[ROTS] *Official* ROTS In-Depth Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Garth Maul, May 18, 2005.

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  1. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Well, I had thought for a while that Luke might have been born first as a kind of "half-assed" explanation for why Leia could remember her mother and Luke couldn't.

    The birth order was never important to me.
  2. vacantlook Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2004
    star 2
    I think I had kinda always thought Leia had been born first solely because I've always seen her as much more mature than Luke in ANH. It's weak and pathetic reasoning, but that's what I had. But then, I also never really thought about it much.
  3. hippie1kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 2
    Did he "implant" the dreams of Padme dying? I don't think so, I doubt he's that powerful. But Yoda was able to see what Luke saw in his visions of Cloud City, it's possible Palpatine saw something similar to Anakin and decided to exploit it.

    Here is my take on why I think Palps planted the dreams in Anakin's mind.

    Palps obviously knows exactly what is going on in Anakin's mind. While he is wooing him to the darkside he makes the comment about having the power to "Save Padme from certain death". The "WTH" reaction by Anakin makes it clear that he has not discussed this with Palps. This then means that Palps either planted the dreams there or was able to read Anakin's feelings in a very specific way. I just find the former theory more interesting than the later.


    On the Mace/Palps duel I think Mace had him during the saber duel but after that Palpatine is mostly accting to help convince Anakin to turn.... which probably increased Palpatine's connection to the Dark side.

    I think Palpatine throws out that last huge bolt of lightining and hops ups so quickly not because he was 100% faking, but because he now has an apprentice far stronger than the last two clowns and he is now filled with dark side energy.
  4. SWJaggy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2003
    star 4
    I think I had kinda always thought Leia had been born first solely because I've always seen her as much more mature than Luke in ANH.

    My reason exactly.
  5. origjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2001
    star 3
    Hi SWJaggy,

    I never really thought about who was born first. If I had had to bet someone on it before the movie came out I guess I would have went with Luke just because I'm older than my sister and I'm used to that (no, were not twins).
  6. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    hippie - you're right about Anakin's reaction to Palps telling him he knows how to save Padme. I forgot about that.

    However, I think it's the Force that is showing Anakin these visions, just as Luke did in ESB (what was Yoda's line again? "Through the Force, visions you will see. Friends and places, something something").

    And since it's kind of a foresight thing, and the Shroud of the Dark Side has fallen, Palps is the only other person that can see it. Notice Yoda doesn't try to see the vision that Anakin has had, like he does with Luke in ESB.

    It's not canon, but in the AOTC novelization, Yoda says that, to see the future, the Jedi have to use the Dark Side ("pierce the Veil of the Dark Side").
  7. origjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2001
    star 3
    Garth,

    Do you feel it's because it something that a Jedi shouldn't want to see? Maybe because, in wanting to see the future, it perhaps suggests worrying about the future which is what a Jedi shouldn't do? Worry? Perhaps because that suggests fear?
  8. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Hmmmmmm....meditate on this I will.

    It's almost like the Force is testing Anakin - "hey, Anakin - we'll send you a vision of something that you have a problem with. How do you respond?"

    For Anakin, it was Padme.

    For Luke, it was his friends on Bespin.

    The attachments can be healthy and have a lot of positive aspects for the Skywalkers, but they are both so emotional and impulsive, they get in trouble.

    Cool icon, by the way.
  9. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Just watched it again. This movie, despite its pacing, actually has a fair bit of depth to it.

    - Look at Palpatine's left hand shake when Anakin discovers he's the Sith Lord they've been looking for. He's not absolutely sure that Anakin isn't going to kill him. At least, IMHO. Palps seems nervous throughout his "join me' speech - he's doing some fast talking.

    - I like the way Anakin falls back and sits down HARD after betraying the Jedi and helping kill Mace.

    - I also like the way he says to Sidious, "I pledge myself to your teachings" - which isn't an endorsement so much of Sidious as it is the Sith teachings. It's pretty obvious, in my mind, that Anakin is pretty disgusted at himself and at Sidious. But saving Padme is so important to him, he'll do anything.

    - I also like the way Sidious says something like "if we don't kill the Jedi quickly, the galaxy will again be in civil war". Anakin's tired of fighting, tired of pointless politics, he wants to be with Padme and the babies.


    - Anakin knows, deep down inside, that what he's doing is wrong, and that Padme would disapprove. First of all, when he comes back from butchering younglings, he toes the "party line" and says the Jedi are trying to take over the Republic, and that he saw Mace Windu try to assassinate Chancellor Palpatine.

    That's quite a spin to put on things, especially because he knows what really happened.

    Then, on Mustafar, since Obi-Wan told Padme that Anakin went Dark Side and she's freaking out, he starts trying to convince her political side that, if she doesn't like Palpatine, that's fine - he can overthrow him, and they can rule the galaxy together.

    He's doing some serious spin doctoring, sugar-coating the truth so Padme doesn't leave him. The sign of a desperate, desperate man.

    - the scenes from the time Anakin is looking out at the sun being clouded over on Mustafar to the end credits are all brilliant.
  10. Ghost_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2003
    star 5
    Here's the thing about Palps knowing about Ani's dream. Anakin's thoughts are betraying him. Palps is reading him like an open book. All Palps is doing is reading the "How to Convert a Jedi to Sith for Dummies" w/ Anakin.
  11. TheVioletBurns Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    star 4
    He's doing some serious spin doctoring, sugar-coating the truth so Padme doesn't leave him. The sign of a desperate, desperate man.

    Definitely. I also feel like he can hardly face the truth himself, and that's part of why he dodges it (or spin-doctors it, as you say) - like during the Mustafar reunion scene, when Padme confronts him about the Younglings - he looks away and latches onto the excuse "Obi-Wan is trying to turn you against me", to try to avoid the issue altogether.

    That sort of disassociation is witnessed even on his face as he carries out the Younglings slaughter - you can see that he is completely detached, out of himself and focusing on what Palpatine says "must be done". If ever he gives himself a chance to dwell on what he's done, he begins to break down (that lone tear on Mustafar, and I believe during his whole slaughter of the Separatist leaders, we get a glimpse of the lower half of his face mid-saber-swing and it looks as if his resolve is cracking even then. He's disgusted with himself).

    He knows he is condemned. He's crossed the line. There's no going back, and he can't stand to look back, so he just keeps moving relentlessly forward.

    That's part of what makes the film so disturbing to watch... Anakin is so messed up in the head, he makes me messed up just following his train of thought... but the scary thing is, I can. No matter how twisted and wrong it is, I can still understand it. And that's testament to some stellar storytelling. (And well-nuanced acting by Hayden, too, who never gets enough credit for what he's done with the character IMO).
  12. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    Two of my favorite lines are right before the big choke:

    "Liar!"

    "I don't want to hear any more about Obi-Wan."

    Those two lines show how far he's slipped into jealous delusional paranoia - and is about to resort to spousal abuse. And the look on Padme's face when she sees that Obi-Wan snuck on board her ship...she knows she's screwed.
  13. CoolHanLuke Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2004
    star 2
    We can see Anakin is extremely angry with Obi-wan.

    Ever since AOTC, "It's all Obi-wan's fault...he's holding me back," Anakin is really getting on Obi-wan's case. Do you think he was sincere when he apologized to him for not being appreciative for this training? When they parted ways, I could tell there was conflict going on inside of him by the look on his face.

    Maybe I'm missing something, but, why is Anakin so pissed off at Obi-wan? I mean, when Obi-wan tells him to "Get out of here...there's nothing more you can do," Anakin reminds him of his care by saying, "I'm not leaving without you, Master." Even near the end of their duel, Anakin says, "This the end for you, my Master." I mean, he's wanting to take his head off, and he still calls him "My Master."

    Their battle-royale just crushes me because I know how close they once were. After Obi-wan tells Anakin, "You were the chosen One...," the look of desperation on Anakin's face tells me that he realizes he's made the biggest mistake of his life. It's almost like he's crying out to Obi-wan, "HELP ME!" :_|
  14. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Anakin IS strange. He's the poster boy hero of the Clone Wars, the Chosen One, the youngest appointed to the Council.

    Yet in some ways, he measures everything by Kenobi.

    In fact, that's going to be my new motto: WWKD? What Would Kenobi Do?


    I'm going to see the movie again tomorrow night, and this time I'm really going to use it as a critique of the entire PT.

    Lucas was brilliant to make ROTS so personal: it's really all about relationships. Anakin and Obi-Wan, Anakin and Dooku and Palpatine, Mace and Anakin and Palpatine, Yoda and Anakin, Yoda and Sidious, Obi-Wan and Grievous. Bail and Yoda and Obi-Wan. Anakin and Padme. Obi-Wan and Padme.

    Lucas goes very galactic and subtle and slow in the first two films, but this is so personal - and that's one big thing that makes it more like the OT.

    We get these characters all acting out of desperation, and hate and love for each other.

    But because the personal journeys in ROTS are the most important part, much of the galactic plot is brushed over very lightly.

    I would have liked even 30 seconds more of the Jedi Purge (not 1/2 the movie like some people though 8-}), and some of the cool stuff in ROTS could have been touched on more in TPM and AOTC...
  15. vacantlook Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2004
    star 2
    Ever since AOTC, "It's all Obi-wan's fault...he's holding me back," Anakin is really getting on Obi-wan's case. Do you think he was sincere when he apologized to him for not being appreciative for this training? When they parted ways, I could tell there was conflict going on inside of him by the look on his face.


    Maybe it's similar to the sentiment Anakin expressed to Padmé over his wanting more power. Anakin told her he wanted more power, but knew that he shouldn't. Perhaps similarly, Anakin knew he should be appreciative of Obi-Wan's training, but wasn't.
  16. Jomero Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 1999
    star 3
    I loved this movie. After my friend and I watched it, we weren't feeling depressed or sad. We both felt strongly, "Ok, we HAVE to see the next ones!" So, we did. We watched all 3 of the OT at my house back to back.

    The interesting thing is, watching the OT after seeing ROTS is a whole new experience. If you watch those movies with the knowledge of what you already have, it almost makes the OT better. Believe it or not, we both found it odd but quite entertaining. Certain small things that you never paid much attention to, pop out a lot more after seeing the prequels. Obviously, they were never meant to pop out, but having the pre-knowledge it is easy to fill in the blanks as to why they are there. For instance, Obi-Wan seems to reeeeeally pick and choose his words carefully when telling Luke about his father in ANH. Other things will stand out as well. I knew a lot of people always wondered why Vader was less of a badass in ROTJ. After watching them again, I think it's because he started to change after Luke stood up to him (at the end of ESB) and the Dark Side. I don't think Anakin ever thought that was possible or even a possibility. Seeing his son have the strength and courage to do what he could not probably started the slow change.

    When the dvds came out, I wasn't sure how I felt about Hayden being put into ROTJ at the end. After seeing Sith and seeing these movies again, I would rant, rave, and make a HUGE stink if they ever took Hayden out and put the original actor back in. Seeing Hayden after seeing ROTS just makes it that much more emotionally powerful.
  17. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    Interesting point about Vader changing because Luke stood up to him in TESB. In that final moment when the Falcon blasts into Hyperspace, and Vader stares silently out the window...poor Admiral Piett waits, terrified, for his death. But it never comes. Was Vader already starting to become more human again?

    I'd always thought it was because he liked Piett, but maybe it had to do with him starting to feel love and compassion again. That's great. I love that perspective.
  18. vacantlook Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2004
    star 2
    For instance, Obi-Wan seems to reeeeeally pick and choose his words carefully when telling Luke about his father in ANH.


    Having watched ANH since seeing RotS, I too find Obi-Wan to be doing so.
  19. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    After ROTS and looking back at AOTC, I find that the love between Anakin and Padme, became even more heart breaking. Padme really was trying to be a pillar for him. Anakin really failed her. :_|
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