[ROTS] *Official* ROTS In-Depth Discussion Thread

Certainly he was being manipulated, but I think part of the reason he was so easily manipulated is because he couldn't think his way out of a paper bag.

I mean look at how he actually physically became Darth Vader? The only way to explain that move he tried to pull on Obi-Wan is stupidity. Obi-Wan even warned him. He was arrogant and really dumb.

 

"We need a system where the politicians just sit down, agree what is in the best interest for all the people....and do it"

lol

It's not that he's "dumb" perse, it's that he's very "dumbed down" - he's very simpleminded. In some cases that works to his advantage, things come easy to him, he isn't bogged down by thinking too much and he's incredibly quick to react.

But in some ways...."in lots of ways"...it's really his downfall.

"Your focus determines your reality"

If only Anakin rationalized a little bit more and focused on more than one outcomes - he would see through a lot of things.

Luke isn't that bright either, but he has controlled his focus.

- O_F

 

Yes, that's a good way to think of him Frans. He's just very simplistic. He could be the author of "The Dark Side for Dummies."

 

Very true. I don't think it's fair to call Anakin stupid, though. I see him as more irrational. He took Qui-Gon's "feel, don't think" advice a little too far.

If he had really known his wife, for example, he would have realized she would never want him to do what he did on her behalf. But he was a crazy kid, and he didn't care. He was obsessed with having Padme around, and he couldn't bear the thought of losing her. He, like the Sith, has always been very self-centered. His compassion for others is often based on his fear of losing them, not any concern for their well-being.

In the case of his trying to leap over Obi-Wan's head and not quite making it, again, he just wasn't thinking. The only thing in his head at that moment was to kill Obi-Wan any way possible, and he didn't even stop to think that he might be taking an unnecessary risk and endangering himself. He was also very arrogant, so even if he had thought about it, he probably would have assumed the risk was negligible.

Here's another example. Consider his chat with Palpatine in the theater. (One of the most spine-chilling scenes in the movie, IMO.) A rational person, as soon as they heard Palpatine mentioning the Sith and this "legend" of Darth Plagueis, would have stopped and said "Waaaait a minute. How would you have learned all these things if even I, as a Jedi, haven't?" Anakin didn't even stop to think that, though. He just realizes Palpy has something he wants and plunges right ahead to ask how he too can acquire it.

RotS Anakin is very different from the Vader we know from the OT. Vader just doesn't do crazy things like that.

 

No...OT Vader doesn't do anything stupid like, say, wasting perfectly capable Imperial Officers just because they lost sight of the Millenium Falcon. He's perfectly rational and clear-headed like that

Bear in mind that Palpatine has been working on Anakin's sensibilities for a good 13 years by the time we get to ROTS. Added to his desire to prove himself due to an inferiority complex, most often fueled in physical ways because physically and with The Force he's incredibly strong, and it's no surprise really.

 

Yeah ROTS just provided a brief glimpse of Palps manipulating Anakin, the EU has a lot more of it.

 

All this talk of Palpatine's hand in Anakin's birth... Boy am I proud of myself. I once wrote this:

Palpatine is Anakin's dad!!

and it just turned into a smily competition.

 

That's a pretty good "I told you so!"

Though no one is ever going to agree if he actually did create Anakin or not.

 

No...OT Vader doesn't do anything stupid like, say, wasting perfectly capable Imperial Officers just because they lost sight of the Millenium Falcon.

Perfectly capable? Admit it, it was a mistake only a complete idiot could make.

"Hmm, the ship is moving to the edge of our sensor zone... and now it's left range! It can't possibly have moved out of the field by getting too close to the ship. It must have vanished into thin air!!"

Plus OT Vader kills people who endanger the clones needlessly - sort of a nice tie-in with Anakin.

 

Well I don't think he's stupid necessarily. He's just blinded by his anger and attachment.

 

I think saying he's stupid is going a little far.

Part of the problem is that Anakin SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN TRAINED. So at the age of 10, or whatever, when he's started to form some healthy relationships (which come with their own dangers), he's thrust into the life of a Jedi.

I think, more than simplistic, Anakin is naive. Why should he be well-versed in politics? He's out saving the galaxy. And in terms of knowing Padme well, he's been out fighting a war - they obviously have a very powerful connection but they've been "living a lie" for the past 3 years.

All Anakin knows is that the Chancellor has been very supportive to him, asking nothing in return. And the last time he had dreams like this, he ignored them for too long, and his mother died.



Just saw the Darth Plagueis scene again. I'm convinced it's a lie - I believe the Sith are TRYING to find the secret to eternal life, but never found it.

Palpatine has been trying to convince Anakin that the Jedi are just the same as the Sith, and Anakin is CLEARLY not buying it.

So there's silence for a few seconds, and you can almost see the gears turning in Palps' head.

Then comes the Darth Plagueis story. During the story, he says something like "fortunately, he taught everything he knew to his apprentice...and then his apprentice killed him in his sleep.

Implying that Palps knows this power.

Then later in the movie, when Anakin becomes Darth Vader (AFTER Anakin has gone too far to turn back, in his mind), Palpatine says "You are incredibly powerful, I have no doubt that together, we will be able to learn this power.

It's pure manipulation.

I think Palpatine believes Anakin IS the Chosen One, but maybe the Sith have their own version of the Prophecy.

At any rate, it's clear to me that Palpatine believes that Anakin is so powerful he'll be able to learn the secret to eternal life?

Why else is he so freaked when he senses "Lord Vader is in trouble?" And he goes to great lengths to give Vader some semblance of life - as if, once Anakin dies, Palpatine's shot at eternal life is gone forever.

 

Here's the big question - does Palpatine actually CARE about Anakin? I think in some sick and twisted way he does. He is cruel and manipulative and horrible to him, but I think that the little part of humanity left in him cares a little bit about Anakin. Maybe not as a son, maybe just as a pet, but I do see a little compassion in there.

 

Palpatine cares abour Anakin because of what he can do for him.

 

Part of the problem is that Anakin SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN TRAINED.

Agreed, but from the moment he destroys the TF ship, he was going to be trained...either by the Jedi or by Sidious, who certainly would have taken Ani under his wing if Obi-Wan had not. And things would have gone far worse for the Republic and the Jedi, who would have been surprised by the sudden appearance of a Darth Vader with no weak spots whatsoever.

 

The sad thing is also how much the Jedi actually fails to train him. By being trained at that late age, he had obviously formed attachments to things.
And the council were unable to adapt to that, and instead trained him (the way I see it at least) like they would train a regular Jedi padawan.

His feelings have been pushed down his entire life, and I think the Jedi Council has a very, very great part in making Anakin the unstable man he is.

Again, that's what I love about the PT. Even though the Jedi represents the "good side", they are very capable of making mistakes.

 

Something that just came to me.
In AotC Count Dooku told Obi Wan taht Nute Gunray came to him, telling him about Darth Sidious and how he was betrayed by him. Yet here we are, three years later, Nute Gunray following Darth Sidious' lead, and being betrayed, once again.

So, this leaves the following options:
1) Count Dooku lied to Obi Wan about the fact, that the Seperatists had nothing to do with Darth Sidious.
1a) Knowing that Obi Wan would never accept Count Dooku, just taking home the idea of Darth Sidious. Which later layed the ground work for the Jedi moving against Palpatine.
1b) Hoping that Obi wan would never learn the truth if he actually joined Dooku.

2) A Plot Hole. As big as the Death Star.

Opinions?

 

It's not a plot hole, Nute may have been betrayed, but Sidious is the reason Nute was never prosecuted for the events of TPM. Nute had no choice but to continue working with him.

 

Has anybody read the novel? Does it shed more light on the Darth Plegius creating life question? I'm hoping the Databank will help once it gets updated with more RotS information.

 

The book doesn't shed any light on it. It plays out almost exactly like in the film.

 

I suppose we'll have to wait for Lucas' DVD commentary for the Plagueis mystery to be resolved.

I never thought the "Gunray being betrayed" thing was a plot hole.

(a) Dooku is being all Sithy, trying to get Obi-Wan to join him, so he's lying through his teeth.

(b) if even Gunray was "betrayed" by Sidious, as mentioned above, he's in thick with the thieves for life - there's no way out. He would have no choice but to accept whatever fate Sidious plans for him.

 

I do think Palpy/Sidious cared about Anakin. I think for me, when Sid touched Anakin's head on Mustafar. Body language says so much, that kind of spoke to me. You wouldn't reach out and touch someone if you didn't care. Of course, the smile he had after saying Padme had died at Anakin's hand...

I'm going to have to ponder this some more.

EDIT: Qui_Gon_Jinn_83, I like what you said about how George has made even the Jedi as human, making mistakes. It's like, they knew he was going to be hard to train but they didn't really make more of an effort to encourage some amount of detachment. It makes one really see in the OT just how ashamed Obi and Yoda are when it comes to discussing Anakin. Another thing, Luke proves that one can be a Jedi even with strong attachments with others.

 

The book points out a reasonable explanation it I think it is truly what Lucas is trying to point out. Anakin attaches loyalty and trust into people, never abstract principles. In his black and white vision, he views the Chancellor as good and so he is loyal to him.

Really the danger of trusting people more than ideals.

Anakin is manipulated but he is placed in a very difficult situation. I can't imagine having visions of the death of loved ones, or being torn between the Jedi order and a man that you percieve as good. It is tough, and while he makes foolish mistakes...it is only as a result of being blinded by arrogance and the need to protect family.

Not all that stupid.

-Seldon

 

Wow...just got back from the theater. Couple of thoughts, and sorry if I repeat stuff said before, but I don't have the patience to go through 10 pages of posts.
1) Someone on the first page said the prophecy might have been wrong, and that Yoda for this reason said it could have been misread. Actually it wasn't - Anakin did fulfill the prophecy, just not in a way that anyone had predicted. He killed Palpatine. No one else could have done that. Not Yoda. Certainly not Luke.
2) The turn to the Dark side was well done. He thought he could save Padme by turning and in fact doomed her -- beautiful, ironic, and of course horribly sad. He'd have to live with that for ever.
3) I now see Vader in such a different way. The poor guy, trapped in that suit and left to deal with his pain. Now I can see how in ROTJ when he says, "I must obey my master" what that truly means.

 

An interesting thing I just thought of, how each of the heroes actually helped to create the Empire:

Obi-Wan: trained Darth Vader
Padme: put Palpatine in office as Chancellor
Jar-Jar: paved the way for unlimited powers for Palpatine
Mace: directly responsible for Anakin's fall by acting too aggressive
Anakin: obviously...

Will be interesting in the future watching these movies for the first time to realize everyone you've been rooting for helped a madman to rule the galaxy.

 

Interesting thoughts storm.
You can add
Qui Gon: For finding Anakin/Vader.
Shimi Skywalker: In some ways for being out and about and being captured.

It seems like only Yoda didn't contribue to it all.

-Seldon