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[ROTS] Now that we've seen ROTS, what do you think of the PT?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by bswb, May 24, 2005.

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  1. bswb

    bswb Jedi Master star 1

    Dec 2, 2000
    Not sure if this should go in the PT forum, but it does involve ROTS discussion, so I'll try it here first.

    The saga is now complete. So how satisfied are you with the PT?

    After seeing ROTS, I'm still in the camp that TPM should have been a book (like Labyrinth of Evil), Episode 1 should have been AOTC, and 2 and 3 could be ROTS and CW mashed together. As much as I love the PT, I think that is its downfall. After seeing ROTS, I feel like TPM, a few plot points aside (which could be covered in 2 minutes of exposition), is even more unnecessary.

    Seeing the plotlines cut from ROTS makes me think that GL simply had too much info. ROTS is certainly streamlined to focus on Anakin's fall, but I would have liked to see the stuff about Mon Mothma and Bail trying to stir up resistance in the senate and the birth of the rebellion played out. Since the last season of CW takes place right before ROTS, you could have interspersed a lot of that stuff in and between the two films - and it would have been nice to give Padme something to do.

    Also, there were scenes cut of Grievous taking out Jedi. For the sake of time, I don't think they belonged in ROTS, but a live action version of the abduction of Palpatine and the way Grievous takes out Jedi would have really built up his scariness as a character more.

  2. qui_gon_jinn_83

    qui_gon_jinn_83 Jedi Master star 1

    Sep 18, 2002
    It's really, really hard to say.
    What you are suggesting definetely seems tempting (even though I love TPM).
    ROTS is probably my fav Star Wars film, but it does move very, very fast. It would definetely be nice if more time could be spent on this period of time in the saga. The clone wars and whatnot, and maybe Anakin's friendship with Palpatine.

    But still, I feel it was very important to show Anakin's childhood in a film. Even though TPM has some stuff that could be "cut away" (just like ROTJ has IMO), I still feel it's an important film to the saga, even though it doesn't seem as connected as the others (probably because it stands alone, with it being 10 years before Episode II).

    All in all, I think I prefer the PT the way it is now. But like I said, the Clone War period is incredibly interesting, and it'd be very, very nice to see more of it.

  3. Ekenobi

    Ekenobi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Apr 4, 2002
    I loved the PT!!! Much more going on then the OT. More story. More mystery. Palps deception and more Sith and bad guys. More Jedi and lightsaber duels. I could not have Had a better ride then I did with the PT. It was really fun!!!
  4. Kiki-Gonn

    Kiki-Gonn Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Feb 26, 2001
    Lucas' comments at the Cannes Film Festival were really interesting. He says he has two fan bases, each fanatically enthusiastic for their trilogy (OT vs. New).
    With ROTS out, there's no question the PT stands well on it's own. I loved I & II but there was a point to be made about them being less than engaging. Now that ROTS shows us the emotional payoff of all that setup, it's a different story.
  5. bswb

    bswb Jedi Master star 1

    Dec 2, 2000
    I agree qui_gon_jinn_83, there are many parts of TPM I love, and it's unfortunate that this is forced into being 3 movies instead of 4. Half of TPM is necessary to make AOTC and ROTS work, but there's a lot of fat to trim. Like you, I feel the same way about ROTJ.

    I suppose I can always burn my own super-mega-versions of the DVDs! ;)

    MYMUTHAZ Jedi Master star 4

    Apr 17, 2001
    i still see it as 1 six film saga & i've been into star wars as long as i can remember. i saw ROTJ in the theater, so you may half expect me to be a PT basher, but i love em all. oh well.....
  7. thenink

    thenink Jedi Youngling star 2

    Mar 19, 2002
    I'm a big fan of the PT and OT.

    I'm glad Lucas decided not to "show" alot of the Clone Wars and instead put the focuse on Anakin, which is what Star Wars is all about. The "Clone Wars" are just a background that the saga of the characters plays out on...much like the Civil War was a background in "Gone With the Wind".
  8. bswb

    bswb Jedi Master star 1

    Dec 2, 2000
    My problem is that I felt the Clone Wars really helped the development of Anakin. While his childhood is critical to the choices he makes later, his journey through the Clone Wars (at least via the cartoon) shows that 1) he's flirted with the dark side several times and 2) his relationship with Obi-Wan gradually changes from master/padawan to the brothers we see in Ep 3. I would have liked to see that transition on the big screen, as it shows a maturation process in him while still letting his flaws seep through.
  9. Darth_Patton00

    Darth_Patton00 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Apr 9, 2005
    I like the PT how it is for the most part but ROTS has completely changed how I view episodes I and II. I know view everything before Mace's death scene as necessary backstory. From that point on, the galaxy is submerged in evil right up until the point that Anakin kills Sidious. For me TPM, AOTC, and the first half of ROTS are just buildup for that one scene. I see it as Anakin's choice between the light and dark sides physically happening when he cuts Mace's hand off.
  10. stormcloud8

    stormcloud8 Jedi Master star 4

    May 24, 2002
    I definitely think it could have been better as:

    Episode I: padawan Anakin and the start of the Clone Wars

    Episode II: the Clone Wars

    Episode III: after the Clone Wars, the rise of the Empire

    Now, that being said, seeing the full and complete prequel trilogy really changed my perspective. I think that the issues and scope of the PT are far grander than the OT. The effects and fights are better, and I think the acting and dialogue is a draw.

    Count me now under the 'PT is better than the OT' crowd. That may change over time, but I stand there now.
  11. bswb

    bswb Jedi Master star 1

    Dec 2, 2000
    stormcloud, I am surprised! Weren't you really unhappy with TPM and AOTC?
  12. stormcloud8

    stormcloud8 Jedi Master star 4

    May 24, 2002
    No, I wasn't really unhappy. I saw room for improvement. I think the only thing that really pisses me off is Jar-Jar and the Gungans.

    In general I am like Obi-Wan...'overly critical.' So my rantings might seem like displeasure, but really I'm just too tough to please.
  13. Wrath_Mania

    Wrath_Mania Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jun 9, 2004
    The Phantom Menace- Well polished, well crafted film with a nice developing story and a good twist at the end in the event this is your first Star Wars movie (Sidious=Palpatine). I like it alot.

    Attack of the Clones- Mediocore at best. Undercooked, and terrible editing on all fronts.

    Revenge of the Sith- Best of the prequels, very well polished, perhaps the best editing and pacing in the entire saga.

    And overall, I think I-III (not really prequels anymore), when combined with IV-VI, will work very well together.

    Like that one article on rottentomatoes I posted showed, the prequels have actually gotten better reviews than the origianls.
  14. Harlowe Thrombey

    Harlowe Thrombey Jedi Youngling star 2

    Feb 19, 1999
    This might not be appropriate for this thread, but since we're talking about the PT in general now, I'll throw this out there. Would Episode I and II have benefited from a score more similar in tone to Ep. III? I know that I and II were supposed to be lighter, and don't get me wrongo, I love William's work in I and II, but the dark music of ROTS worked really well and gave all of the scenes more foreboding. It gives everything a more serious feeling. Especially during TPM, there were certain scenes where William's score became very "playful," and watching it you are thinking, these events are affecting the entire universe for the next forty plus years.

    For example, Anakin goes home because he's having premonitions about his mother suffering and dying...but when he shows up at the homestead there is a light and playful music that intros 3PO. The music gets darker later, but I just wonder if people would have taken the events of I and II more serious if the music would have been different.

    I can definitely understand that he doesn't want all three episodes to be dark, especially considering what a downer ROTS is.
  15. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Oct 2, 2000
    I don't agree. The music gets gradually darker throughout the trilogy. The moment you mentioned with Threepio might be playful, but it still has a more grown-up feel to it than the playful music that we hear in TPM. There's a lot of foreboding in the AOTC score.

    About plot points being cut from ROTS: It sure would've been nice to have seen the beginning of the Rebellion and it's too bad Lucas felt that there was no room for it, but really, it's not needed. The movie is great the way it is and we shouldn't think about what could have been, because we won't get it.
    First and foremost, ROTS is the continuation of AOTC and the climax of the PT. As such, it works great. ANH then introduces the Rebel Alliance by showing us Tantive IV on the run from Imperial forces. It should tie in well with the end of ROTS, where we see Bail, Obi-Wan, Yoda and the droids on Tantive IV, running from Imperial Forces.

    "You're the Sith Lord!"
    I love that scene
  16. Blyte_the_Noghri

    Blyte_the_Noghri Jedi Youngling star 1

    Apr 10, 2003
    I love the entire six films. I saw all six in the theatres when they were released the first time out. If I like the OT better, it is probably because of nostalgia. Star Wars was my childhood. There really wasn't much else out there at that time. If I like the PT better, it is because it felt more grown up/had more weight (Jar Jar aside). There was political intrigue and betrayal. The OT was straight forward. The PT had a lot of currents under the surface. Purely as a fan. I wish that TPM had been a flashback scene or two in ATOC thus being PT film 1. Then a more in depth look at Obi-Wan/Anakin/Padme during the Clone Wars. The death of the Jedi might have been more powerful than it already is if we had more screen time with them. If you see ROTS and have read no EU, you would not even know the names of the jedi who die during order 66. ROTS could have been the third film of the trilogy.

    All that being said, it is George's baby and he can do with it what he wants. He did an incredible job. I love the story flowing through Ep 1-6. Someone incredible is found, becomes a hero, has a tragic fall, and is redeemed in the end. Beautiful story. Well done.
  17. SabeForQueen

    SabeForQueen Jedi Youngling

    Oct 2, 2002
    I agree with Wrath Mania re: TPM vs. AOTC. Though I enjoyed AOTC better in the theater, it got worse over time, whereas TPM impresses me more and more.
    I also think that TPM is very significant to the PT. I mean, how cool to see Obi and Ani shake hands for the first time? And to see how Obi Wan was himself quite young when he took on Ani, and inherited him as a duty, over a prophecy he had doubts about. Plus we see Palpatine's elaborate and subtle planning; Padme meets Anakin and takes him under her wing after his heroic efforts in her name; Ani's past of slavery and rupture from his mother are a good backstory for his insecurity and ambition.
    And, after ROTS and rewatching ANH, I must applaud Lucas for including C3PO and R2D2 so intimately into the prequels. At first I thought it was lame and an obvious stretch to make C3PO built by Ani and R2 in Padme's service but it really makes a nice touch to have that duo such close companions to both generations, and unwitting/witting witnesses. (Someone on this forum likened R2 to the narrator in The Great Gatsby, I agree that the same nostalgic/sympathetic wonder is acheived)
    That being said, I think AOTC will improve greatly in retrospect. Dragging love scenes will, in a sense, seem quite short now we have seen the couple's end. And the clones' rescue of the Jedi will contrast quite nicely with thier later genocide.
    All in all, the PT has become pretty legit. It appeared as mere indulgence of a devoted fandom with TPM, another blockbuster action flick w/SW background with AOTC, but now a fully-fleshed drama of its own.
    On leaving the cinema Thursday night, my eldest basher-sister said sincerely "Now I have to respect Lucas". Yippeee!;)
    I agree.
  18. Billy_Dee_Binks

    Billy_Dee_Binks Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Mar 29, 2002
    If TPM was only a flashback it would have never been as powerful. As pointed out above, Anakin meeting Obi Wan for the first time. Without a whole story going on around it the effect would have lacked.
    I agree that TPM does not perfectly link into AOTC due to the time gap. However, it foreshadows events, mirrors future events and is a fun adventure. It establishes characters that will change dramatically over the next two episodes, especially Anakin and Obi Wan. It's good that we see a character arc and it widens the epicness of the story.

    All in all, we have a complete story now. I-VI and it works perfect. Two generations of the Skywalker family (hang on, it's three! Shmi Skywalker->Anakin Skywalker and his wife, Padmé Skywalker-> their children Luke and Leia Skywalker).
  19. stormcloud8

    stormcloud8 Jedi Master star 4

    May 24, 2002
    Oddly, in the post-ROTS world I agree with those who say that TPM is better than AOTC. If you remove Jar-Jar/Gungans, I think you have one of the better films in the saga.

    When it came out I thought AOTC might be my 2nd or 3rd in the saga, but it has slipped. Hope that doesn't happen with ROTS.
  20. leelee

    leelee Jedi Youngling star 3

    Jan 4, 2003
    I really really love AOTC and ROTS, but come on TPM, could have been a lot better. I still have a place in my heart for it, it just isn't nearly as good as the rest.
  21. Wrath_Mania

    Wrath_Mania Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jun 9, 2004
    Overall I love the PT music, but AOTC's score is horribly edited.

    Anyways, Phantom Menace in my opinion is a fine film. Is the Jar-Jar antics overdone? Sure. But it's very well edited, there's no cringing moments with dialogue, in my opinion (whereas all the love scenes in Clones had some sort of cringe moment), and the polish is clearly there.

    Clones is just half-baked in comparison.

    And Revenge is wonderfully edited.
  22. marajadebean

    marajadebean Jedi Youngling star 2

    Mar 11, 2005
    SabeForQueen, I was the one who likened R2 to Nick Carraway of The Great Gatsby. It was mentioned in the Making of book that George knew all along that R2 was the only character who knew the whole story. Now I do see why Lucas has said that ANH is told through the eyes of the droids, because it really is. I've always loved R2 and now, I love him even more. The closeness that Anakin had with him is even more apparent in the ROTS novel and it leads to my thoughts about R2's further encounter with Luke in ANH.

    I've always thought the PT has been legit. I know some don't like each aspect of it but the PT is a legit piece of work. It's so much more intricate and I've appreciated that. It makes you think. Look at all the talk ROTS has generated on its own. That is a testament to George's vision and he stuck to it and you have to respect him and give him credit for that.

    But yes, I do have to say my main complaint with AOTC is editing, music and movie wise. But I still enjoy it very much.
  23. IceGambit

    IceGambit Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jun 9, 2002
    I am quite surprised that most people here seem to favor the PT over the OT after ROTS.

    For me, Episodes IV and V will always be some of the greatest films ever made. VI was a little too warm and fuzzy and Lucas made some poor story choices (that weak Boba Fett death for one).

    ROTS is certainly my favorite of the PT, but that's because it's the big payoff. I am much more interested in seeing Anakin's transformation and subsequent acts as Darth Vader than I am in seeing a little annoying kid win a Podrace. I just like darker stuff than TPM had to offer. The Jedi Purge is the most anticipated cinematic event in my life, not Jar-Jar Binks' power coupling antics.

    Also, the PT doesn't have a Han Solo. It doesn't have a smart ass that can drop funny lines. All the humor in the PT seems forced or childish.

    ROTS increases the effectiveness and power of the whole saga more then just the PT. TPM and AOTC just have tough roles to fill.
  24. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    May 18, 2002
    ROTS is at least 3rd, but hard to say if it beats ANH and ESB.

    Now that I've seen ROTS, my view of the PT has gone both up and down.

    UP because ROTS redeems TPM and AOTC, completes the arc of Anakin's downfall, and ties in nicely with the OT, whilst beating us to a bloody pulp with all the awesome action sequences and effects.

    DOWN because some scenes could have been elaborated on, if not in ROTS (because I love the pacing so much), but in TPM or AOTC.

    Young Anakin in TPM could have been not a flashback, but greatly abbreviated. Naboo could have been abbreviated and we could have basically cut to Amidala being on Coruscant with a young Anakin. Talk about certain Jedi (the Lost 20) leaving the Jedi Order, including Dooku. Then jump 10 years ahead in TPM. Still have Qui-Gon.

    Have AOTC Anakin and Obi-Wan say in the last half of the movie, have Obi-Wan find Kamino but cut the length, re-introduce Ani and Padme to one another, but don't push the romance too much. End TPM basically the way AOTC ended. Have Darth Maul be Dooku's role on Geonosis. Have Maul kill Qui-Gon in the Hangar, Anakin and Obi-Wan rush in and manage to kill him. Or something. Maybe throw in Dooku as well.

    AOTC would center more on teh Clone Wars, Anakin being Knighted, more on Dooku. The relationship of Anakin/Obi-Wan would be more like it was in ROTS (which was fantastic to see), and Anakin would be a little older, so the romance with Padme would maybe be on the level of ROTS. Bring in Padme's family from the deleted scenes. Bring in Grievous with a small role.

    Leave ROTS pretty much as is.

    Well, that was basically off the top of my head, so some of it won't work. [face_laugh]

    But after seeing ROTS, there is a lot of chaff in TPM and AOTC.
  25. DamonD

    DamonD Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Nov 22, 2002
    I loved TPM and AOTC beforehand anyway, so I guess I still do.

    But I love the Saga, not this OT-PT stuff ;)

    There's chaff in TPM and AOTC (more so in TPM) sure, but then you could apply that to a fair bit of ANH and a little bit of ESB as well. That's the nature of filling 2 hours I guess.
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