[ROTS] *Official* ROTS In-Depth Discussion Thread

Shmi I would blame for being too nice to Anakin. She seems like an enabler, kind of filling his head full of glowing praise yet never bringing down the hammer.

 

It seems like only Yoda didn't contribue to it all.

If you really want to lay blame on everyone else like that Yoda does deserve some of the blame. He should have stuck to his guts and denied that Anakin be trained. He knew that Anakin had tremendous power, but even more powerful baggage. Plus he could sense Anakin falling in Tatooine, and instead of counciling hhim about it, let him run off w/ Padme.

 

MAybe it was just me, but didn't anyone else feel that after our heores get captured and start escaping and fightin' again like it was time for some serious techno music. Almost thought there was a for a brief 2 seconds. Probably was just sound effects.

 

I just realized something. What makes this movie all the more tragic was how close the Jedi were to winning. If Anakin was able to let go his fear of losing, he could have taking care of Palps. He could have listend to Mace, and not go back to the Senate, not stop Mace from saving the galaxy.

The Jedi were so close to winning.

 

That was the thing though, that was WHY Palpatine baited Mace to come to him.

It was all a set up to get Anakin to turn.

Oh, Mace beat Palpatine with sabers, to be sure, but Palpatine's psuedo-groveling sealed Anakin's turn to the darkside.

BTW, the winner of the Mace duel is explained in The Making of ROTS .

Mace is winning when Anakin arrives, so Palpatine takes the occasion to fake exhaustion and seal Anakin's turn.

Also, the latest issue of Insider reveals in an interview with Ian Mcdiarmid that:

-Deformed Palpatine is Sidious' true form, his manifestation of corruption. It simply bubbles forth at this point, in a "calculated" moment.

-At one point Lucas considered having Sidious switch back to Palpatine, but liked the makeup so much he had it stay.

 

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think Sidious planned Shmi's capture with the tusken raiders. Why would the sandpeople keep Shmi alive? For a month? I know (at least I think I know) that there isn't alot of history of the sandpeople, but to me, they seemed very aggresive and wouldn't keep prisoners. What value would Shmi be to them? And Sidious is the only one I think that could force (no pun intended) the sandpeople to kidnap Shmi and keep her alive (barely). Well, either:
1)He made a deal with them, or;
2)He made up a story to make them think they needed to keep her as a prisoner.
3)Or both.
Also, someone mentioned earlier about possibly inducing Anakin's dreams about his mother, knowing how excessively vunerable he was about her. I'm sure in their time spent together Anakin expressed his grief on more than one occasion about his mother to Palpatine. Palpatine also mentions Anakin's slaughter of the sandpeople in ROTS. Just another step, albeit large one, on his way to the Darkside. Palpatine, the master manipulator.

 

Doesn't the EU contain something saying that Shmi was kept alive as she was being used by the Tuskens in some sort of right-of-passage torture ritual? Granted, it's EU, but it is an interesting explanation.

But then, the groundwork is there, in part at least, for Palpatine possibly picking up on Anakin's fear of losing his mother and deciding to play that card. After all, Ki-Adi-Mundi and Yoda picked up on it when Anakin met with the Council in TPM.

 

^^ I think he capitalized on the situation of Shmi?s capture and death but didn?t orchestrate it. Sidious is powerful but he cant predict everything eg Padme?s decision to return to Naboo in TPM. I think there?s also some info on sand people rituals on the main SW database. But yes there are questions as to how much Sidious planned or knows. For instance how does he know Padme and Anakin are married?

I?ve only seen ROTS once so I feel I should put this disclaimer first. Anyway?.

Regarding Mace vs Palps

hew:True, Mace could have kept deflecting whatever lightning Palpatine sent his way right back at him. So that tells you right there that Palps was in control of the situation. If he really feared for his life he would have simply stopped the lightning. It was a calculated ploy to turn Anakin. Mace had him on the ropes because he wanted to be on the ropes.

I agree. If Palps was in trouble he could simply cut the lightning anytime he wanted. Mace was merely defending himself and reflecting the lightning back. He wasn?t the one generating the lightning. Palps was in control of how much pain he wanted to be in.

Mace opened a can of whoop ass on Palps with a sabre. No doubts there. However I think at the end when Palps resorted to his lightning he limited it to see what Anakin would do. From Wrath_Mania?s post its more clear that it was a set up to get Anakin to turn.


Garth_Maul: I think Palpatine believes Anakin IS the Chosen One, but maybe the Sith have their own version of the Prophecy. At any rate, it's clear to me that Palpatine believes that Anakin is so powerful he'll be able to learn the secret to eternal life?

That was my first impressions too. Palps and Anakin want immortality. They think they can find it by cheating death. Palps hints at this in the opera scene and as you pointed out Palpatine says "only one has mastered the power over death, but I'm sure together we can uncover the secret." The Frankenstein theme of Vader also implies that the "darkside of the force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural". There?s also a clue in AOTC during Anakin?s confession scene about him being powerful enough to stop people from dying.

The first time I saw the opera scene I thought Palps was relating a Sith legend or myth and not facts.

From the way Palps tells his side of the story it?s like he?s telling a legend or a fable. A long time ago there was a great Sith lord who had great power over death but met a tragic demise and as result his powers died with him. It sounds like a Sith myth, and the knowledge to cheat death that the legendary Darth Plagueis had would be rediscovered one day. The Jedi have their prophesy so why cant the Sith? But as you posted earlier it?s ironically the light side of the force which is the way to immortality.

In the end however I don?t think it matters if Darth Plagueis created Anakin or if Anakin was created by immaculate conception.

Whatever the origins of the chosen one are, Anakin was born from midichlorians. He is neutral in the force at conception. He is neither good or bad but just is. From what I understand there?s no good midi?s versus bad midi?s. There?s just midichlorians. This is unlike the force which has the dark and light side that communicate their will through the midi?s. They?re two different things. Throughout his life whether Anakin choses to listen to and follow the dark or light side of the force is completely up to him and that?s the point of the saga. Whether a Sith lord created Anakin or if he was conceived through immaculate conception doesn?t matter IMO.

 

Like I said, I'll wait for the DVD Commentary for the Darth Plagueis story and the Mace/Palpatine fight.

I still think Mace could have won - don't forget Palpatine turns on the lightning when Anakin is already in the room, so Anakin knows Palpatine isn't helpless...Anakin's seen Sith Lightning before.

And Palpatine is constantly increasing the strength of the lightning, or so it seems to me.

There is NO doubt Palps is playing Anakin, but obviously Mace isn't fooled one bit.

Anyway, my last word on the subject (for now) is: Kudos to Lucas for creating such a fantastic scene, it's one of my favorites in the entire Saga, and no wonder Sam Jackson was satisfied with his death scene.


As far as the Prophecy goes, we obviously never get to hear the actual wording of the Prophecy, but understand this: prophecy by its very nature MUST be vague. There still must be free will.

Prophecy says what is going to happen and who is going to make which choices; it's not an instruction manual for how to act in a given situation.

The Jedi probably get freaked out when Anakin is found, because I'm sure the Prophecy talks about dark times. They probably assume, BECAUSE THE PROPHECY SAYS SO, that ONLY Anakin can stop the Sith and restore balance, and they can do nothing to help.

So when Anakin is conflicted, Yoda and Mace start talking about how they might have been mistaken about the Prophecy - not really, boys - things just aren't unfolding the way you thought they would.

 

Does anyone know if Liam Neeson actually filmed a cameo and it was just cut? I remember hearing rumors so when QGJ was mentioned and not seen, I was kind of surprised. Disappointed too, as he's one of my favorite characters.

However, I realized that it makes sense not to show him - or if he's restored in the DVD, just for a real quick instant. That way, when watching it 1-6, this power isn't fully demonstrated until Obi-Wan sacrifices himself on the Death Star. We get the Qui-Gon voice in AOTC, Yoda's explanation in ROTS, but then in ANH we know that Ben has mastered this and knows what to do to help Luke.

 

I'd like to add one little bit of commentary here before I add any larger thoughts.

When people found out that Hayden was going to be in the suit, they whined and swore that Vader would be short and tiny. They were completely wrong.

To all you "Darth Mittens" whiners, I dub thee Owned.

 

IIRC, originally Yoda was going to hear Qui-Gon's voice. I'm glad we didn't get to see Qui-Gon appear as a Ghost Jedi; that way, when Obi-Wan disappears in ANH and re-appears on Hoth, it will still seem cool.

In (I think) Dark Rendezvous and Labyrinth of Evil, Yoda can communicate, in a way, with Qui-Gon when he is deep in meditation.

 

EDIT: Double post.

Just watched ROTS for the 2nd time. I think I liked it even better.

The Duel was absolutely amazing - not only the fighting, but the body language and expressions of Kenobi and Skywalker, and the fact that they're basically fighting in hell is amazing.

The shot of Anakin looking (from hell) into a sun that is being clouded over is, IMHO, one of the greatest shots of all time.

Vader's "Nooooooo" bugged me even less. So many haters in 3SA can't stand any of Vader's lines spoken by James Earl Jones. I love them all. "Where is Padme?"

And you're right, storm - Palpatine's telling Vader he killed Padme was so cruel. When Vader screams in agony, Palpatine gets this little smirk on his face. Boy, I can't wait till he gets tossed down a bottomless chasm.


Oh yeah, in The Duel, did anyone else notice this?

It's hard to tell, but when the lava is really erupting and they kind of pause for a second, it looks like Obi-Wan either pushes or Force pushes Anakin towards the (relative) safety of one of the pillars.

It happens really quickly, but I was thinking "Man, Obi-Wan is STILL looking out for Anakin, even when he's trying to kill him!" Got me choked up all over again.


In terms of Anakin sitting in the Council chambers whilst the Posse is going to confront Palps, it's funny: the first time I saw the movie, I thought it was telepathic communication from Palps, along the lines of "Run, Luke, run" or "Leia....Leia....Luke?".

This time it seemed more like a flashback...

Anyway, those of you who think it's telepathic communication, doesn't that imply that Palps knows he'll need Anakin there? Maybe not...

 

Of course it means that. Just shows how clever Palpy is



So he is a changeling
/LM

 

Also, the latest issue of Insider reveals in an interview with Ian Mcdiarmid that:

-Deformed Palpatine is Sidious' true form, his manifestation of corruption. It simply bubbles forth at this point, in a "calculated" moment.

-At one point Lucas considered having Sidious switch back to Palpatine, but liked the makeup so much he had it stay.

Nice one Wrath_Mania. I was always of the belief that 'deformed' Palps was actually his true self - he simply chose to reveal it at that point for various reasons; Firstly, it appeared to Anakin as though he was being injured by Mace. Secondly, his 'scars' garnered sympathy from the Senate. And finally, he no longer had reason to hide his appearance from the Jedi.

In another interview (Empire magazine) Ian also said the following:

"...George said 'You should think of Palpatine's eyes as his contact lenses...' So there?s Palpatine's eyes, and my eyes, and that was interesting. So, in fact, his face, which is the same as mine, was the unreal aspect. My own face was the mask. And then I get into the mask, that is the evil person ? that?s the real face."

Compelling evidence, I believe, that scary Palps is the real Palps. And further evidence that Mace wasn't really hurting Palpatine (with force lightning) at that stage of the fight!

 

It's too bad Lucas decided not to have him change again at some point in the movie, because the way it is now, it looks as though he really was deformed by the lightning attack. I thought he was until I read this thread.



Yep
/LM

 

As far as the Prophecy goes, we obviously never get to hear the actual wording of the Prophecy, but understand this: prophecy by its very nature MUST be vague. There still must be free will.

Yep I agree but is there one prophesy for the Jedi and one for the Sith? Both with different purposes for Anakin to be born?

RE: Darth Plagueis

I was just thinking the story of Darth Plageius might actually be true and not a myth. What if Sifo Dyas was really Darth Plagueis who ordered the clones and created Anakin.

Palpatine was Sifo Dyas? apprentice. He killed him and trained Maul to be his apprentice. Then the rest is history.

 

`As far as the Prophecy goes, we obviously never get to hear the actual wording of the Prophecy'

Maybe there is no wording. Maybe visions.

`I was just thinking the story of Darth Plageius might actually be true and not a myth.'

The ROTS novel says it's true.

`Palpatine was Sifo Dyas? apprentice.'

Everyone should see the novelisation. There's interesting pieces in it. Palpatine saying he'd offer Sideous a cup of tea for example.

 

Garth: It's hard to tell, but when the lava is really erupting and they kind of pause for a second, it looks like Obi-Wan either pushes or Force pushes Anakin towards the (relative) safety of one of the pillars.

I didn't see that, but I definitely got the feeling that Obi-Wan was repeatedly holding back. You can also see it in the way he kept trying to convince Anakin to turn back, and in his ease in finally defeating him.

I don't think Obi-Wan's importantance has been stressed enough in this thread so far. Throughout the whole saga, the center of the conflicts lie in concepts of love and attachment. Anakin's attachment to Padme is generally seen as the main catalyst for his descent to evil.

However, I think it's Obi-Wan's attachment to Anakin which is really what the galaxy hinged upon. I mean, how could he not have sensed Anakin's internal conflicts? His love for Padme, his hatred and lust for revenge over Dooku, and his agony over the loss of his mother... Obi-Wan knew Anakin better than anyone. (He obviously knew at least about Padme even on a conscious or near-conscious level, shown in his line "He's the father, isn't he?") If he had allowed himself to admit what he knew in his heart, he could have intervened.

But ultimately, Obi-Wan couldn't bring himself to accept what Anakin was capable of, nor turn him into the Council. He loved him too much. We see this subtle plot reach it's climax in the duel; even when it's obvious Anakin is fighting to kill Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan still holds back. Even when he's defeated his Padawan and he's lying disfigured on the beach screaming that he hates Obi-Wan... Obi-Wan doesn't finish him and Darth Vader is truly born because of it.

It's really an extraordinaty duality in the saga. Obi-Wan and Anakin both loved so much that they destroyed their loved ones.

It ties right into ANH, as well. Obi-Wan is an ex-Jedi Knight, exiled, quietly hating himself for his great failure.

Amazing saga.

 

^^ That was really interesting and I think you're absolutely right. You can sometimes see on Obi-Wan's face that he doesn't want to fight Anakin. When he jumps off the tower that's falling into the lava river and we don't see Anakin for a while, he looks worried and later, he even warns Anakin that he has "the higher ground" and can defeat Anakin.

Before I saw RotS, I had a hard time relating to Obi-Wan in ANH when he goes to fight Vader. But now I understand him. He's been regretting the decision he made on Mustafar 19 years earlier, letting Anakin/Vader live. Now, he has the chance to do the right thing instead, that he wasn't strong enough to do before. Of course, he doesn't kill him this time either, but that's another thing...

 

I think the creation of Anakin was left ambiguous on purpose because the Sith and Jedi have their own interpretation of the Chosen One.

The Sith believe the Chosen One was created from the midi-chlorians by a Sith Lord, and the Jedi believe the Chosen One was a virgin birth, conceived by the midi-chlorians themselves from the will of the Force.

Regardless of which is true, the Chosen One needed to happen to bring balance. What both the Sith and Jedi really don't know is how that balance is ultimately achieved. No Jedi or Sith would want to admit that they needed to be purged to achieve this balance. They would only assume that the elimination of the other side (light or dark) would bring balance. They were wrong. The Force determined the outcome, and both had to be wiped out to begin a new era of Jedi with Luke.

"Always in motion the future is."

One thing seems to throw a wrench into the Sith's creation of Anakin. If Sidious knew about Anakin's birth and his childhood on Tatooine, and then orchestrated the capture of his mother, how come Sidious never tries to find any other Jedi or Force-aware beings that could be hiding there? Luke would have been discovered easily in 20 years time, especially with the obvious Skywalker name. If he's only letting Vader do the purging then it's a bad move, because Vader would never want to have to revisit his mother's grave and avoids it altogether.

 

I'd also like to ask all of you, how did you feel about the Palpatine/Sidious/Emperor character?

I must say, he wasn't what I expected at all, but I really liked how crazy he was. After playing so much in the shadows, you could tell that he was "happy" to reveal his true self I think.
I loved him during the Yoda fight. Some people laughed at the way he cackled, and I can see why, but I just thought it was great for the character.

The only thing I didn't really buy was Palpatines face while fighting Mace (the closeups to Ian's face felt kinda weird, but it didn't take me out of the scene), and the "No, no, no!" which just felt... I don't know. I like the thought of it, but it came off very odd, and I can see why audience can laugh at it (even though I didn't, I was so emerged into the film at that point.)

The weird grunting noises after Mace gets blown out the window, I really liked. Again, I can understand that people find it funny, but I thought it was very cool and it really felt like not only his appearance was changing, but his voice also.

Overall, I think Ian did very well. There's a pretty broad range of emotions going on. From quite friendly like after returning for his "kidnapping", to very smooth seduction of Anakin and onto the mad cackling Emperor.

 

I think the first scene from a character perspective that freaked me out in the movie was when Palpatine said, "Are you threatening me, Master Windu?", or something like that. He practically snarled at Mace when he said it. That instant really showed me the evilness Palpatine truly personified.

I realized his swordplay wasn't all that great, at least not against the best Jedi. If it wasn't for his lightning, he would have been offed by Mace rather quickly. (*Sidenote*-It was really cool to see how powerful Mace was after hearing about it for so long, SLJ did a great job of potraying the powerful Master Windu).

Overall, Sidious was what I expected him to be. He also seemed to be more fallible than I imagined, which makes his character more interesting.

 

Regarding the comments about waiting for the DVD to hear the truth about Sidious and Mace and Anakin and all the mysteries we're wondering about...I sincerely hope there is no definitive answer. I like the fact that we can all draw our own conclusions. And frankly I don't care what Lucas or McCallum or anyone says in interviews or commentaries or whatever, I'm gonna intepret the story the way I want to!

 

Fair enough.

I can see that Sidious is the TRUE appearance, and not Palpatine.

I just think that means Palps is using the Force CONSTANTLY to keep his appearance human. You'd think the Jedi would be able to detect that.

"Powerful you have become, Dooku. The Dark Side, I sense in you."

I think Force users can only sense each other's presence when that person is using the Force - thus, Vader kinda senses Obi-Wan on the Death Star, but it isn't until he Mind Tricks the Stormtroopers by the tractor beam that Vader is sure.

If Palps/Sidious rarely, rarely, rarely used the Force, I can see why the Jedi wouldn't suspect him. But if he's constantly using it to mask his true appearance, it's a bit harder to believe.