[ROTS] *Official* ROTS In-Depth Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Garth Maul, May 18, 2005.

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  1. Mr. P FanFic Archive Editor, Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2000
    star 5
    I agree, GM. These mysteries should not be revealed.

    Someone was talking above about how the prophesy might have been visions........ well, consider what visions did to Anakin and Luke, they don't seem to be all that true all the time or at least easily misinterpreted...
  2. Wrath_Mania Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2004
    star 4
    I still think one of the most haunting images in the movie is Yoda looking up at his cloak hanging from the chancellor's podium in the Rotunda, with Sidious laughing like a madman in the distance.

    And I wouldn't say Sidious is a bad swordsmen. Unstoppable with one? No. But he does take out three Jedi masters in a flash of an eye, stalemates with Yoda, and was fairly even with Windu until the magic kick.
  3. Harlowe Thrombey Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 1999
    star 2
    I still haven't been able to see this Obi-Wan push that some people have been able to see. I'll keep looking though. I think that I have actually flip-flopped on a couple of these issues we've been debating:

    Now I think that Mace beat Palps straight up with lightsabers, but that he was faking, or at the least exaggerating, from then on for Anakin's benefit. In the previous scene with Anakin and Palpy, we saw him gamble with his own life, with his back to Annie's laser sword. And he did recover quickly after the battle was over.

    Before I thought that he did actually roast his face into ROTJ-style wrinkles, because the box for that figure said something like "He unleashes the power of the force on Mace Windu, with frightening results." and also you could see smoke coming from his face. But the more I see the Emperor with his ROTJ face, it feels more and more "natural" to me. If you buy that he was exaggerating his weakness in the fight with Mace, he was probably using his appearance to help turn Annie as well.

    I haven't figured out what I think about the Sith creating Anakin...

    I'm glad we didn't see Qui-Gon, I think it would have been too cheesy, or at the minimum, easy to screw up.

    I think its great that Lucas made a film that answered so many questions we were dying to know about and at the same time create so many more for us to debate! For all you 3NSAers, I would recommend the Making of Book...just got it and let me tell you, it is really interesting to see the process of how this film came to be. It shows how the script and story evolved through time, and its interesting to see what ideas made it into the film and what got cut. Overall, I'm very happy with the results!

  4. arrowheadpodracer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 5
    The best argument Ive heard that Palpatine is just manipuating Anakin during the fight with Mace, is that he could have stopped the lightning at any time.
    It makes sense that if you try shooting lightning at someone, and it immediately deflects back at you, obviously doing more damage to you than the person you are attacking, you might want to stop.
    If he was looking for that last thing to push the kid over the edge, and figured it was either that or death(which it seems to me that it was), then he had nothing to lose. Might as well make himself look like he was being attacked.

    Regarding the saber battle leading up to that, I dont know. Tough call. Palpatine starts out backing Mace down the hall, but once they get into his office and square off, Mace seems to have things in control.
    Does it say any more in the book? Does Palptine know Anakin is coming and throw the fight?
  5. Darth_Sailant Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2004
    star 1
    I would recommend the Making of Book...just got it and let me tell you, it is really interesting to see the process of how this film came to be. It shows how the script and story evolved through time, and its interesting to see what ideas made it into the film and what got cut.
    I concur. I've been reading this fascinating book since Friday, and am almost through it now. Many of the issues we've been debating are either answered, or at least fleshed-out somewhat.
  6. thenink Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 2
    So many haters in 3SA can't stand any of Vader's lines spoken by James Earl Jones. I love them all. "Where is Padme?"

    That line alone sent shivers down my spine....wow. It was great!
  7. youngvader Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 1999
    star 5
    I think Palpy is faking a bit to draw Anakin to his side but there is no doubt in my mind that without Anakin's intervention, Mace would've prevailed.
  8. Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    I don't think Palpatine is meant to be using the Force to mask his true appearance. Remember what was introduced but never really used in AOTC: the concept of changelings.
    Palpatine is simply a changeling! It fits well with his character. Deceptive by nature, full of lies.



    That must be it
    /LM
  9. Darth_Sailant Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2004
    star 1
    I don't think Palpatine is meant to be using the Force to mask his true appearance. Remember what was introduced but never really used in AOTC: the concept of changelings. Palpatine is simply a changeling!
    Interesting theory. This crossed my mind also... It would also explain the apparent previous lack-of-reason for introducing a Changeling in AOTC.
  10. Kiki-Gonn Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2001
    star 6
    On Sidious' appearance.

    The voice is the key. His true voice slips out prior to his transformation. It is an ugly, demonic voice and it is an indication of his true nature. That true nature includes a ugly, demonic appearance. The sweet Palpatine voice is clearly a mask of the real one. Doesn't it make sense that his appearance is also a mask?

    The fight. I say Mace legitimately got the upper hand but Sidious feings weakness from that point.
    1) He recovers as if he just took a nap instead of fought for his life.
    2) He knocks Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hands with force lightning.
  11. stormcloud8 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    Regarding Vader's lines...they are perfect. So great. I couldn't get "Where is Padme?" out of my head. The NOOOOOOOOO is a little cheesy but not as bad the second time.

    As far as Palpatine, I do think he was faking. But another viewpoint you could take - he could not stop shooting the lightning, because that was the only thing holding Mace's saber back from killing him.
  12. Wrath_Mania Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2004
    star 4
    Exactly, and the Making of ROTS book confirms as much.

    Palpatine loses the lightsaber duel, but by then Anakin arrives, so it doesn't matter to him.

    Now, if Anakin hadn't intervened, yeah, Palpatine woulda been screwed. But this guy has always taken risks to get apprentices (whether it be the space battle earlier in the movie, or the events that mirror it in Jedi).

    ****

    Anyways, here's Lucas in a RollingStones article about Anakin's conception:

    Now, there's a hint in the movie that there was a Sith lord who had the power to create life. But it's left unsaid: Is Anakin a product of a super-Sith who influenced the midichlorians to create him, or is he simply created by the midichlorians to bring forth a prophecy, or was he created by the Force through the midichlorians? It's left up to the audience to decide. How he was born ultimately has no relationship to how he dies, because in the end, the prophecy is true: Balance comes back to the Force.
  13. stormcloud8 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    Did Lucas actually say that, or is that the interpretation of Rolling Stone? Cause if Lucas purposefully left it vague and unanswered, I love him even more than before.
  14. arrowheadpodracer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 5
    agreed. I dont want that question answered.


    But, its fun to think about. :)
    With regards to the timeline - Plagueis couldnt have done it. Too many Sith. Considering when Anakin had to be conceived, Sidious already had Maul. If Plagueis did it, he obviously wasnt dead yet, so that makes 3 sith, working on a fourth.
    HIGHLY unlikely, IMO.
    So we're left with Palpatine or immacu-midichlorian conception.

    I dont want to know.



    Palpatine a changeling?
    I dont think so.
    That takes way too much speculation that was never touched on in the films. We see him "change" ONCE, when he is blasted in the face by lightning. And its a slow change.
    (And why wouldnt he ever change back? Or change into something else?)

    Just because changelings exists, it doesnt mean that everyone who changes appearance is one of them.
  15. stormcloud8 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    Just because Maul was around doesn't mean Sidious or Plageuis couldn't have side projects. Sidious knows that at some point he's going to fight Maul, so assuming that he believes he will win, he'll need another apprentice. You'd have to imagine that at any given time he probably has his eye on several replacements.
  16. arrowheadpodracer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 5
    "had his eye on several replacements" - yes. definitely.
    But to just keep an eye on the kid who was created by his master to become the ultimate sith?

    Sounds pretty casual.
    That seems wrong to me, considering how much effort must have gone into the boys creation.
    Only one person had the power to create life (with the force/midis). I dont think he'd do it as a "side project".

    "only two there are."

    And if there could be more than two sith, the floodgates are open for all kinds of crazy possiblities. I'm trying to stick to the information that was given to us. In the films. (Occasionally backed up by EU.)

    Dooku doesnt come in until Maul is gone. Anakin doesnt come in until Dooku is gone.
    I'm sure Palpatine talks to both of them before they turn (I'm speculating for Dooku), but I dont think he'd bet foolish enough to try and... create a new apprentice while he had a good one.
    There doesnt seem to be any need. (And the risk isnt really necessary.)
  17. Wrath_Mania Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2004
    star 4
    Yes, the quote's from Lucas.

    As for just which Sith created Anakin, if that's actually true, it should be noted that according to THE MAKING OF ROTS book, that in the rough draft Sidious directly told Anakin he created him through the midichlorians. This hooked Anakin to the darkside.

    One of the last sentences in the Making of Book goes as such:

    "He is a mental slave to his metaphorical if not biological father, the Emperor."

    If the Sith did create Anakin, it was probably Sidious.
  18. arrowheadpodracer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 5
    I agree with that. IF the Sith created him, it had to be Palpatine.


    I'd just rather not think of it that way. :p





    These Palpatine discussions have been interesting. On other boards too, so many seem to think that Palps had it ALL figured out, and he knew EVERYTHING, and blah blah blah.
    He didnt.

    "A small rebel force has penetrated the shield and landed on Endor."
    "Yes, I know."
    "...My son is with them (dumbass)."
    "Are you sure?"

    doh!

    seconds later:
    "He will come to me?"
    "Yes.... I have forseen it."

    Riiiiiiiiiiiiight. Sure he did. Just now, I guess.


    "This is an unexpected move for her. Its too aggressive."

    For someone who forsees everything, he sure seemed surprised.

    "I want that treaty signed."

    sucks to be you. she aint signing.

    lost a ship? call Maul, because Palpatine has no idea where it is. (even though its in the same place as his.... side project.)

    "You have been well trained, my apprentice. They will be no match for you."

    Well, Maul did kill ONE Jedi. :p

    "Master Windu, youre here sooner than I expected."

    Great forsight.


    The guy is wrong quite a bit. Yes, he eventually rules the galaxy, but he losses 2 apprentices before he finally settles for half-an-Anakin, and a deformed face.
    All part of the plan?

    I dont think so.

    and of course, lets not forget his final scene.

    Did he see that coming too?
    Didnt seem like it to me.
  19. stormcloud8 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    Well he may be wrong sometimes, but not as wrong as Ki-Adi Mundi, the great Overstater of All Things Wrong.
  20. arrowheadpodracer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 5
    Actually... I think Mace is wrong the most. LOL


    my point is - theyre all confused. Theyre all scrambling. its a contest. a CLOSE contest. nothing is guaranteed.
    Its all a gamble, and Sidious is the best card player.
  21. stormcloud8 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    Yes. Can you imagine having to play poker against Sidious? What a nightmare.
  22. arrowheadpodracer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 5
    "Oh, look. Four aces again.
    A surprise, to be sure. But a welcome one."
  23. Whizkid Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 11, 2003
    star 4

    I love how may risks Palpatine took in the movie. He entrusted his life to Anakin on the Invisible Hand, allowed Anakin to draw a saber to his back, and nearly lost everything to Mace, but trusted Anakin would intervene. He realized that risks needed to take place for his ultimate plan to succeed.
  24. Wrath_Mania Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2004
    star 4
    No, Sidious isn't omnipotent. But for every mistake you listed there, and some of them aren't even mistakes, he has triple the victories.

    Sidious has great foresight, but he's even better at taking a setback and making it a plus for him.

    For instance, yeah, the Queen gets away from Naboo. Oh well. He just gets what he wants by using her to call Valorum out of office instead.

    Mace disarms him? No problem, Anakin's gonna show up; he can kill two birds with one stone (Kill Mace and seal Anakin's turn).

    He's the puppet master.

    EDIT: And that's why he runs from Yoda; no possible setback that he would be able to take advantage of. He has to fight straight up here.

    Of course, when he does, only two in the saga would ever be able to match him (Anakin an eventual third, of course, had it not been for the splish splash).
  25. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Just so.

    Let's not forget Vader being beaten down by Kenobi, which is pretty major.

    If he WAS Palpatine's "pet" project, why have him trained by the Jedi? You don't know how he's going to turn out, maybe he would have been the model Jedi, and he and Obi-Wan would have wiped out the Sith completely.
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