[ROTS] Let's Talk Prophecy

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by GRAND_MOFF_KEVIN, May 21, 2005.

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  1. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    No matter what you believe the Prophecy means, Anakin is the Chosen One, so he has to be at the center of fulfilling it. And Anakin isn't at the center of wiping out the Jedi. It was just through skill and luck that Yoda and Obi-Wan survived, and if their survival is necessary for balance, Anakin deserves no credit there. Let us also not forget that Order 66 was carried out across the galaxy, not just on Coruscant. It was the stormtroopers who did most of the work on that count, both on Coruscant and elsewhere.

    Secondly, no one has been able to give me a viable explanation as to why Anakin would be destined to only be the apprentice to the real architect of the Stih plan. Palpatine is the one who set the plot into motion, Anakin is nothing more than a pawn, and the very last pawn used at that. Palpatine got where he was with a lot more help than just Anakin's. Why would it be his Force-dictated destiny not to be the one who brings the Sith to power, but to be that person's attack dog. If that's what the prophecy means, Palpatine would be the Chosen One, and he isn't.

    Plus, there would be no need for the Rebellion that would ultimately overthrow Palpatine. If the Force wanted him in power, then it is Luke, Leia, and their contemporaries who are truly contrary to the will of the Force.
  2. thenink Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 2
    To me, this is what the Prophecy means and bringing "balance" to the Force:

    The complete removal of the Jedi and the complete removal of the Sith so that the Force may be brought forth anew.

    Like how a forest fire destoys old growth in order for new life to spring forth, that is what the Force had done to the Galaxy. The Jedi had lost their way, became "too arrogant" as was noticed by Yoda in AOTC (I think). The Jedi put themselves "above" the people they were supposed to serve by shutting themselves away in their Jedi tower. They became over confident in themselves by wrongly thinking that if a Sith was present, they would be able to detect him.

    The Jedi became a self-serving entity rather than serving the will of the Force.

    Therefore, the Force needed to remove them. Same with the Sith.

    That is how "balance" is acheived in my opinion....wipe out the two sides and start anew.

    I don't buy into the theory of Luke being Light and Dark, otherwise Yoda's line about "Once you start down the dark path, etc, etc" doesn't make any sense. The Dark side is all consuming - once you cross that line, there is no turning back!

    The difference in Luke is in his un-orthodox training - he is trained in a new light, not restricted by the old and strict ways.

    Good posts everybody!
  3. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    I've thought something similar. Good job.

    What I find hard to understand is the Dark Side - clearly, the Jedi can sense the Dark Side being used. "Powerful you have become, Dooku - the Dark Side, I sense in you."
  4. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    But the problem is that the Jedi live in a state of denial - they try to eliminate their Dark Side. What Lucas is trying to say is that we all have a Dark Side. No one is pure and perfect and free of anger and hate. But the Jedi prefer to turn their backs on the Dark Side, and repress it. For many of them that works. For someone like Anakin it only made it fester and boil and eventually explode.

    I think one clear analogy of the Jedi is to Catholic priests. They must live a life of purity and chastity. They are forbidden from forming attachments. It is a system that has been in place for millenia but which is showing cracks. Many priests have given in to their own Dark Sides of weakness, as the media has made us well aware. Most of them, like the Jedi, are good and pure and clean. But it only takes one bad apple to ruin the bunch. Just as all it took was Anakin's turn to destroy everything.

    I think George's point is that repression of your darkness and your flaws can only lead to trouble. You must accept your flaws and be OK with them. Not everyone can be Yoda.
  5. origjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2001
    star 3
    I feel Anakin's situation was different than any other Jedi. He is told he was the Chosen One, which already puts alot of pressure on him. He is not trained in the normal method all the other Jedi are trained. He is started much older which means he is behind maturity wise as far as having a strong, sensible connection to the Force. He has not mastered controlling himself at applying the Force. I basically think the Jedi should have waited to tell him about being the Chosen One until he was mature enough to handle it. No other Jedi had to go through what he went through, he was no ordinary Jedi and cannot be compared as such. There IS no other Jedi like Anakin.

    All Jedi, just like us in our world, have a choice. The Jedi aren't threatened to be killed if they don't follow the Code. The Code is part of their doctrine. To me, the Code doesn't say, "follow the Code or else". They must choose to go to the dark side. No one makes them do it, they do it of their own free will. It also doesn't mean if one does it then the Code MUST be flawed. They're still people. If others that aren't Jedi view them holier-than-thou, that is what they conjured up on their own. The Jedi don't go around claiming they are better than anyone else. They have pledged their lives to a certain way of life but that does not make them better than anyone else. I don't believe the Code states that if a person becomes a Jedi that that person will be perfect. It's a way of life that they have chosen, pure and simple. If people hold them to a higher standard, then so be it. It is much easier to break someone down than to believe in them, in spite of their flaws. If we should be able to accept our own flaws, then we should also learn to accept the flaws in others. Lest then we become the very people we try to claim as flawed.
  6. lexu Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 6
    what would have happened if Qui-GOn had confronted Palpatine at that crucial moment.... would it have been different? I think so....

    I think that if Qui-Gon had lived, there's a strong chance everything might have been different. If any Jedi could have sensed the truth about Palpatine, it would have been Qui-Gon due to his connection with the Living Force.

    And as for the meaning of balance, let's not forget the effect the Sith had on the Force itself. It was clouded and interfered with the Jedi's abilities, abilities which the Jedi use to serve the will of the Force.
  7. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    The Sith are to blame for any weaknesses in Jedi perception; the Force is not the type to alow the Sith to gain this power over the Jedi, and then punish the Jedi for it and reward the Sith. This isn't a story about fate, it's about choices. The Force doesn't push you into a corner then punish you for getting yourself in that situation. And everyone seems to be ignoring how little a part Anakin played in this process--the rise of the Sith IS PALPATINE'S DOING, NOT ANAKIN'S! And Palpatine is NOT the Chosen One!
  8. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>If any Jedi could have sensed the truth about Palpatine, it would have been Qui-Gon due to his connection with the Living Force.

    Remember when Obi Wan has a "bad feeling" in TPM, but Qui Gon tells him not to focus on it, and to concentrate on the "here and now"?

    The way Qui Gon works is that he focusses on the moment, but this can be at the expense of the bigger picture. As a result of this, he ignores Obi Wan's warning, and plays straight into Sidious' hands.

    By the time of AOTC, the Dark Side has clouded the vision of the Jedi; they can no longer rely on the Force to know about what's happening in the galaxy, or what destiny has in store for them. Essentially, they are forced to think like Qui Gon, because they are unable to look past "the moment" with any clarity.
  9. Worst_Jedi_Ever Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2004
    star 1
    I?d like to pose a question about the Prophecy that we haven?t touched on yet. It?s an essay question and will be worth half of your grade for the spring semester :p:

    Does Anakin have free will?

    If he's the Chosen One, created to fulfill the Prophecy, doesn't that mean that he's guaranteed to eventually kill Palps, and if so, doesn't that diminish his sacrifice at the end of ROTJ?


    My answer would be that yes, Ani has free will, and because of that, his sacrifice is meaningful despite it being part of his fulfillment of his destiny. He may be destined to destroy the Sith, but that could have happened at any time; his own freedom of choice determined the timing, circumstances and ramifications of the Sith?s destruction. I?d like to focus on three hypothetical scenarios in which Anakin might have fulfilled the prophecy.

    The first is what we see in ROTS. If he'd chosen differently, he and/or Mace could have killed Sidious and ended everything right there. He never joins the Sith, never kills a single Jedi, and the order survives. Some might argue that the Jedi needed to be wiped out because of their arrogance, which may be the case. But goodfellas makes a good point, I think?the Jedi might well have taken a long, hard look at themselves after that. They at least would be quite shaken by the fact that the Sith came back and nearly took control of the entire galaxy right under their noses, and one would hope that they?d re-examine some of their beliefs as a result.

    The second is the point at which he does destroy the Sith, at the end of ROTJ. Here, he makes a choice, and a difficult one. I have always gathered that he knew he would have to sacrifice his own life to save his son's. I would argue that he chose not to allow the Emperor to kill Luke, but could have chosen differently.

    This brings us to the hypothetical third scenario. I would argue that even if he had chosen to let Palpy kill Luke in the throne room, he still would have had some opportunity in the future to destroy his Master, and would have done so. It?s hard to speculate on just what this opportunity might have been, but a prophecy is a prophecy, and it would eventually be fulfilled one way or the other. It might even have been that the Vader-Luke duel would have distracted Palps enough to allow the DS to be destroyed even without the Vader-saving-Luke angle being played out. This would have been a kind lame ?letter-of-the-law? example of Anakin indirectly fulfilling the Prophecy, but the result would have been the same.

    In the end, I think it?s Ani?s choices that make him who he is (and make him a fascinating character), not the Prophecy. The thing that makes him a tragic hero is that he makes the wrong choice the first time; the thing that allows him to be redeemed is that by acting when he did and saving Luke, he preserves the Jedi; if he had killed Palpatine at a later time, he would have nominally fulfilled the Prophecy, but at the cost of destroying the Jedi as well as the Sith.
  10. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    I think that eventually, you run out of choices. But I totally agree that Anakin had free will.

    The SW Saga shows us a nice mix of destiny and free will - destiny places you at a specific place and time, and it is your free will that decides the choice.

    storm - you're saying Lucas thinks we shouldn't deny our dark impulses? I don't know about that. Look at Luke in the Throne Room, and Vader (finally) willing to die to save his son.

    It's not about dark impulses, it's about the power of love, as cheesy as that sounds.

    Anyway,the Jedi/priest analogy is not a bad one - I'm Orthodox Christian, and we and the Ukrainian Catholics allow priests to marry, if they get married before becoming priests. It works rather well.

    But I would say the Jedi are more like Christian or Buddhist or Shaolin monks. And Anakin was taken as a 10-year-old child to live in this monastery, and he simply couldn't handle it. He knew a life outside the monastery.
  11. beedubew Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 2
    W_J_E, I totally think Anakin has free will. I don't like the idea that his destiny was totally set and the events that transpired HAD to occur. It demeans Anakin?s fall in ROTS and his redemption in ROTJ. As Garth said, destiny sets up the situation and the person has a choice to make. Assuming the prophecy of balance was true and interpreted correctly as ?Anakin will destroy the Sith?, in no way does that say how or when or after how many people die it will occur. He chose to destroy the Jedi by joining with Sidious. He chose to kill countless people during the years of the Empire. Only when confronted with watching his son die after Luke chose a different path than Anakin does he destroy the Sith.
  12. GRAND_MOFF_KEVIN Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2004
    star 5
    Yeah I think the reason Vader turned on Palps is because he didn't want to see another family member die.
  13. origjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2001
    star 3
    GRAND_MOFF_KEVIN,

    I saw ROTS today again and then came home and saw the last half of ROTJ and I was thinking the same thing you mentioned. I feel that Anakin has had 20+ years to contemplate the mistakes he made leading to his becoming Vader. Perhaps, after seeing Luke suffer at the hands of the Emperor, he didn't want to make the same mistake again.
  14. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>Does Anakin have free will?

    If he's the Chosen One, created to fulfill the Prophecy, doesn't that mean that he's guaranteed to eventually kill Palps, and if so, doesn't that diminish his sacrifice at the end of ROTJ?


    Anakin certainly has free will- he could have chosed to side with Mace instead of Palpatine in ROTS and fulfilled the prophecy, as you pointed out.

    Jesus was prophecised to die, but I don't think that diminishes his sacrifice.

    I personally think "creating" Anakin was the limit of the Force's ability to intervene directly with events. That's why the Jedi are needed in the galaxy, and why Luke's survival matters. Everything else was up to the individuals. I don't think what Qui Gon did in TPM was "right" for a Jedi, because of the way he did it- basically using the Force to cheat a dice roll to manipulate Anakin's fate. It's interesting that when the innocent Anakin is presented to the Jedi council, Yoda can already sense that his future is clouded- which AOTC indicates is the Dark Side. I think it's clear that Qui Gon alters Anakin's destiny- whether what he did involved the Dark Side depends on what you interpret the Dark Side to be.

    >>>>It might even have been that the Vader-Luke duel would have distracted Palps enough to allow the DS to be destroyed even without the Vader-saving-Luke angle being played out. This would have been a kind lame ?letter-of-the-law? example of Anakin indirectly fulfilling the Prophecy, but the result would have been the same.

    I don't think that, had he failed to intervene and the Death Star been destroyed, he would have fulfilled the prophecy though. The battle on the Death Star at the end, while it appears to show the fate of the galaxy hanging in the balance, actually comes down to a purely personal one between Vader and the Emperor, fighting over Luke and the Jedis survival. Although Vader obviously doesn't know that at the time, whatever choice he makes, he's going to die anyway.

    It's been argued that the prophecy may have somehow involved Anakin wiping out the Jedi- the significance presumably being that the younglings are the future of the Jedi order. That fact that Luke survives seems to me to imply that's not the case- surely for the prophecy to be fulfilled in that way, he can't just wipe out some/most of the Jedi. I don't think Luke is intended to be shown as a different kind of Jedi at the end of the saga.
  15. vacantlook Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2004
    star 2
    I don't think what Qui Gon did in TPM was "right" for a Jedi, because of the way he did it- basically using the Force to cheat a dice roll to manipulate Anakin's fate.


    Based on Watto's reaction at the conclusion of the dice roll, I'd say that that die was weighted and Watto was cheating too. So if Watto cheats the roll, wouldn't Watto's cheating be manipulating Anakin's fate too?
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