[ROTS] *Official* ROTS In-Depth Discussion Thread

Everyone thinks Padme died still pregnant.

No one knows she was carrying twins until they're on Polis Massa near the end of the movie.

Good call on Padme's dress, that's brilliant. I need to see this movie again. And again.

Why does everyone think Yoda got worked over by Sidious? It looked like a draw, and don't forget Sidious tried to run away right at the start.

Yoda lost his lightsaber, but had just reflected the lightning of Sidious, and both were clinging to the edge of the Senate pods, with Sidious still cackling. Boy, does that guy like to laugh.


I liked how, while Palpatine was seducing Anakin, and it was a slow and intricate scene, the film would cut to Obi-Wan having this crazy adventure. It would have been easy to get bogged down by TOO much intrigue and seduction, and Obi-Wan and Grievous really made things fun.

 

RE: Padme looking like she died pregnant.

A woman's uterus does not immediately go flat after giving birth. For a few weeks, she will still look pregnant. Maybe not as big, but not totally flat.

Just thought you'd all like to know.

 

About Padme still looking pregnant:

(I haven't gone through all 5 pages, so if it's been addressed, I'm sorry.) They want Padme to look as if she died before giving birth -- it's what Palpy and Vader think and they want to ensure it stays that way.

 

Another thing I loved is somehow Coruscant looked 10x better than in the other films.

Its beauty, particularly at night, really affected me for some reason. Here is the capital of the Galaxy, shining bright. Then we see the Jedi Temple being attacked, and Padme watching the smoke the next morning. This and Order 66 really brought home the Empire to me.

 

This movie made me love Chewy more than I already did. Fighting in this horrible war, becoming enslaved -- he must have been so jaded when he and Han started smuggling. But then joining the rebellion and making sure Han did the right thing...he's just such a much more stronger character to me now.

And scooping up Yoda to carry him? Friggen awesome!

 

I have to agree, Garth. Coruscant looked amazing in this one. Especially in the opening, the shots of the battle occuring in the upper atmosphere of the planet and just out into space surrounding it were awesome enough, but as much as I found myself looking at the battle, I was also looking at the planet below, with it's partial night-side showing. Spectacular.

 

I can't remember who posted on this, but I have to disagree with them about how ROTS now makes the new Emperor/Vader scene in TESB work. I still say that it makes no sense. How could Vader be surprised about Luke's identity in that scene, given that the prologue clearly says that he's "obsessed with finding young Skywalker", and that he earlier tells his subordinates, regarding Hoth, "I'm sure Skywalker is with them". Unless Skywalker is the GFFA version of Smith or Jones, it doesn't work.

Still, given that, it would be interesting to see the scene where Vader confronts the Emperor over this...

VADER: That pilot's name is Luke Skywalker. He's my son. But you said I killed Padme. How is this possible?
EMPEROR: Um...uh...well...um...
VADER: Oh, forget this! I'll catch him and ask him for the answer.

One point for discussion: After seeing ROTS, just who is really responsible for Anakin's downfall? The Jedi? Palpatine? Himself? Someone else?
I'll wait a bit before posting my idea.

 

Plus, the Jedi are just bonehead-stupid when they assign Anakin to Padme in AOTC and to Palpatine in ROTS. They know he's passionate, insolent and immature, so they place him around the people who are most tempting to him??

 

I feel rather gratified that a topic I posted in here around March, re:The One Scene Shot in Tunisa during AOTC for ROTS, really came into play. I mean, yeah, I think many of us felt it was bound to happen this way but man, it was a beautiful scene. They explained it in more detail in the Making of book.

And one a third listening of the ROTS soundtrack, I do take back a lot of what I said about it in one of my posts in the initial reaction thread. This is a tremendous soundtrack to go with a tremendous movie. I still cry at certain moments, I can't help it. It's just so lovely and poignant.

 

Philagape - the only way it makes sense to me is that the Jedi are essentially testing Anakin.

In AOTC, it seems that they really accept that Anakin is the Chosen One and that they can't really do much to destroy the Sith; it's all on Anakin's shoulders. So his training kind of gets accelerated.

Why are they so stupid to assign Anakin to Palpatine? He's made Palpatine's official envoy on the Council, and he's tight with Palpatine. He'd be able to get more information than any other Jedi in the galaxy. I really liked how Anakin was placed in this terribly awkward position, even Obi-Wan admits it isn't right!

Yet the Jedi had almost no choice - how else would they be able to find out if Palpatine was the Sith Lord?

KennethMorgan - the new ESB scene is very interesting. My take is that Vader is "playing" Palpatine, feigning ignorance.

"Whaaaaat? Luke Skywalker is the son of Anakin? How is that possible?"

This coming from a man who says, when he sees the power generator on Hoth "The Rebels are there - and Skywalker is with them!"

His obsession with finding Luke begins before he talks to the Emperor. And clearly, he wouldn't mind taking out the Emperor and becoming #1.

In fact, someone suggested that even when Anakin knelt before Sidious, he was already thinking "I'm more powerful than he is, I just need to find that power to save Padme, then POW! to the moon with Sidious."

 

GARTH_MAUL wrote:

KennethMorgan - the new ESB scene is very interesting. My take is that Vader is "playing" Palpatine, feigning ignorance.

"Whaaaaat? Luke Skywalker is the son of Anakin? How is that possible?"

This coming from a man who says, when he sees the power generator on Hoth "The Rebels are there - and Skywalker is with them!"

His obsession with finding Luke begins before he talks to the Emperor. And clearly, he wouldn't mind taking out the Emperor and becoming #1.

In fact, someone suggested that even when Anakin knelt before Sidious, he was already thinking "I'm more powerful than he is, I just need to find that power to save Padme, then POW! to the moon with Sidious."

That's a possibility. The next question is, did Palpatine know Vader was lying? And did Vader know that Palpatine knew it?
Suddenly, I'm reminded of a line used towards the Master in "Doctor Who": "He'd get dizzy if he tried to walk a straight line."

 

Obi-Wan should have definitely tagged along with Yoda to fight Sidious. Didn't Yoda learn anything from the Dooku fight that you don't face a Sith Lord alone?

That's what I was thinking. Not only might they have been able to defeat him, but there might have been a chance to redeem Anakin, talk some sense into him, once the influence of Palpatine was gone. I mean, what would Anakin have done without Palpatine? He just doesn't seem like he'd have been up to taking control of the Empire himself.

I wonder what could've happened if he ignored the dreams and stayed a Jedi. I would like to see a fan novel/alternate reality dealing with this one. (Aside from the obvious fact that Ep. 4-6 would not happen.)

I agree. There are just so many situations in the story where Anakin could have changed the fate of everyone with one right choice. I, too, have wondered what would have happened if he hadn't fallen. I sense a new challenge in FanFic.

One point for discussion: After seeing ROTS, just who is really responsible for Anakin's downfall? The Jedi? Palpatine? Himself? Someone else?

I see it as a combination of all the factors, all the way back to being born a slave resulting in his need to prove himself. The Jedi didn't help by training someone so old with so much emotional baggage. Anakin contributed in many ways, mainly by going against the Code and allowing himself to form an attachment by falling in love with Padme. Padme contributed, as well, because she also knew it was wrong. Of course, Palpatine is the one who took advantage of all of this. I believe he must have been using the Force to influence Anakin, cloud his mind, increase his fear over Padme... It's even occurred to me that he planted those dreams of Padme dying himself (or allowed Anakin to see that alternate future).

However it happened, I think the story arc in this film was Lucas' finest hour. The incredible emotion, the intricate paradoxes, the poigniant tie-ins to the other films... I left the theatre feeling incredibly drained and shaken (I couldn't even eat my candy during the film ), but that just speaks to how amazingly moving the film was. No other Star Wars film, and very few other films period, have afftected me so much.

Garth: Boy, does that guy like to laugh.

Ha! What did Storm call him? A cackling a-hole?

 

Man that was THE movie!

Stromcloud: The only thing I could think about at the end of the movie was in your review of the premiere... you got it!!!

The CG is so perfect you don´t even realize is there!

Only reason I don´t give it 10/10 is that I would have loved to have another 30 minutes of movie to develop really good the transformation into evil of Anakin. Although it works for me I feel it a little abrupt.

Just a reflection... Even if Palpatine alowed Mace to get him (subject of centuries of discussions) he was much closer than Yoda of defeating him. Maybe Yoda better at strategy and Mace better at fighting?

And finally shocked for how dark it is... I have read only one post about the little jedi. Nobody is going to convince me that there is any doubt in Anakin after that scene... nobody would just simply walk into that room and slaughter some little kids.

Great forum, so proud of feeling part of it!!

 

I'm sorry if this was already mentioned but now Obi-Wan thinking Luke was their only hope in ESB makes sense. He knew about Leia and that she was on Alderaan from the PT. And in Ep IV he knows that planet got blown to bits.


Kiki-Gonn, Obi-wan also knew that Leia's ship had fallen under attack and her mission to bring him to Alderaan had failed. Stands to reason that the Imperials wouldn't have taken her to Alderaan so why would he assume she died on Alderaan? I agree that it is fair for Obi-wan to assume that Leia was perhaps dead, but because of her falling under Imperial attack and not because of Alderaan's destruction. However, once he becomes one with the Force, wouldn't he know that Luke isn't the last hope and "there is another." Another time where CPOV applies maybe?

 

Re: Palpatine/Vader/Luke ....

-- Before ESB, Vader suspected Luke might be his son, once he heard his name, but it seemed illogical to him because he thought Padme died before giving birth. When he asked the Emperor "How is that possible," he wasn't expressing doubt, just asking how it happened.
Vader was obsessed with Luke not only because of his name, but also because he destroyed the Death Star. He obviously was a threat to the Empire.

-- The Emperor always feared Vader would turn on him, since it is the Sith way. Palpatine's strategy to stay alive is to periodically replace his apprentices ... Maul, then Dooku, then Vader, and Luke was intended to be next in line.

 

About Padmé's death and still looking pregnant.

I've read some parts of a script I found on the internet and Yoda actually says that she must still appear to be pregnant.

When Vader discovers in ANH that he has a son, wouldn't he also wonder if Padmé is still alive? He always thought that Padmé died before giving birth to the children and now he learns that she didn't. It would only be natural if he was thinking along those lines. And he would also lose a lot of trust in Sidious, because he has lied to him all these years.

 

Re: How fast Anakin turned.

I think once he helped kill Mace, then, to him, there was no going back. The Jedi obviously would never accept him then, so the only way to go was Sith.

 

When Vader discovers in ANH that he has a son, wouldn't he also wonder if Padmé is still alive?

Padme had a public state funeral -- still looking pregnant -- so the whole galaxy probably knew she was dead.

 

^^^ Of course, I forgot about that.

 

Sorry, it's taken so much time for me to get involved in this (and I really can only do it for the next 4 hours ).

Couple of thoughts...

-About Palpy/Mace, I definitely think it was entirely for Anakin's benefit. Palpy could have offed Mace at any time (or at the very least was not overpowered), but didn't because Anakin had to make that choice for himself. The choice that put him over the edge.

Sidebar to that... I LOVE that it seems Anakin makes his mental choice to save Padme at all costs, while he's alone in the Jedi Council Chamber. That sequence was stunning and perfect. Anakin and Padme seemingly staring out over Coruscant at each other, while their very lives hang in the balance, and they don't yet know it. In such a fast-paced movie, that Lucas took the time to do that, makes it so important and memorable.

-I've always said that Leia's lines about Padme could be explained through the Force, and now we know it's true. But Lucas did an amazing thing by having Padme say "there is still good in him." Luke said he didn't remember his real mother, but that line was his mantra. So, from a certain point of view, he DID remember his real mother- or rather something she said. That thought really gives me chills.

-To go along with the Padme's death being very chivalric romance, her being paraded through Naboo covered in flowers must be another direct visual reference to pre-raphaelite paintings of The Lady of Shalott and Ophelia. Hers is very similar to the story of the The Lady of Shalott too... she was Elaine, the wife of Lancelot. When she found out of the affair he was having with Guinevere she died of a broken heart. King Arthur had her body brought back on a boat down the river Thames, she is pictured covered in flowers. Lucas is a freaking genius.

 

i also do not get how some people don't find the turn of Anakin believable.

it isn't when he cuts off Mace's arm. it is really before that.

he is standing in the Jedi Temple and looking out at the Corus**** night thinking of Padme. He is choosing then between literally staying in the Jedi Order or running off to Palpatine to save the woman he loves.

it makes much more sense upon second viewing.

then, just prior to cutting off Mace's arm, he says "I need him" about Palpatine---and there he has turned and cannot go back.

When he asks himself, "what have I done?"....he knows that he has turned his back on the Jedi way in the hopes of saving Padme. of course, his turn is actually what causes Padme's death, which makes the turn tragic.

 

I'm really bothered that Padme was given nothing important to do in the movie. I found her role to be very sexist (which Star Wars has been much less guilty of then other movies). It almost seems like it was a 1950's portrayal of pregnancy, she spent almost the whole movie in her apartment worrying about Anakin. Couldn't she have done something, even if it wasn't action, like work to defeat Palpatine in the senate and maybe start the rebellion in some way. and dying of a broken heart, how ridiculous. There is no way that a woman of her strength wouldn't have wanted to stay alive to make the galaxy a better place. Obi-Wan, Mace, Yoda, and Chewbacca were all given heroic moments in the movie. Padme was given nothing.

This was a beautiful movie, but this almost ruined it for me.

 

Padme's heroic role was imparting hope to her children. One of the effects on the OT is now every time I see Luke and Leia, I'll see Padme.

And her inactivity is just right for a pregnant woman who's far along with twins.

They did show her in the Senate. She would have helped form the rebellion if Anakin didn't attack her.

Her death was Shakespearean.