[ROTS] *Official* ROTS In-Depth Discussion Thread

I agree with JMax. The look of confusion on his face was priceless. I am surprised the Dooku, filled with Dark Side rage, didn't blurt out some comment to his master prior to Anakin killing him.

 

Yeah Dooku was a co-conspirator with Palpy/Sidious all along .... which is why he was so shocked when Palpy turned on him. The look on his face wouldn't have worked if he didn't know that Palpy had staged the whole thing.

 

Speaking of Palpatine/Sidious, who was that poster who said we'd all be sorry and he'd have the last laugh when it was revealed that Palpy WASN'T Sidious? I have a plate of crow to serve him, hot off the grill.

 

Another point in the Mace-Palpatine discussion ... Palpy used his scars to gain sympathy with the Senate, so that's another reason to believe he let Mace get the upper hand.

 

One thing that was in ROTS that I felt would have helped AOTC tremendously was the japor snippet. It would have made Padme's falling in love with Anakin that much more believable. Why wasn't that in AOTC!?!?!? Anakin falling head over heals for Padme is easy to understand. Padme, was more mature, grounded. Had she kept that and just glanced at it once to show that she actually had thought about him over the previous 10 years, I think that would have added tons of credibility to her falling for him.

 

Favorite new line from ANH after seeing ROTS:

"Escape is not his plan. I must face him...alone."

You can just tell how much Vader is DYING for a rematch to kick this guy's ass. He has probably dreamed of this moment for 20 years.

 

Japor snippet in AOTC? Sure, that would have been nice but it's not a big deal. She fell in love with him not in the bad fireplace scene but in the magnificent Tatooine scenes where she can't help but fall in love with a man who's suffering greatly... who needs her desperately.

I neeed time to catch up on this thread so sorry if this is redundant but did anyone else think the multiple occurences of symmetry in this movie were wonderful? And I don't mean the connections to other movies. I mean just in within this one...
-The twins' birth against that of Vader.
-Padme's death against Anakins' kind of death. He lying prone, all in black. She, lying all in white.
-Yoda fighting Sidious while Obi-Wan fights Anakin.
The fight in the senate shows how the Republic will stand or fall based on the outcome. Meanwhile, that macro, political level battle is put against the personal, moral battle on Mustafar.
-Obi-Wan assumes Anakin will die and leaves Mustafar as Sidious assumes Yoday will (basically) and leaves the Senate. Both assumptions have grand consequences in the OT.
-Yoda steels his pupil to do what must be done in facing Anakin just as Sidious steels his to "do what must be done."
-Yoda and, yes, Sidious having concern for their pupils. Yoda grabbing his heart as he feels the Jedi dying and racing back to Coruscant to help. Sidious feeling Anakin in danger and racing to Mustafar to help. I thought I heard legitimate concern in Sidious' voice when ordered the medical help and when he says, "Lord Vader, can you hear me?"

God, I know there's more but there was so much in that movie I can't think of them right now.
Brilliant editing, writing and filmmaking.

 

My point was if you were going to put it in at all, why not in AOTC instead of ROTS, that's all.

 

Speaking of Palpatine/Sidious, who was that poster who said we'd all be sorry and he'd have the last laugh when it was revealed that Palpy WASN'T Sidious? I have a plate of crow to serve him, hot off the grill.

I remember that guy. He said if Palpatine turned out to be Sidious he'd never watch a Star Wars movie again.

 

Hey NorCal - you need to update your sig.

 

Palpy used his scars to gain sympathy with the Senate, so that's another reason to believe he let Mace get the upper hand.

It depends on whether you think that Palpy had this all planned out from the beginning. I like to think that he planned for the best (i.e. killing mace) but is a very quick thinker and uses everything to his advantage. He would have hoped to survive unscarred, but turns his close shave into his advantage. The same way he expected Amidala to sign the treaty in TPM, but when she doesn't and makes it to Coruscant, he uses it to generate even more sympathy.

Ultimately he can't control everything, but just like a great move in chess, Palpy has set up a "combination." If you don't know what a combination is, it is when you corner the other person to the extent that you only give them certain options and all of their options play right into your plan; the best combinations put the other person in checkmate, which is where Yoda and obi-wan find themselves after rots....

MR. P

 

Great analogy. Palpatine is the greatest chess player in the galaxy.

 

You know what? Something just occurred to me...

Maybe Palpatine wasn't lying when he said that Vader killed Padme. Maybe that's what he thought happened. How would he know whether she was alive or dead anyway? Does Palpatine show up on Mustafar before or after Obi leaves with Padme? If it's after, how does he know what happened to her, other than finding out secondhand that she'd died (I'm assuming the births were only known to Obi, Yoda and Bail)?

Also, it kind of makes sense for Palpy to think that Padme died before giving birth, because I get the impression from his added DVD appearance in ESB that he himself has just realized that Luke is Vader's son, and that this is the first knowledge either of them has that Anakin had any offspring. It does make him inifinitely more evil if he's lying just to hurt Vader, so it's kind of "cooler" if it's a lie, but do we know for sure?

 

Well first of all, does he even know she is pregnant? I don't think he does. He knows that Anakin is afraid she will die, but not that it will be childbirth.

Secondly, none of the people who were with Padme when she died would be talking to Palpatine anymore. I would guess Bail Organa is no longer in communication with him after the war. Palpatine probably became more and more isolated over the next 20 years.

So I would think all that Palpatine knows is that Padme died somehow, and not the specifics. The only person to witness the Force Choke were Anakin and Padme and Obi-Wan, so there is no way Palpatine knows about that.

I wonder what the people of Naboo were told?

 

Also, it kind of makes sense for Palpy to think that Padme died before giving birth, because I get the impression from his added DVD appearance in ESB that he himself has just realized that Luke is Vader's son, and that this is the first knowledge either of them has that Anakin had any offspring. It does make him inifinitely more evil if he's lying just to hurt Vader, so it's kind of "cooler" if it's a lie, but do we know for sure?

I like the idea that Palpy lies to vader. It makes it so much harder on vader, makes him more tragic.

ROTS justifies GL's changes to ESB, Vader's reaction "How is this possible?" makes much more sense now because he thought that padme died before she had his kid(s).

Mr. P

 

I never saw an answer to a question I posed last night after the movie. Is there any indication that Obi-wan and Yoda know Anakin/Darth Vader is alive? Obi-wan leaves him for dead by a river of lava. If I missed something, please tell me. Also, if I am right, how do you think Obi-wan or Yoda will find out seeing as they exile themselves?

Also, I think I missed what Padme whispers right before she dies... What was that?

 

I just thought of a reason to believe Palpy DIDN'T let Mace get the upper hand ... How would Palpy know that Anakin would even be there? By the time Anakin arrived, Mace already had Palpy pinned down. I have no problem believing Mace could beat Palpy ... In ESB, Yoda said the dark side is NOT stronger. Any debate about who's greater than whom shouldn't be about combat; after all, Maul beat Qui-Gon, but Qui Gon surely was the greater of the two, especially considering what ROTS revealed abour him.

 

Palpy knew that Anakin would be there because Palpy knows everything when it comes to the Dark Side. He is a master of predicting people's actions. And he may have even sensed Anakin's conflict, and his hurried approach.

 

Mace owned Palpatine, but Palpatine managed to play it to his advantage.

I think for a split-second, Palpy was genuinely afraid of losing everything he worked so hard to build. Until he looked at Anakin and saw a man tormented.

- O_F

 

You know what's so much fun? We're totally going to be arguing about Mace vs Palpatine for like the next 30 years! That's why Star Wars is so much fun, it has the depth that allows you to draw your own conclusions and argue endlessly with your friend over what you think you saw.

I think Palps was toying with him to play out the Anakin situation.

 

Is there any indication that Obi-wan and Yoda know Anakin/Darth Vader is alive?

I didn't see any...but I think it's rather moot, since either way Palpatine won.

Also, I think I missed what Padme whispers right before she dies... What was that?

"There is still good in him."

 

I agree with Obi_Frans.

Palpatine is an unbelievable manipulator and chess player, but I do not think he can see EVERYTHING.

You think he really wanted to get his lightsaber kicked out the window?

And the lightning was actually hurting him there, I don't think he was faking it. I love the side-long glances at Anakin when he's acting all weak and Gollum-like.

Man, just like storm, the more I think about ROTS now, 12 hours after seeing it, the more I like it.

Anyone catch this one: Padme still looked pregnant at her funeral on Naboo. Kudos to Bail, Yoda and Ben for making her still look pregnant.



Anakin's turning and Padme's death of a broken heart are brilliant. "You're breaking my heart, Anakin." Literally.

Not only does the Force Choke occur because Anakin turned to the Dark Side, but Padme gives up hope BECAUSE Anakin turned to the Dark Side. Yet he thought it was the only way to save her.

 

I think the fairy tale death of Padme only adds to the mythic quality of the saga. Having Nute shoot her in the back with a blaster or something would be just plain dumb. Having Anakin actually kill her would have been powerful, but the way it was done was absolutely perfect. And it allows for Palpatine to truly become the most slimy bastard in the galaxy by blaming it falsely on Vader.

I posted last week that I think this movie elevates Lucas to the classis storyteller level of Twain and Shakespeare. Anyone care to comment on that thought now? I think he's taken the whole saga to a deeper and darker level. Every movie now has a heavier weight upon it.

 

My point was if you were going to put it in at all, why not in AOTC instead of ROTS, that's all.

Because it represents his innocence.

In AotC, he himself represents this. In RotS, he becomes a monster. The Japporsnippet reminds us of the boy who gave without any thought of reward.

What's kind of bugging me right now is that Padme allows herself to die.................abandoning the twins. Not too mention abandoning the "good" that she, herself, claims still lingers within Anakin.

Isn't that kind of backwards thinking on her part? Or perhaps she was in such a state that she couldn't even think of anything outside of Anakin, but if that were true - how could she name the twins like that?

"i'm so confused"

- O_F

 

BEST. MOVIE. EVAR.

Well, that's debatable, but I was nonetheless impressed, and with the final piece of the story now in place it has given me further appreciation for the rest of the saga.

ROTS did have its weak moments, most notably some of the earlier exchanges between Ani and Padme, but overall it was a hell of a good flick. The revelations, no matter how painfully obvious some of them were, were presented brilliantly. Especially how Palpatine revealed his true colors to Anakin, and it was painfully obvious how arrogant the Jedi Order had become when they wouldn't accept Anakin's word, which further tightened Palpy's grip on Anakin.

I think Dooku was killed off somewhat too easily, Anakin floored him in about two minutes and then Palpy told him to waste him. Anakin is certainly conflicted, hesitating for a moment, but his trust, respect, and desire to curry the Sith Lord's favor eventually overcomes his initial hesitation and the last facial shot of Dooku shows an expression of betrayal, but he knew that he was going to get screwed sooner rather than later. Sidious wanted a younger, more powerful apprentice and Anakin was quickly becoming the prime candidate, and thus by finishing the job he had essentially sealed the deal.

Grievous was rather disappointing, IMHO. I think he was just there for eye candy; Obi-Wan didn't seem to have too much difficulty taking him down. Other than being Palpy's lackey to help spring a couple of traps, he just wasn't much of a presence.

The Darth Plagis the Wise speech was an interesting bit. At first it seemed that Palpy was telling Anakin that he was simply well-versed in Sith and Jedi lore and knows how both sects tick. Particularly when goes about telling how Plagis was able to manipulate the midichlorians to essentially create life and save people from dying, but in the end wasn't able to save himself because he kept wanting more power. It was the Sith way, the very same thing that gives the Sith his strength is also his downfall. It's not too hard to guess that Sidious was the apprentice who killed Plagis, yet he still seemed to hold his ex-master in fairly high esteem.

Palpatine was very subtle in this film, and when Anakin put two and two together, and threatened to kill him, Palpatine was like "Oh okay, you figured it out, and I wouldn't blame you if you killed me. But I hold the secret to keeping your wife alive and if that's all you care about then I suggest you listen to me." Anakin's love of Padme eventually overcame his urge to kill Palpatine, and was prepared to pay any price to be with her forever, and to restore peace and justice in the galaxy (which was his secondary, more distant goal)

I'm gonna have to say that Mace womped Palpy. It was all Anakin, had he not interfered Palpy would have almost certainly been toast. Force lightning obviously didn't work, and Anakin was offered the choice to keep Mace and the Jedi Order alive, or to keep Palpy alive to save Padme. By this point Mace's distrust and Palpy's accusation of making the Jedi look like the bad guy gave Anakin the green light to distract Mace just long enough for Palpy to catch him off guard and kill him.

I'll also offer another thought. I think George Lucas wanted to show us that Palpatine wasn't all-powerful like he was made out to be, that he had a weakness just like anyone else. And the same goes for Yoda when he was caught off-guard with the force lightning.

There's more to say, but I'll stop there for now. Long story short, I was blown away by the movie, and being spoiler-free made it all the more special. What topped off an already very special evening was that I won a free Lego set in a drawing just prior to the showing.