[ROTS] *Official* ROTS In-Depth Discussion Thread

Feel free to discuss the intracicies of ROTS to your heart's content in this thread.

 

Two things I discussed with stormcloud8 and a friend of mine brought up some good points.

1) Darth Plagueis - I didn't really buy into the whole theory that Anakin was created by Plagueis. To me it looked like another red herring GL was throwing out there to see what we would think. Sidious did also say that his master could extend life which would make it interesting to know just how old the 2 Sith Lords were.I would guess a few hundred years old. I still believe the Force is what created Anakin with the sole purpose of balancing the Force. Which brings me to my next point:

2) Qui-Gon Jinn - OK, I honestly didn't think much of him after TPM and especially after AOTC, where he only had a voice-over. But after ROTS it is clear to me that he is the most important character of the saga after Anakin. Why? He is the one who not only finds Anakin thus leading to all these events, but he is the one more connected to the Force than any other Jedi.

Granted, he wasn't the most skilled with a lightsaber, but he had something much more important. The ability to be immortal through the Force which is passed on to Yoda, Obi-Wan and eventually to Luke. For Anakin this power was a given because he was already the Chosen One, he just needed the right time to use it and he does at the end of ROTJ.

Because the Jedi/Sith were too arrogant and abused the Force for their own gain, the Force needed to have all of them purged to start over. Anakin's destiny is to destroy the Jedi first, then the Sith, and then himself. Once this was done the new Jedi order would start, with Luke at the helm. He becomes the next Qui-Gon, teaching how not to abuse the Force and listen to it.

Some things happen without any intervention because it is "the will of the Force", and like fate or destiny, cannot be stopped. Anakin was meant to be found, he would make the wrong choices in life and eventually redeem himself. And in the process bring balance to the Force through the Jedi/Sith purge.

If you notice in TPM and ROTJ, both Luke and Qui-Gon seem like grey-area Jedi. They fight for what is just, and if necessary use dark side powers (eg. cheating at the chance cube game and lying to Watto, using force choke on the guards in ROTJ) to achieve their goals. Using the Force correctly for the common good of the galaxy, even if you go on the slight light or dark path, is what a true Jedi should do. It's no wonder that Obi-Wan and Yoda finally realize that Qui-Gon's teachings were exactly what they should have been teaching to Anakin. But at least they teach some of it to Luke and realize he is the next best hope for the galaxy.

 

Yoda saying that the prophecy could have been misread is another strong hint. The whole "gray Jedi" thing seems to be the most plausible explanation. I was very pro-Jedi minus Sith=balance before RotS but the movie changed my mind.

I gotta disagree about Luke, though. To me, he was clearly going dark side. The force choking was no "common good" act. He was there to free Han, pretty much a completely selfish goal.

I'm not sure what to think about Anakin's origins, yet. Who's to say Plagueis didn't create him? Qui-Gon may be contradicting this with what he says in Episode 1 (will of the force and all), but he isn't exactly omniscient, either.

Anakin is born when the Sith return. That the Sith actually create him is pretty ironic. Perhaps Plagueis knew of the prophecy but would've hoped to control the Chosen One and merely destroy the Jedi. Palpatine nearly achieved this, at least did so for many years.

 

No, I don't think that freeing a friend is selfish. The difference between the way Luke handles it and the way Anakin handles it is that Luke does not become dangerously obsessed with the quest. He uses what powers he has, but always under control. He loses control briefly at the end against Vader, but is able to pull back.

 

Perhaps. I just don't see Luke as a Qui-Gon type character at that point. It's hardly for the common good, either.

 

I don't think a Jedi does things ONLY for the common good. Luke has learned to have attachments that are healthy, and to use the Force (both Dark and Light) for the purposes of good. I think THAT is what Balance means. And it was achieved when Vader killed Palpatine and himself, thus ending forever the old ways of the Jedi and Sith, and bringing rise to a new era of balanced Force use.

On another note...Palpatine has been my favorite movie character for 20 years now, but the mindjob he did on Vader at the very end has to be the cruelest thing I've ever heard in a film. It was rotten, and I hate Palpatine now because of it. He is evil on the grand scale, and evil on the personal scale.

 

It seems as though both the Sith and the Jedi had their own idea of the Chosen One. But because the ability to be immortal through the Force makes a Jedi "more powerful than you can possibly imagine", I would have to stick with Qui-Gon's theory of Anakin's creation. Palpatine is such a manipulator that we can't be sure what to believe.

If Sidious was involved in the death of Anakin's mom, then we could think that Sidious was behind his creation. But it's just never proven.

 

Maybe he's saving it for the TV show...

 

I was surprised he told Vader that he had killed Padmé. After the promises Sidious made, I would've guessed he'd keep Vader in check by claiming Padmé could still somehow be saved (but that as Sidious said earlier, they'd need to work together to reach that goal).

It would also give ROTJ more weight, in that Anakin has to decide between staying with his Master or his son who was still alive.

Hmm....cut that. I guess it wouldn't fit with Vader wanting to rule the galaxy with Luke. Then again...oh well.

By the way...have any of you seen the digital version? Could only see the normal film...Dagobah? Anything else?

 

Sorry, to late for an edit, but...

I just remembered another thing...when Padmé confronts Anakin on Mustafar, at one point he seemed to wave his right hand from left to right. It looked a lot like a mind trick. Anyone else notice this? Probably just a coincidence, but still weird.

 

On Mace vs. Palpatine:

Palaptine looks to be holding back his true power until the moment he knocks Mace out of the window. He could have done that from the start of the fight and knocked all of the Jedi out.

Instead he keeps Mace around long enough to prey on Anakin's devotion to him, to see if he will help out. It is his first test as a Sith. Once Palpatine provokes Mace into a killing rage does Anakin realize what must be done.

As we see later on in the movie, Palpatine is too tough for even Yoda once most of the Jedi are gone. Keep in mind that GL envisions Palpatine to be the Devil. You cannot fight the devil on his own terms, he is the ultimate badass and manipulator. In Palpatine's case, you cannot fight him with a lightsaber, or with the Force, or even try to negotiate. To beat Palpatine you must turn off your lightsaber and not fight him, and hopefully outsmart him.

That is what Luke did and indirectly it did work. Luke becomes an even greater Jedi than his father could have ever been.

 

but the mindjob he did on Vader at the very end has to be the cruelest thing I've ever heard in a film. It was rotten, and I hate Palpatine now because of it. He is evil on the grand scale, and evil on the personal scale.


But he did kill her. she never recovered from his attack, and proved his trues correct from his deeds. If we go back to the cw ch 24, he does what the cave predicted he would. suffocate the one he loved w/ his terrible gift.

 

One of the most fascinating and best parts of this movie, I thought, was the way that Anakin turning to the dark side and becoming Palpatine's apprentice was handled. First of all, I was quite surprised when Anakin was the one to discover Palpatine's identity. It was great how Anakin was repeatedly given opportunities to do the right thing and save the galaxy but failed. The Jedi failed too, however. Mace's lack of trust in Anakin helped lead Anakin to turn against him. And in the end, it was Anakin wanting to do things the Jedi way and take Palpatine alive and Mace giving in to his desire to kill Palpatine that finally brought about Anakin's turn! Anakin really thought he was doing the right thing, and it makes his character far more interesting.

Initially I thought Anakin's decision to bow before the Sith Lord came somewhat abruptly here, but then it was revealed that he was deceiving Palpatine, hoping to overthrow him all along. He wanted to use Palpatine so he could save Padmé, then kill him, purge the galaxy of his evil, and bring peace and order. I absolutely love this. It ties in perfectly to Vader's offer to Luke in ESB. Vader was never fully devoted to Sidious; he became his servant because he thought it was his best option at the time, but he always meant to overthrow him once the time was right. After his wounding at the hands of Obi-Wan, though, he became too weak to have a hope of defeating his master alone. It was not until Luke came along that he saw the opportunity. This is one of many examples of how the PT has made the OT more interesting. Star Wars truly is a single, amazing saga now.

 

On Mace vs. Palpatine:

Palaptine looks to be holding back his true power until the moment he knocks Mace out of the window. He could have done that from the start of the fight and knocked all of the Jedi out.

Instead he keeps Mace around long enough to prey on Anakin's devotion to him, to see if he will help out. It is his first test as a Sith. Once Palpatine provokes Mace into a killing rage does Anakin realize what must be done.

I agree for the most part. I didnt see it as much as a test, but as another way to manipulate him. To essentially force Anakin to take his side against Mace, or to let his wife die, which we all know, Sids included, he wasnt going to let happen. I definately agree that he was holding back on Mace, but I think it was because he saw it as a way to solidify Anakin's turn. I can even see his plan going back to telling Anakin about being able to keep Padme alive. Then revealing himself as the Sith, he knew Anakin would either join him immediately, or report back to the council and set the events that occured in his office into motion. That fits with the whole theme of "Everything that has transpired has gone exactly as planned" (Not sure if the wording is right but you get the drift)

 

The great thing about handling his turn in that manner is that in his mind, he's never really evil. Palpatine is evil and he knows it, and embraces it. Anakin has convinced himself all along that he's doing the right thing. He's pretty much lost all connection to reality.

 

One of the things I really liked is the "point of view" discussion. I believe it was in the duel. "The Jedi are evil from my point of view!" anything really can be true "from a certain point of view."

I love this too. It definitely gives us a different picture about vader. I mean, the ultimate question is, what is vader's goal? His motive? There are 3 possibilities:

1. Save Padme
2. Bring "peace and justice" to the galaxy
3. Pure power

I would say that saving padme was Anakin's initial motive. Everything that he does during his fall deals with saving padme. But the really interesting thing is how he deceives himself later; he says he is going to "bring peace and justice" to the galaxy by overthrowing sidious. When Sidious tells Vader that he himself killed padme (which is a dubious claim, equal to the claim that vader killed anakin), he is burying the dead horse of saving padme. No longer can taht be Vader's motive, because he, umm... killer her! Nothing can save her now.

At this point, Anakin is already caught in the spider's web. He is a sith, in a giant oxygen tank, a shadow of his former self. If he ever thought that he could overthrow palpatine before, now he really can't: Palps could just force-lightning him like in ROTJ and electrocute him. While Vader is now slightly less powerful than he could have been had he not been in the suit, he is far more controllable from Palpatine's point-of-view. So the question is now, what does he do all sorts of stuff (in the OT) for? Power? Or to bring peace and justice? I think he deceives himself when he says it is for "peace and justice."

Mr. P

(btw, it is really ironic how my name stands for Mr. Palpatine. At this point I feel really bad having that name........)

 

Tell me about it Mr P! I worshipped Palps for 20 years but he made me sick after this movie!

 

I loved the whole Darth Plagueis thing. The sheer irony of it is awesome. Sidious fulfils the Jedi prophecy himself, and creates the being that ultimately destroys him, and the Sith.

And timeline wise, I think it had to be Sidious that created Anakin. As of Episode 1, how long has Maul been his apprentice? I'm guessing before Anakin was born, and thus Plagueis would have been dead by that point.

I love this explaination for Anakin's birth. Way better then the "virgin birth" idea.

 

The great thing about handling his turn in that manner is that in his mind, he's never really evil. Palpatine is evil and he knows it, and embraces it. Anakin has convinced himself all along that he's doing the right thing. He's pretty much lost all connection to reality.

The only thing I saw that may contradict that, was the scene after he killed the separatist leaders on Mustafar. When he is looking out over the lava landscape, the light and camera shifts gradually show a tear streak down his face. To me this seemed like he realized what he had done, that he knows its wrong, and he regrets it, but has no choice.

When he sees Padme and talks to her about what happened to him, it seems like he is hiding thigns from her, trying to make it sound to her like the things that he is doing are right, even though he may know deep down they arent. However, once he sees Obi come out of the ship and thinks that Padme has betrayed him, that is what solidifies his fall. To him, his one reason for killing the Jedi in the temple has disappeared.Once he thinks that, it releases much more anger than before, and he lets his regrets go and falls entirely to the dark (Well for another 20+ years anyway).

 

Good point. Yes, maybe he does realize that what he has done is wrong. But then he starts the spin control, trying to convince Padme that what he is doing is right. And then by the time ANH rolls around he has fully convinced himself of how right he is, and basically completely lost touch with reality.

 

I loved it.
Sleep now. post later.

 

The thing about Padme dying is also interesting. I got the feeling that Padme was seriously injured by the choke, but not life-threatening.
After all, the "nurse droid" says something like "She has given up on living" or something like that.
It's cheesy, but it works very good within Star Wars I think. That whole birth sequence is like that in my opinion.
I also got the sense Padme was sort of force sensitive or something in a few scenes. Maybe just my imagination (forgive me if I'm forgetting something, my mind is racing) but it seems that the children she is carrying are affecting her through the force.

That really made me sad though... Anakin force choking his pregnant wife.

 

The thing about Anakin's fall is it's not supposed to make any sense. The dark side is about emotion, not logic. Anakin didn't know what to make of anything, from the political implications to Obi-Wan to Padme. All he knew was rage and fear and confusion. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.
In ESB, Luke asked Yoda how he would know the good side from the bad. Yoda's answer was, "When you are calm, at peace." Obviously, Anakin was the exact opposite of that.

 

Whether in the OT he thinks he is right, or has fallen so far to the Dark Side that he just doesn't care anymore is debatable, although the results are essentially the same. In ESB he doesnt appear to have any cause or reason he believes is right that he is fighting for. He tries to convince Luke to help him overthrow Sids, but only to gain more power, not to achieve any benefitial end result, only for his personal lust for power.

 

The Plageus thing is kind of a stretch, I dont know what to think about it. The thing that makes it seem to me more of a manipulation by Palps is how after he explains the midichlorians, he speaks of keeping people alive (Anakin's ultimate goal). Overall, I thought the movie was incredible and an amazing way to end the saga. We see Anakin truly die towards the end. His parting speech with Obi-Wan was chilling. The only way I can put it, is that the whole situation truly sucked for Anakin and he was completely screwed into it. One more thing, I did like how Vader's scream at the end fit into Yoda's vision from AotC after the Tusken Raider slaughter...