[ROTS] *Official* ROTS In-Depth Discussion Thread

Yoda never said he lost, he said he "failed"

And i agree on the "tricks" part, but that still means Palpy isn't a great duelist....since he has to resort to tricks.

- O_F

 

Yes, I agree Palps is probably not the best duelist, but he is at least able to hold his own with a saber against anyone and not get killed. Where he is head and shoulders above ANYONE is non-saber powers. We've never seen a display of Force powers in the entire Saga like his demolition of the Senate. He was like a mad conductor in a symphony of hell. I just don't think anyone in the galaxy can compete with that. He got a little cocky and too gleeful and Yoda was able to use that opportunity to escape.

And he threw Mace what has to be a country mile out that window. Now if you think Mace was winning...Palpatine hadn't shown Mace even an ounce of the power he used against Yoda. I think he probably could have killed all of those Jedi from his little seat in his private office without lifting a finger. I think the entire thing was a carefully crafted trick to complete Anakin's fall.

(uh oh...I came out of ROTS despising Palpatine and his wicked ways...but I think my worship of the Dark Lord might be creeping back up on me...)

 

I would like to respond to people hating/not liking the "NOOOOOO!!!" part? The fact of the matter is, to me, it makes sense and fits Anakin's character. Remember, just because we see him become Vader in ROTS doesn't mean he's exactly the same as he was in ANH and I don't understand why people just expect Anakin to just take it and not be emotional about it. He justified everything he did in his mind for Padme and he loved her so much, possibly too much. Look at all that he chose to do and look at what it brought him. Not everyone takes that kind of realization with quiet anguish. I have done the same thing if I know something bad is happening or against people that I love and care about. I scream and yell and pound my fists. Sure, he's Vader at this point but there's still that spot of little Ani in him.

 

very true marajade he gave up everything, his friends, the Jedi Order to protect Padme, to only discover he killed her. I think it is at this point the name Anakin no longer means anything to him.

 

:::Is there any indication that Obi-wan and Yoda know Anakin/Darth Vader is alive?

I think so.

Right after Sidious tells Vader that he killed Padme, and Vader goes into a rage, we see Yoda... meditating on the brigde of the Tantive IV.

Yoda has always had a connection to Anakin Skywalker, for some reason, and this probably follows through when he becomes Vader, as well.

 

Getting to my view of why Anakin turned, I agree with others that it's a combination of things. From what we've seen of all three prequels, I'd say it's due to:

-Palpatine's manipulation of Anakin's fears and insecurities,
-The way the Jedi Council doesn't seem to trust or even like Anakin, going back to their condecension towards and rejection of him back in TPM. In fact, it seems like the only Jedi who really support Anakin are Qui Gon and Obi-Wan (particularly in ROTS),
-Anakin's fear of losing those close to him, leading him to go to any length to protect them, even the Dark Side,
-Anakin's own pride and arrogance, thinking that he's worthy of far more respect, authority and power than he truly warrants.

I wouldn't count his love for Padme, or his marriage to her, as a fault. Certainly, it's twisted by Palpatine in order to get Anakin to turn. But, he doesn't get much better treatment from the Jedi: Yoda's attitude seems to be, "Let her die. You're both better off without each other. She's just a distraction." While I'm sure Yoda didn't mean to sound callous or even cruel, I'll bet that's what Anakin thought.
In fact, we now see just how wrong the Jedi were when it comes to personal relationships. If Anakin had maintained some contact with his mother, rather than show up just in time for her death, I don't think he would've been so wracked with guilt, leading to his rage. Further, Luke shows Anakin the path to redemption by seeing him as a father in need of aid, not just killing him like Ben and Yoda wanted. If Luke had followed their teachings and disregarded all personal attachments, including family, all would've been lost. From both the PT and OT, we can see that, of course, it's all a matter of balance.

We're a little late folks, so good night!

 

Exactly, Ghost_Jedi. I kinda altered my post so I didn't so confrontational about it. Honestly, when I saw that scene, it just went by so fast because so much was happening during that sequence and because I was crying. He lost everything by what he did and he thought all along it would save his family. I know many aren't sympathetic about Anakin and what he did (i.e the younglings especially) but in his mind, it was always saving his loved ones from dying.

Here's a scene to view differently. In the Death Star battle, when Vader is chasing down Luke and he says, "The Force is strong with this one.." He doesn't get much time to contemplate this because soon after he gets hit and catapulted out. But wow, interesting to me. And I haven't watched ANH again but hmm, this I will look at deeply.

 

It seems like both Sidious and Yoda have the strongest connection to Anakin.

Yoda can sense when Anakin is suffering, or delving into the dark side. Notice how he seemed to know what was in the security recordings before Obi-Wan looked at them. He felt the death of the younglings and probably sensed that Anakin did the deed.

Sidious also sensed when Anakin was in trouble on Mustafar. And in the fight vs Mace you can see him look at the doorway to his office a few times...sensing that Anakin was on the way. He could then change the outcome of the fight to give Mace the upper hand to see if it would turn Anakin. A huge risk, but if you're trying to take over the galaxy it's just another dominoe set to fall over. And Anakin is the one who topples the dominoes.

 

:::How would Palpy know that Anakin would even be there?

Didn't anyone else hear Palpy's V/O, when Ani is waiting it out in the Jedi Council Chamber: "You know, of course, that if they destroy *me*, there is no way you can save *her*"?

I thought that was Palps speaking to Anakin telepathically, not Anakin remembering something Palpatine said earlier... that's Anakin's motivation.

:::He (ben) knew about Leia and that she was on Alderaan from the PT. And in Ep IV he knows that planet got blown to bits.

He also *knew*, I think, that Leia was on the same ship that R2 and 3PO were on when it was boarded. I think Tatooine is a long way from Alderaan, but I could be wrong.

 

Mace owned Palpatine. P was not holding anything back against the Jedi. Sure, he could toss lightning, but he knows lightsabers can block the bolts. No, he went in and took down 3 of them quickly but *couldn't* take down the greatest of the Jedi fighters left on Coruscant. Not without help or a much longer duel.

Now, certainly the Sith Lord was playacting a BIT, but there's a reason his face got all grotesque -- he WAS doing himself permanent damage by blasting Mace. I think he needed the moment to recharge a bit (and to nudge Anakin over the edge).

As for Palp's fight with Yoda, the kids' novel explains that the strength of the Dark Side had grown in the wake of Order 66, and that strengthened Palpatine. Lest we think the Emperor is THAT powerful, though, I'd hazard that Palpatine was been using the Senator pods' own repulsorlift power to aid his own powers to hurl them. Unlike Yoda, the Emperor's been using the things for years and would have little difficulty "driving" them with some Force manipulation. By contrast, Yoda's version was all Force power (and "uphill" too. THE DARK SIDE IS NOT STRONGER).




Obi-Wan's final scene with Vader. Boy, it really stinks to be Obi-Wan here. He knows his duty is to kill Vader, but he just can't bring himself to do it. He LOVES Anakin. Yet his sense of duty and justice prevents him from having mercy to save Anakin from the terrible heat -- or to do him in himself. In the end, the only thing he can bring himself to do is to walk away and hope that Vader -- his best friend in the universe, whose life he's saved a dozen times over -- simply dies there.

And people wonder why Ben Kenobi looks so old in ANH?

 

:::He (ben) knew about Leia and that she was on Alderaan from the PT. And in Ep IV he knows that planet got blown to bits.

He also *knew*, I think, that Leia was on the same ship that R2 and 3PO were on when it was boarded. I think Tatooine is a long way from Alderaan, but I could be wrong.

If you remember Leia's message for Obi-Wan:

"... my ship has come under attack and I'm afraid my mission to bring you to Alderaan has failed."

So he knows she wasn't on Alderaan when it was destroyed. She was, in fact, captured.

 

I watched ANH today, for the first time since I watched ROTS.

R2 has always been the kick-ass droid of the *ENTIRE* Saga.

And I feel sorry for 3PO, he got over his fear of flying (unlike Obi-Wan "flying is for droids" Kenobi), and learned how to fly starships and everything. That is... before he got his memory wiped.

Thankfully, that droid knows how to drive a speeder in ANH; maybe Bail re-programmed 3PO's piloting skills, out of pity for doing the memory wipe?

 

I've only seen it once so far, so bear with me...

I believe Sidious learned the power of manipulation of midichlorians from his master, Darth Plageius(sp?), and created Anakin. I also believe he chose Tatooine for Anakin to be born on because of something Qui-Gon said:
(paraphrasing):"If he had been born in the Republic, he would have been identified early and been trained as a Jedi".
I believe Sidious knew this and so made sure (somehow) Anakin would be born on a planet in the Outer Rim and on a desolate planet like Tatooine. Like Shmi said, "The Republic doesn't exist out here". I also don't think that this makes Anakin half-evil just because a Sith lord used his knowledge to help create him. Without getting into a definition discussion of midi-chlorians, I don't think they're either good or evil, that is up to the person.

On the Mace beating up/Sidious faking it discussion, it's really hard for me to say. Sidious is SO manipulative it's hard to know when he's lying or telling the truth. My intial reaction was that Mace WAS kicking Sid's you-know-what, but then Sid saw Anakin and it seemed like he was just whining to get Anakin feeling like he was helpless. At that point, I began to think that maybe Sid was just playing along the whole time. But now, I think Sid FORESAW the whole situation, BUT, as he said, the Jedi arrived "sooner than expected". I think Sid knew what was going to happen but didn't think it would happen so soon. And he almost got turned into a raisin because of it. As Luke put it, "you're overconfidence is your weakness". It seemed at times that Sid WAS overconfident and his planning would almost backfire on him. I wished Mace would have just busted out with that biblical quote from "Pulp Fiction" right before he turned on his lightsabre!

At first, I was distraught that OB1 didn't try to save Anakin. But I recalled that OB1 knew what he had done to the younglings, besides that he had just tried to force choke Padme and had joined with Sidious. I feel he did what he had to.

There are other scenes I would like to discuss but I'm getting sleepy so I will try later...

 

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence".

This is exemplifies when Yoda and Mace are defending against Palpatine's lightning - they're not attacking him, but defending so strongly that it's affecting Palpatine.

It seems like the Jedi strengths really are defensive in nature, while the Sith offensive. Yet I'm not so sure Palpatine would have killed Yoda...but I'm positive Yoda couldn't kill Palpatine, if that makes any sense.

 

Anakin's turn seems to be a hot topic for debate and I spent some time thinking about it (and discussing it with my basher GF). Basically, I tried to personalize it. I've worked for two bosses in my post-college career: one that I really liked and got along with and was always encouraged by and one that is paranoid, indecisive, and annoying. So in theory, Boss A is like Palpatine and Boss B is like Mace/the council.

If by some twist of fate, both asked me to betray the other and Boss A (Palpatine) was being screwed over in some fashion, I think I would act on their behalf. I might have some reservations, but ultimately, I'd be loyal to the person who was loyal to me, not the one who was always annoying me and holding me back.

Now, magnify that by about 10 million and I understand Anakin's choice much better.

Also, with Anakin making the choice and suddenly being non-stop dark side...I don't even know why this is being argued. As Yoda says, "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." Anakin made a choice, gave in to the dark side, and it consumed him all too easily.

 

He was like a mad conductor in a symphony of hell.

That's got to be one of the coolest similes I've seen.

 

A problem I have with believing that Sidious was completely faking it against Mace and letting himself be put into a potentially fatal position is that it's just too much risk for very little payoff.

What happens if Sidious kills all the Jedi and Anakin doesn't return? He can still continue the pretense that he was attacked by the Jedi in an assassination attempt, I'm sure he could convince Anakin of that as well. And he could also say "Look at the power of the Dark Side! I was able to kill 3 Jedi AND Mace Windu all by myself. Now THAT'S power!" In fact, that would work even if Anakin did turn up as he does in the movie, except he'd arrive to find all the Jedi already dead.

So I feel he can definitely get away with it without Anakin's direct help...so long as he can actually kill those Jedi himself, of course.

As it turns out, Mace is able to get the better of him. So now Sidious has to improvise.

Anakin's aggressive and, quite likely, Mace's fear and pain help to galvanise Sidious back into action.

By the time he's fighting Yoda, many more Jedi have been murdered, and in particular almost all of the most powerful onces. The power of the Dark Side is even stronger and almost invincible, and really it's a credit to Yoda that he's able to put on as good a fight as he does.

In terms of bashing each other about I'd consider it a draw, but Sidious is still plainly having the time of his life while Yoda has to retreat. He knows that his aggression will just fuel Sidious, and is.

 

OK after thinking about it more I'm flip-flopping ... Mace had him

Palpy was losing, but he had just enough left in him that all he needed was a distraction and a little help. If Anakin had never arrived, Mace would have whooped him.

 

Okay here is a question for all of you:
________________________________________________________
What significant role does Star Wars play in your own lives? Or what moments in Star Wars relates to your life?
________________________________________________________

For me I was in Anakin's position. I won't go into the details of my story only specifics. Like Anakin, I was torn between the forces of good and evil. The more I learned about the bad the more it seemed right which was mere corruption from the side of evil. Like Anakin, I was lost. Both sides would tell me to search my feelings, which when you have both sides pursuading you, your mind gets lost. For a short while I chose the bad side but then with the help of family and friends I was able to be redeemed back to the good side.

I think that's what entrigues me the most about Anakin's turn. I'm able to relate to it in more of a way then I've ever been able to relate anything else into my life.

You have this good kid who grows up and learns the power of the good side. When all of a sudden you have these outside influences which are telling you the side of good is the one that is corrupt so the more you hear that, the more you believe it. Without even realizing it you've lost your way and don't know which side is telling you the truth. What makes it even more difficult is that both sides tell you to search your feelings but you can't really do that because you have the knowledge of the good and at the same time some knowledge of the bad. It eats you up inside to have to figure things out on your own. Even though you have people you care about to help you, they really can't do a thing; it's something you have to figure out on your own despite the pain and suffering that goes along with it. In the end you must make a decision and hope that it's the right one. Anakin felt he was making the right choice because he just wanted to make the world safer for his wife and child(ren). He felt that if he could stop people from dying that everything would be okay, that is completely understandable, wanting the best for your family but at the same time there are always risks involved.

 

Mace had him. Palps had infinite amounts of lightning in him, but Mace would've just kept deflecting it. If Anakin hadn't showed up there would be no OT.

And now that I think about it more, I think that scene was the turning point for the entire saga. It led to Anakin becoming Vader directly afterwards, and Palps life was at risk. I now consider Mace the second most important character, since if he had just killed Palpatine in that moment, he could have saved the galaxy.

I do not think Yoda lost even though he said he did. If Yoda had gotten back up the duel would have gone on much longer.

 

Interesting that the 'collector' thing or whatever it is that Luke and Vader have their final battle in TESB on Bespon looks very similar to the lava collectors in ROTS.

 

I really enjoyed the entire Darth Plagiues tease. Very interesting and will lead to much debate over the years!

As for the whole Sid let Mace win bit, I say nonsense. Mace is one of the most powerful Jedi's of all time and I believe he truly had Sids scared to death. If it wasn't for Anakin the Sith would have been destroyed then and there. I am glad Mace at least mutated the jerks face before flying out the window.

Another thing I'd like to add... I'm not sure if Anakin's "goal" was to save Padme and the kids anyway. He became so concsumed and twisted by the darkside (and his arrogance) I think he was more concerned about controlling what was around him. Like Yoda said, you cannot control death. Anakin is just power hungry, he couldn't accept his mother's fate, his wife's or his own.

He's crazy in other words. It was very good that Lucas showed Vader choke his own wife ! Really showed that Anakin didn't care about Padme as a person anymore just that he wanted to be in control.

Such a terribly dark and strange film... hmmm.

 

OK, time to chip in with my thoughts on several issues:

Re: Mace / Palpatine / Anakin ? To me it seems clear that whilst Mace fought well, Palpy was never going to die at that point. His (feigned) pleading and frailty, just before Anakin steps in, appear hollow and contrived, and are IMO intended purely as a catalyst to encourage that intervention. As some others here have already said, from the moment Anakin makes his choice and attacks Mace, Palpatine unleashes his true power.

One or two posters here (sorry, can?t remember who) have also suggested that when Anakin hears Palpatine?s voice prior to racing to his aid, this is in fact telepathic communication on the part of Palps. I also interpreted it that way, rather than assuming it was a flashback, as this specific dialogue is unheard elsewhere in the film... In doing this Palpatine ensures Anakin will arrive in time to intervene.

The scarring that Palpatine suffers is, I believe, a minor inconvenience of little consequence in the greater scheme of his plans. There is also a small part of me that still wonders whether the 'scarred' Palps is actually his true appearance, given the fact that he's clearly been around for some time ? Maybe the force lightening simply removed his physical disguise? Or maybe not.

Re: Darth Plagueis ? Whilst it is slightly ambiguous, my feeling is that either he, or Sidious, did indeed create Anakin by manipulation of The Force. Why else would that dialogue exist, especially as it ties-in beautifully with the whole 'virgin birth' via Midichlorians plot detail of TPM. Most of us wondered what the heck that was all about back in 1999, however this new dialogue would suggest that Anakin's creation was premeditated, and makes better sense of much of the PT story. If true, then I would also suggest that Palps had more than a helping hand in the fate of Anakin's mother...

 

"Mace had him. Palps had infinite amounts of lightning in him, but Mace would've just kept deflecting it. If Anakin hadn't showed up there would be no OT."

True, Mace could have kept deflecting whatever lightning Palpatine sent his way right back at him. So that tells you right there that Palps was in control of the situation. If he really feared for his life he would have simply stopped the lightning. It was a calculated ploy to turn Anakin. Mace had him on the ropes because he wanted to be on the ropes.

 

So it seems that the three biggest things we'll be arguing about in the years to come will be:

1) Mace vs Palps - who won?
2) what did the Prophecy mean?
3) was Anakin born of the Sith?

So thanks to George, not only do we have another great film on our hands, but some meaty topics for endless open ended debate. Perfect!