[ROTS] *Official* ROTS In-Depth Discussion Thread

Jeff 42 posted on 5/21/05 4:25pm

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Mon Mothma used to have a speaking role I believe, but then she was cut (as well as some other female senators that later landed on the editing room floor too). But otherwise I really can't think of any that were in the movie... and Padmé herself didn't really have all that many lines either compared to AOTC & TPM. />/>

Dooku had to be dispatched at some point in the film, and in order for events to progress the war has to end so the Jedi confront Palpatine to give up his powers. So it makes sense to make the opening act about confronting him. Once they get rid of him, which also shows how much more powerful Anakin has become, only Grievous stands in the way of ending the war. He is basically a throw-away bad guy like Darth Maul. He is meant to be scary to some degree, but he is also supposed to be, like Mace says, a coward. After those two are done, the focus is no longer the Clone Wars but the aftermath...and what follows with Palpatine making his move for total domination...

Viking, in regards to your problem with Anakin pledging himself to Palpy....I think it would have been rather unwise for him at that point to go against him. He just witnessed him throwing Mace out the window with his lightening and frankly, with him disarming Mace, that pretty much sealed his apprenticeship with Palpy. And again, Anakin feels he needs Palpy to ensure that Padme will stay alive. Why does he disarm Mace. He says it before he strikes, "I need him!" And frankly, Palpy is the only one who "appreciates" Anakin.

I saw the movie again tonight, so this scene is rather fresh in my head. I think that Mace did have the advantage but one thing to consider, I think Palpy gained his strength from feeding heavily off of the fear within both Jedi.

Everyone says Anakin's turn is so quick. Like it hasn't been happening since TPM.

Plus, in my mind, Anakin is thinking at that point "I need him to save Padme, but he's clearly an evil weirdo. Once I learn the secret from him, off with his head."

Who cares about Sifo-Dyas, as soon as Palps executes Order 66, it's pretty clear he (and Dooku) set up the Clone Army.


In terms of who defeats whom in battle, every different fighter is different. Dooku trained Qui-Gon who trained Obi-Wan who trained Anakin. Dooku can beat Obi-Wan, but can't beat semi-Dark Side Anakin, who is incredibly strong in the Force and a "cunning warrior."

Mace fights Sidious in an enclosed space, where Sidious' great command of the Force isn't as effective. Windu is at least as good with a saber.

Yoda fights Sidious, and Sidious tries to get to open space as soon as possible - the Senate is a much better arena for him because he can use his great Force powers to full affect.

Obi-Wan can defeat Anakin because he's spend the last 13 years with him, and knows him inside and out. Anakin is stronger and more powerful in the Force, but Obi-Wan keeps calm and doesn't make mistakes.


In terms of the whole Darth Plagueis thing, the entire thing is a lie. Sidious doesn't know the power, he tells Anakin right after "I hope together we can discover the power."

And the fact that Lucas was (shudder) originally going to have Sidious tell Anakin he was his father (God, we used to JOKE about this!) doesn't mean jack.

It was a discarded concept. And even if Lucas was considering it, it could STILL be a lie.

Sith lie all the time - tell people what they want to hear.

Personally, going off of the only one time so far that I've seen RotS, I think that Darth Plagueis manipulated the midi-chlorians so that there would be born a exceptionally strong Force user and intended to replace Sidious with Anakin himself, but Sidious figured it out, killed Plagueis, and decided to have Anakin as his own apprentice down the road.

Of course, there is the possibility that it is indeed all a lie. That Sidious uses the concept of midi-chlorian manipulation to entice Anakin as to the kinds of powers available to those on the Dark Side of the Force and also to make Anakin start thinking he's already connected to the Dark Side, why worry too much about continuing to explore it. And it could be that the whole save Padmé bit was to purposefully dangle the carrot in front of Anakin.

One thing that's a saga connector that I just realized is Anakin's dreams about Padmé. He sees her in pain and dying before it happens. The seeing loved ones in pain before it happens is also something that gets Luke into trouble in ESB. So knowing how Anakin reacted to such visions, no wonder Yoda and Obi-Wan get noticably unnerved when Luke leaves Dagobah to go help Han and Leia.

I agree with marajadebean about the Sith pledge scene. Also, Anakin had just helped Palpatine kill a Jedi. What chances did he have from that point to not be thrown out of the Jedi order? There was no turning back and he desperately wanted to keep Padmé alive, so naturally, he did what he did. As GARTH says, he still wants to kill Palpatine, but not until he has learned how to save Padmé's life.



Ian McDiarmid rules
/LM

Good point about the dreams reflection, Vacant. It makes Yoda even more pleading to have Luke not turn.

This is what I truly applaud Lucas for doing. He makes us all think about it, not have it so clear as day and pounded into our heads. What I love about the PT is how gray it is in terms of lines, boundaries. He makes you question your own personal boundaries....would you do the same thing if you were in Anakin's shoes, etc.?

Just one thing about the whole Mace/Palpy and who is the "winner," it's not really as relevant to me personally when you consider hearing Palpy's voice as Anakin is in the Council room. Is it Anakin recalling it, or Palpy seducing him to ensure that one of the most powerful Jedi will be killed, in sense, triggering Order 66. On a basic level, everyone in that scene eventually loses (though for Palpy it takes another 3 films but still...and the fact he becomes horribly disfigured). I hope that makes sense. I'm up later than I should....

The Order 66 scene onwards...were very...how can I describe them...emotional, sad...chilling.

And the fact that Lucas was (shudder) originally going to have Sidious tell Anakin he was his father (God, we used to JOKE about this!) doesn't mean jack. It was a discarded concept. And even if Lucas was considering it, it could STILL be a lie.

GARTH, from the evidence (I previously quoted) in 'The Making Of' book, there's clearly no doubt that Lucus was more than "considering" this, as it was in the rough script only weeks before principle photography began. The final dialogue still addresses the same issue, albeit from a slightly less direct angle.

Watching the film for the first time, (unspoiled, and not having read the rough treatment at that point), it still seemed clear to me what was being implied. It also makes perfect sense given (almost) everything that has transpired during episodes 1 and 2.

Nevertheless, I'm sure this debate will go on, and on...

hearing Palpy's voice as Anakin is in the Council room. Is it Anakin recalling it, or Palpy seducing him to ensure that one of the most powerful Jedi will be killed, in sense, triggering Order 66

The first time I saw ROTS, I thought he was recalling it. The second time, however, I started wondering if Palpatine had actually said that line in the previous scene. I don't think he did, which means that it must be Palpatine communicating with Anakin telepathically.
I love how this movie breaks Star Wars conventions by letting us witness dreams and visions and hear telepathic messages!



Qui-Gon Jinn is a powerful Jedi
/LM

The first time I saw ROTS, I thought he was recalling it. The second time, however, I started wondering if Palpatine had actually said that line in the previous scene. I don't think he did, which means that it must be Palpatine communicating with Anakin telepathically.

I'm pretty sure he didn't say it previously, and therefore like you, I interpreted the scene as a telepathic communication from Palps to Anakin.

Palpatine didn't say that line in the scene we saw, but that doesn't mean that he couldn't have said it to Anakin later on. However, I still believe in the telepathic thing more. We know there is a special connection between them (Palpy sensing Vader is in danger) and if Anakin really hears Palpy it would have a greater impact on him.

I still believe in the telepathic thing more. We know there is a special connection between them (Palpy sensing Vader is in danger) and if Anakin really hears Palpy it would have a greater impact on him.

Absolutely. Also, if Luke can hear Obi-Wan easily in ANH, (remembering that he's barely begun his force training at that point), then I have no trouble accepting that Anakin, a fully-fledged Jedi, could hear Palpatine in ROTS.

...Luke can hear Obi-Wan easily in ANH, (remembering that he's barely begun his force training at that point)....

Also Leia can hear Luke at the end of ESB.

I thought it could have been something Palpatine said to Anakin after their scene in the corridor...I had the feeling it didn't end right as the scene finished, but they continued to talk for a while (since that's what Palpatine was looking for - a chance to talk Anakin around).

But I guess it could be a telepathic message.

I don't think it was telepathic, but I guess it's because I just don't like that idea. I think it's something Palps said earlier to him and Ani is just recalling it. I'm not saying it's not possible, I just don't like the idea. Either way it still works.

I just assumed that it was something Palpatine said off screen.

I figured that it just implied that Anakin and Palpatine had a lot more meetings similar to the opera scene and the confrontation in his office. I mean those two scenes are really the only times when Palpatine and Anakin are together and talking about things related to the Force; taken on their own his fall is sort of fast if you don't consider that they probably hang out all the time discussing politics and the Jedi- remember that is his job, working on the Jedi Council for "the republic" (coughthe emperorcough). So this is just implying that there were more scenes like the opera, etc. that just weren't filmed.

Mr. P

I think it was telepathy. I'll go one farther and say that I think Palps was completely manipulating Anakin's subconscious by placing the nightmaress in his head.

Palp's obvioulsy knows about Anakin's fear for Padme's life and based on Anakin's surprised reaction he has never told Palp's anything about his dreams. So obviously there is mindreading, telepathy, legilamancy or something at play here.

I think it was telepathy. I'll go one farther and say that I think Palps was completely manipulating Anakin's subconscious by placing the nightmaress in his head.

I totally agree, and I'll go even further by suggesting that Palps was also behind the death of Anakin's mother... This is alluded to in the rough draft, and ties-in with the concept of Palpatine being behind Anakin's creation.

I agree that it was telepathy although Mace had him. It was a ploy by Palps when he realized he was being beaten.

One thing that becomes more and more clear to me...Anakin may have been the Chosen One, endowed with great powers of the Force...but the guy is DUMB. He's working with average level intelligence (at best) and has serious emotional problems. He has no ability to think through anything, he pretty much just bashes his way through problems. He is in fact SO stupid that he never even realizes that Sidious was playing him in ROTS. Up until the very end of his life in ROTJ he still thinks these 'new powers' exist and that the Dark Side can save people from dying. He tries to convince Luke of that very thing.

Really, the guy is probably one of the least intelligent people in the Star Wars universe and ultimately gets played by Sidious because of that. Listen to the tone in Sidious' voice...it's condescending and overly complimentary. Whenever Sidious is talking to him, it sounds like he is talking to a 12 year old boy. Seducing Anakin was like taking candy from a baby.

Even at the end, on the second Death Star...he treats Vader like a child. Vader is nothing more than a small child when it comes to dealing with Palpatine. It's actually pretty feeble. He's really nothing more than a powerful bully and henchman. He acts mature and commanding when dealing with his officers, but Palpatine reduces him to a quivering little boy.

storm, yes this film makes Anakin out to be very stupid. He may have the ablity to build droids, but he isn't a smart guy. Completely manipulated. It begs the question: What use is power if you aren't intelligent enough to use it?

-Seldon

I don't think he was dumb, he was being manipulated is whole life. Getting pulled every which way, that can make a young adult pretty confused.

In his defense, he has been fighting a war for three years and that is exhausing. On top of that his mother has died, he is forced to keep his marriage a secret, his wife will have a baby that could ruin their lives, and he is torn between his two best friends (Palpatine and Obi-Wan.) Under that kind of pressure, anyone could crack (despite amount of intelligence.)

-Seldon