002
    Well Lucas uses visual clues to tell you what he's thinking...and what does Luke show up wearing at the start of ROTJ? All black. That's a sign that Lucas wants us to know Luke is different. Sure, he fights for the good guys, but he embraces the dark heritage of his father. He doesn't reject Vader and hold to some high moral ground. He finds the good inside the bad and focuses on that.

    The Jedi were restricted by rules. They lost touch with the will of the Force. The Sith were driven by greed and lust. They also lost touch with the will of the Force. Luke was never brainwashed or indoctrinated by either cult, he grew up and then was taught the ways of the Force as a man, free to make his own way. And you'll notice that Yoda and Obi-Wan have definitely changed their perspective on the Force once the OT rolls around. In a way, Qui-Gon is their new master and teacher, instructing them to trust in the Force, and not the Jedi Code which is a system of red tape and rules.

    In a way, I think the events of ROTS and the PT are a little bit of a stab at organized religion by Lucas. I think the point I'm trying to get at is that the Jedi and Sith are like organized religions driven by dogma. Luke, on the other hand, is in touch with the Force on a more spiritual level, as Qui-Gon was. That's what I think balance means. Being in touch with the Force spiritually, and not through a series of rules and commands.
  17. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    May 18, 2002
    Meh. I think you go too far. The Jedi are cautious for a reason.

    The 2 Jedi we see in the films turn to the Dark Side cause incalculable damage - Dooku and Anakin.

    If they opened themselves to the possibility of "learning" the Dark Side in balance with the Light Side, you'd have a lot more troublesome Force users.

    Many of the Jedi problems, I agree are not listening to the Living Force - but the Living Force is not the Dark Side.

    Getting off of Coruscant, and becoming independent, do not mean the entire Jedi Code is suspect.

    I can see the problem with the Jedi - they're serving the Republic and the Senate, acting as peacekeepers, so they rely more and more on the Unifying Force, which lets them "see" the future to a certain extent.

    But it's more difficult to see the rise of the Dark Side, or to decide what to do about it.
  18. stormcloud8

    stormcloud8 Jedi Master star 4

    May 24, 2002
    I think the Jedi have good intentions, but they're lost. They worry about pleasing the Senate, the Chancellor. They don't follow the Force, they follow rules.

    After all, it was the Jedi who conquered Palpatine's Empire for him...
  19. origjedi

    origjedi Jedi Youngling star 3

    Aug 27, 2001
    I do believe that Qui-Gon had a deeper sense of the Force than most other Jedi by focusing on the Living Force, but to me that doesn't mean the Jedi code wasn't viable anymore. The Jedi code exists because the Jedi need to be responsible for their actions. When someone has that great a power, there must be accountability. The Jedi aren't standing around holding peace signs or holding rallies at their local government office, they have a gift that they have dedicated their lives to learn how to apply this gift to help others at their own personal sacrifice. They can't afford to let their anger or personal feelings dictate their actions, which the Code I believe addresses. It can have dire consequences for themselves or others. A Jedi can't say, "Well, I really screwed up and got mad and killed so-and-so by accident, but hey, they're aren't rules about controlling my actions, so what the heck? What is the Republic going to do, arrest me? I'm a Jedi, they need me. I'll just say it was self-defense". Or, "You know, I've really wanted to go out with that Quenn from Naboo. I'll just wave my hand and she'll be taking me out and paying for it!" A Jedi cannot abuse the power and must be accountable if he or she does. Even Qui-Gon said "We cannot use our power to help her", referring to Queen Amidala trying to convince Boss Nass to help them. He knew the Force isn't for that kind of application and I feel he learned that from the Code. The thing is, they are still people or creatures. They are and will never be perfect. And yet, they still have a choice as to what they will do with their lives even after they have learned the good side. It is not unchangeable. Dooku was taught to be a Jedi by the highest Jedi master, Yoda, and still chose the dark side. He was free to make his own choice. It was evident to me his lust for power made him switch, especially after his "I've become more powerful than any Jedi, even you", referring to Yoda. Also, when he tried to recruit OB1 to help him "destroy the Sith". He, a former Jedi, wanted to be on top. Anakin was taught the good side and yet he chose the dark side of his own free will. Yes, Sidious manipulated him, but he still chose. Yoda had already told him that death is a part of life, so he had already received counsel on what he should do about his dreams. Yoda never gave Anakin a "listen to me or else" kind of answer, he allowed Anakin to make his own decision, hopefully based on his advice.

    I believe that the Jedi depended TOO MUCH on the Jedi Code and were losing their focus on the Living Force. It was through their own actions that weakend the Jedi, not that the Code was at fault. If being a Jedi was just following a set of rules, than anyone could have been a Jedi. I feel the Code is a guide to follow on how to be responsible for a Jedi's actions and how to learn to be one with the Force. It's an ongoing process to me. That's why a Jedi must have, "the most deepest commitment, the most serious mind-OT Yoda". Being a Jedi cannot be taken lightly or for granted. But that is what I think was happening to the Jedi and lead to their downfall in the PT, at the same time letting the Sith come in and take over.
  20. luisgv73

    luisgv73 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Apr 26, 2005
    I totally agree with Stormcloud

    Assuming that there is a part of the force that can only be known through the dark side, I wouldn't assume that "balance" implies only the light.

    I cannot stop thinking that part of what happened was responsibility of the Jedi and their lack of flexibility. And I think that is what the prophecy mean and what Luke understands, since he is not bond by the restrictions of the "old time" Jedi order. Under different circumstances, when Luke leaves his training in Dagobah to go to Bespin, Yoda would have told him to never return to the order, but as long as things have changed, Yoda understands that he has to be flexible, otherwise the kid would turn to the Dark Side in a second. Remember that the reason why Anakin turns is for his love to Padme, just imagine the pressure on Luke when apart from his love to Leia and Han he is charged with the load of saving the Jedi principles, the universe and who knows what!

    About the balance in numbers I just cannot agree with the concept. If two Sith were able to take the whole Jedi order down, just imagine what kind of balance would be achieved with 2 vs 2. I think that the Sith, individually are way more powerful when comes to a fight than the Jedi!
  21. SomeRandomNerd

    SomeRandomNerd Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Dec 20, 1999
    I don't think it's a coincidence that there is no mention anywhere in the films of a "light side of the Force."

    The Force doesn't neatly split in half into a Dark and light side- there is the Force, which the Jedi embrace as a whole. And there is the Dark Side, which the Sith embrace.

    The Dark Side, by it's nature, will consume you. You can't be a passive Jedi, following the Will of the Force and also use the Force for your own desires, because the Dark Side will take over. The Jedi weren't "unable to know the Dark Side"- they chose to avoid the all-consuming "dark path." (Although, judging from the fact that Yoda can do things like catching Force-lightning with his bare hands, I suspect that the more experienced Jedi do in fact know something about the Dark Side.)

    That's why I don't think the "balance between light and dark" idea works. Because there is no "light side."
  22. jedimelis

    jedimelis Jedi Master star 2

    Nov 5, 2002
    Yeah... think along the lines of most of you...

    THe Jedi Order during the time of the Republic was very archaic... its evident by the views of Jocasta Nu and Mace Windu. I think bringing a balance to the force was both the destruction of the organized Jedi Order AND the destruction of the Emperor.... who says balance has to be simultaneous. I do think that the whole attachment thing which is not part of Luke's Jedi Order is a key point that ultimately played a part in Anakin's fall to the dark side.... Luke restores teh Jedi Order but includes familial relationships... it new and improved and of course be cause he does not have the benefit of the old way...

    What was really interesting to me to postulate while reading your posts was to consider all the different interpretations of the Force by the various characters... When someone suggested that in fact Qui-Gon becomes the master to Yoda and Obi-Wan during their exiles.... it made me wonder... what would have happened if Qui-GOn had confronted Palpatine at that crucial moment.... would it have been different? I think so....(of course it was Obi-Wan's sense of duty to his fallen Master that compelled them to allow him to train Anakin at all) I don't mean to argue with Mace's instruction or leadership, but perhaps the influence of Dooku made Qui-Gon have a different interpretation of the Force and perhaps a different handling of Anakin. I think that Lucas deliberately wrote Mace into this scene and perhaps developed his character with this ending in mind.
  23. kingthlayer

    kingthlayer Jedi Master star 4

    Jun 7, 2003
    But did Anakin really have to kill the Jedi to make it balanced?

    Here's a what if: Had things gone about differently in Episode III and Anakin had destroyed the Sith, don't you think the Jedi would've reconsidered their ways? After seeing that the Chancellor was the Sith, and how wrapped up they've become in the war I would've thought that Mace and the other Jedi would want to relocate the Temple to a planet away from the politics of the Republic. They'd probably call for reforms in the way they did many things.

    Unless I'm missing something. In ROTS did the Jedi ever say anything about the Jedi leading the Senate in the absence of the Chancellor? I don't think they did but if there was something said in that direction, my whole argument falls apart. :p
  24. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    May 18, 2002
    I think if Qui-Gon confronted Palpatine, he would have done the same as Mace.

    Mace and Yoda both were fantastic defensively (the Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence, not aggression) against Sidious.

    The fact that Yoda can "absorb" Force Lightning doesn't necessarily mean he knows the Dark Side - just that he knows the Force.

    If the Dark Side is simply "forcing" the Force to your own ends, focusing on your own internal power, then I do not think Luke is in "balance" with the light and the dark.

    There can be no balance with the Dark Side - it will take over, like a cancer.

    Keep in mind the Sith basically took over the galaxy at some point. I think the Jedi were terrified of that happening again, so the Code was to ensure, as much as possible, that the Jedi would be calm, dispassionate, and outward-thinking.

    Did they take it too far? Yes. But is the Code the problem with the Jedi? No.
  25. jedimelis

    jedimelis Jedi Master star 2

    Nov 5, 2002
    GarthMaul.. I see it like this... there are certain parts of the code that are archaic.... some of parts of the code are quite necessary.... Its like the Constitution, as a society progresses, codes to achieve peace and honor must be amended....

    I really see Mace and Qui-Gon as two very distinct people with slightly different positions on the Force. I think it is quite interesting that we have to ponder "what would Qui-Gon do" because he really had a good handle on things.. or so it seems.... I guess we'll never know. My position is that he would have handled Palpatine in the same way... but Anakin... ahhh thats a different story.... Alot of Anakin's anger and disappointment was spurred by Mace in particular. It is his relationship with Mace that made that decision just a little easier.
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