[ROTS] *Official* ROTS Initial Reaction Thread

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Mace Windy, May 17, 2005.

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  1. Shmi02 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2002
    star 1
    I thought it was fantastic-- definitely a few flaws-- but overall I am so happy with it-- and I can't wait to see it again! There was so much to take in that I will need to see it again before I can start dissecting it. I thought everyone in it did a great job-- especially Ian McDiarmid-- how scary-- and R2-D2--how adorable was he?

    I wish Lucas would have had a few more longer scenes, but since he had that great scene with Palpatine and Anakin in the theater I think I can forigve him somewhat. I think it gives so much more depth to the movie when the actors are really given a chance to act and not lost in quick cuts or special effects.
  2. Worst_Jedi_Ever Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2004
    star 1
    And the first words out of suited Vader's mouth were about Padme, and that Sidious convinced him that he killed her (which from a certain POV he did) broke my heart.

    [sarcasm]Ah, Rebelscum77, the circle is complete. When first I joined this forum, I was but the learner, now I am the master.[/sarcasm]

    :p

    I don't know if you remember, but one of my first forays into this group was the suggestion that in order to make Anakin's turn believable, he'd have to do something really horrible like kill Padme. You very vehemently disagreed that he could directly kill her, and argued so compellingly that you even convinced me that Lucas couldn't possibly go that low. I even said at the time, agreeing with you, that "I don't think that the public at large is really ready to have their hero do something so heinous". And of course, you were right that he didn't kill her directly. But as far as Lucas needing Ani to do something heinous to sell his turn, the fact that he murders children and then assaults his pregnant wife, leading her to lose her will to live, is considerably worse than anything most of us thought we'd see.

    I remember some of the people involved in that discussion say that such a terrible act would ruin the films for them, make Anakin irredeemable, and even make SW impossible to enjoy. In fact, a poster (I don't know if he/she is around anymore, but I won't name them, because I'm not trying to challenge anyone or call anyone out) even said said "I would throw out all my DVDs and video tapes (OT and PT) if he killed her."

    And all joking aside, I don't mean this post to be any kind of I-told-you-so; on the contrary, I have always been impressed with Amanda's (may I call you Amanda?) posts, and have been very interested to hear you and others weigh in on how Ani's brutality affected the way they view him. There are probably a lot of things we were "sure" we would or wouldn't see, and those expectations are sure to figure into our reactions.

    All the above discussion--fascinating to read now--took place in the "Official Fate of Padme Thread", but I don't know how to link to it...
  3. Bucky-Katt Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Hi Everyone. I've read the first page and a half of this thread, but I have not had time to finish it, but I wanted to post some thoughts.

    I left the theater speehless. I hated Anakin by the end of this film, but there along side that was my feeling so sorry for him. He was so close so many times to doing the right thing. It fits so perfectly with Luke's feeling of the good in Anakin in RotJ.

    I saw this movie almost 12 hours ago, and I am still not through digesting it. The more I think on it, the more I relaize how great it was.

    Going into the movie theater, I think the crowd was expecting to cheer when Vader (in the suit) came on screen the first time. But by time it happened, what was there to cheer about. the silence I think was more fitting.

    Mr. Lucas hit the ball out of the park with this one.

    I look foward to discussing this film with all of you.

    Brian
  4. TurnedJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 2
    stormcloud: Hey TurnedJedi - Luke doesn't remember Dagobah in TESB...he remembers the powerful presence of Yoda...

    I think that helps to explain the whole Leia memory thing. Luke clearly has some memories of Yoda, who was 5 feet away when he was born. Leia for some reason can remember her mother. I think in both cases they don't have actual memories, more a sense in the Force.


    I've never seen it from that angle, but...maybe? However, the Leia thing bothers me more. It could have been done in a way to simply explain it. What we got in the film doesn't contradict anything, but still...

    By the way, did anyone call Obi-Wan after the birth of the twins? They better not have! :p

    I too was expecting more from Mon Mothma and the budding Rebellion. But as others have said, I'll enjoy them on the DVD :D.
  5. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    I just saw someone in the spoiler forum saying that in the book, Luke has his eyes closed to shield them from the light, while Leia has her eyes open and fixed on Padme. That would explain it, I think. Will have to watch closely next time.
  6. NorCalBirdz Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2004
    star 4
    Worst_Jedi_Ever may need to change his avatar. Those two other Jedi who went to arrest Palpatine made Coleman Trebor look like a cunning warrior.
  7. Worst_Jedi_Ever Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2004
    star 1
    I'm going to stand by Coleman. Considering that he was killed by a mere human bounty hunter and Mace's companions (Sasee Tiin (sp?), Kit Fisto and...who was the last one?) were taken out by the Dark Lord of the Sith (who they had assumed was just a frail old man), I think my guy is still the worst!

    And for anyone who might know--did we not see Shaak Ti in this flick AT ALL? She was a fave of mine from the CW cartoons. I'm guessing either she appeared and I missed her, or she will be one of a handful of Jedi who were purposely left alive as EU fodder.
  8. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    Maybe she'll be the star of the TV show. Although I really hope the show doesn't have Jedi in it. I like the idea of Yoda and Obi-Wan being the only ones able to survive. Much more dark and tragic.
  9. beedubew Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 2
    While I like the idea of just the two of them surviving, I don't think it will last. There are 18 years of time to fill. It may also be a little far fetched that Yoda and Obiwan are the only two survivors. I mean, the two of them did change the Code signal warning against returning to the Jedi Temple.
  10. NiktosRule Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2001
    star 4
    I think the only time you see Shaak Ti is during when of the council meetings when everyone appears as a hologram. The one where Yoda is at Kashyyk.

    Where were Barriss Offee and Bultar Swan? Both are listed in the databank but I couldn't find either.
  11. TheUnknownSyn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2003
    star 1
    Anyone notice Anakin's PSP? :D
  12. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    I was very pleased.

    But Darth Vader reminded me of Calculon. You all know what I'm talking about:

    "NOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
  13. spaceace27 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2004
    star 1
    But he did kill Padme, now didn't he?












    Ok....maybe not physically, but from a certain point of view (metaphorically), yes. I'm too hot off the presses to give any decent criticism, but maybe the leg losing could have been a little more tense than "I'm going to do something stupid and hope you're dumber than I think you are". Either way, her death was necessary for Vader's life...and he made it crystal clear. The duels were intense, I did not see Mace's death happening that way...I was floored that that was the turning point. And what an intense way to start the movie...that's all for now.
  14. marajadebean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2005
    star 2
    Jabba_wocky,I didn't even think about that scene being that way but very funny pop reference indeed.

    To add more comments, I would have loved to have seen Qui-Gon in some way, even for a bit. But then I think about it, and the focus is on the twins being A New Hope. I think my complaints were mostly music wise. Don't get me wrong, I love John Williams but I was hoping for something more original music. Granted, I haven't listened to the whole soundtrack yet and I know why the cues come into play but all the OT has different and wonderful end credits. It makes me wonder why the heck did George not put in the one for AOTC! Why George, why! Or this one...it was such a Williams' gem and it tied all of the Anakin themes together....

    But this movie is still Oh My GOD with me. :D
  15. spaceace27 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2004
    star 1
    And by the way, Obi-Wan doesn't leave Anakin for dead. He leaves Darth Vader for dead. Anakin doesn't kill the children, Vader does (I DID NOT see that one coming, and I was terrified). Anakin ceases to exist totally when he kills Mace (or helps). I still have to decide about repeated viewings on this one. I have to think about it, it's really intense and there's a lot there. Should I read the book? Who's writing it?
  16. Lexi Host of Quick-Games

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 2002
    star 4
    Watching the movie a second time, it felt more like Obi-Wan knew that Anakin was going to die, but he couldn't bear to see that, and that's why he left.

  17. RurouniKJS Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2005
    star 2
    I posted the original of the following "essay" some weeks ago, on other sites, before I joined TFN. I've since updated it now that I've seen the film. What I said before will be in italics (and cut for length).


    REASONS WHY "SITH" WILL BE IS THE BEST STAR WARS FILM SINCE "EMPIRE" or "A NEW HOPE"


    It's the whole point of the Prequels.
    Ever since we learned of Luke's true parentage, we've wanted to know the story behind Darth Vader's rise and the fall of the Republic. Eps. I and II do offer some context. But ultimately, Jar Jar, Podracing, midichloridians, Anakin's mom, Naboo, Qui-Gon Jinn, double-bladed sabers, the Fetts, et. al. are completely disposable. The only elements we really needed were Darth Sidious/Palpatine, the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship, the Clone Wars and a girl for Anakin to father his twins through. Which means one could discard 90% of ep. I and at least 50% of Ep. 2 without losing any necessary dramatic elements for the REAL story -- the one Lucas intends to tell in "Sith".

    VERDICT: The point is well-made. More of substance happens in Ep. 3 than in the first two combined. And yet, the context of those films -- Anakin's mother, Qui-Gon, the buttheaded Jedi Council and even the hated midichloridians and Jar Jar -- all these elements, mentioned in passing, help make this one work. Were they a necessary evil? Maybe, maybe not. But you'll never view them the same now.

    Advance fan buzz is positive.
    I haven't delved too deeply for fear of major spoilers -- and I've encountered plenty anyway -- but fans who've read the novelization are basically saying there's no way even Lucas can screw this one up.

    VERDICT: The buzz was right. "Sith" did almost everything right where Clones and Menace failed.

    Like "Empire", it flips the formula.
    Generally, a Star Wars film starts relatively small, then builds up to the huge armed conflict. In "Empire", the army clash came in the 2nd act, with the 5th and final act being an intensely personal confrontation between the hero and villain. "Sith" looks to do things similarly, with the opening act being big action and the final act being small-scale.

    VERDICT: Interestingly, there is almost no emphasis on the big-picture war stuff as in the other SW films. All the other fighting exists only as backdrop to the personal stories and battles of the lead characters (unlike Clones, which focused a bit too much on the big battles while failing to give them the story time needed to make them satisfactory). So in this sense, "Sith" indeed flips the formula, to a greater degree than ever, and to great success.

    John Williams.
    Say what you will about the overall quality of "Menace" or "Clones", but Williams did fine scores for both. He's not as good as he was in "Empire" or "Star Wars" for my money, but even B-grade Williams is still the master. Let's hope Lucas actually uses new music for the whole film this time.

    VERDICT: Still a disappointing amount of old music was retracked. But the new music is very good. In particular, the new "Battle of the Heroes" theme, while slightly underwhelming as a standalone piece, gains great resonance when heard in context of the visuals. A grand achievement.

    Acting looks better.
    Trailers are never a great gauge of a film's acting quality, but the few deliveries we hear in "Sith"'s trailers are so much better than anything I can recall from pretty much all of "Menace" or "Clones" that I can't help but be hopeful that either Lucas, his actors, or both have given real effort to performance this time.

    VERDICT: The woodeness seen in Clones and Menace remains to a degree in Christiansen and Portman, but both come off well when the melodrama really steps up. Across the board, actors seem more in tune with their performances. And best of all, the lamest dialogue isn't nearly as bad as the worst of the previous two films.


    Emperor Palpatine has a lightsaber.
    Just as the until-then-weaponless Yoda's duel scene was one of the only
  18. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    "Lucas is Anakin Skywalker. He was the Chosen One in his first two films, fell in the 3rd one, was our villain in the 4th and 5th and redeems himself in the 6th and final. But without dying!"

    Perfectly stated. I've been trying to wrap my head around the Lucas=Anakin analogy for a week or two, that sums it up entirely.
  19. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Worst_Jedi, I'd have to go back and see what I said exactly, but while I always believed that Anakin wouldn't physically kill Padme, I have always been open to the possibility that George is cleverer than I, and could make things work. ;)

    That being said, Anakin doesn't physically kill her, he chokes her but I doubt with the intention of actually killing her. In a way, that act shows just how much Obi-Wan meant to him- he momentarily forgets about his wife and focuses on his "betrayal"- but I digress. I stand by what I said earlier about him actually taking her life in cold blood- he doesn't, and could never.

    What Anakin "does" to her is more tragic and horrible than I expected, perhaps I wasn't thinking Lucas would go so psychological with him. His choice is 10x more tragic this way, than having Palpatine or anyone else kill her. Lucas literally takes every reason Anakin had to turn, and throws it completely back in his face.


    I just saw it again today, and let me tell you, it's even better the second time. Because I knew what was going to happen, it was like watching a train speed right at me. I seriously cried like a little girl, where I didn't the first time- I was just too stunned. It's so incredibly painful to watch, but I morbidly want to go again, like right now (of course, I can't for 2 weeks because I'll be vacationing overseas... dammit, bad timing).

  20. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    I think that Yoda bringing up Qui-Gon at the end maybe feels a little tacked on because they don't really discuss it during the film, but I like it.

    Not only does it contradict good ol' Sidious' teachings about the Sith have access to power to sustain life, it leaves the question of disappearing Jedi/Ghost Jedi open for the OT.

    So when we see Obi-Wan disappear in ANH and come back as a Ghost Jedi in ESB, it will still have a nice effect.

    Did Qui-Gon discover some ability? I prefer to think of it as the Will of the Force using Qui-Gon as a "medium" to communicate with Yoda and Obi-Wan; it's hard to tell how Qui-Gon learned the ability by himself.
  21. Jedi_Jen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2003
    star 1
    Just saw it and -WOW- I am blown away. My initial reaction is I must go see it again. It surpassed my expectations. I am so glad I was spoiler free. I was on the edge of my seat the entire movie. It was extremely sad, but I actually feel good- I am so happy about how great it was. I don't know if that makes any sense! Another cup of Kool-aid, please.
  22. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    Darth Plageuis. Truth? Lie? Anakin's true origin?

    Truth. Plageis was Sidious's master. Labyrinth of Evil mentions him. Just look at the satisfied grin on Palpatine's face when he says how ironic it is that his apprentice killed him in his sleep.

    And yes - I do believe Plageis made Anakin. Maybe that was what the prophecy meant all along.
  23. Worst_Jedi_Ever Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2004
    star 1
    RebelScum77 wrote: Worst_Jedi, I'd have to go back and see what I said exactly, but while I always believed that Anakin wouldn't physically kill Padme, I have always been open to the possibility that George is cleverer than I, and could make things work.

    That being said, Anakin doesn't physically kill her, he chokes her but I doubt with the intention of actually killing her. In a way, that act shows just how much Obi-Wan meant to him- he momentarily forgets about his wife and focuses on his "betrayal"- but I digress. I stand by what I said earlier about him actually taking her life in cold blood- he doesn't, and could never.


    Yeah, you were right then, are you're right now. Just couldn't resist reinvigorating what was a lively debate a while ago. ;)

    Later in your post, you mention that what Ani DOES do is actually worse--and I agree. A year and a half ago, I think the consensus was that Ani couldn't kill Padme because that was going too far and Lucas would never have our hero ("Tragic" or not) do something that horrible. And boy, were we wrong about that.

    Some have said that his killing of the younglings was more "implied" and not very graphic, but there are FOUR "implications"--we see him ignite his saber, we see the hologram, and there are two separate lines of dialogue that explicitly state his actions--as though Lucas wanted to make absolutely sure that we know exactly what happened, even thought it took place offscreen. And then, just to cap it off, he later chokes his pregnant wife!! Onscreen! When I first brought up the idea of Ani killing Padme, the idea was that he'd kill her after she's given birth (obviously, I guess). For him to assault her while she was still carrying his child(ren), AFTER he already murdered children, is much darker than the act that we all thought was too dark to ever be part of this film.

    I just saw it again today, and let me tell you, it's even better the second time. Because I knew what was going to happen, it was like watching a train speed right at me. I seriously cried like a little girl, where I didn't the first time- I was just too stunned. It's so incredibly painful to watch, but I morbidly want to go again, like right now.

    I also had my second viewing last night, and I feel exactly the same way. About halfway thru the midnight show (around the invocation of Order 66, I guess), I actually thought to myself , "y'know, this is awesome, but it's so upsetting that I don't know when I'll want to see it again". That lasted all of 12 or 14 hours, and I saw it again last night, and discovered that it's not only great--it's a VERY enjoyable film. I was afraid that a lot of my initial reaction was driven by shock of the atrocities I'd seen, but I loved it again the second time and even found it--gasp--fun! Oddly enough, I also wasn't moved to tears until the second viewing, despite the fact that that viewing was a more fun experience overall.

    Seeing ROTS a second time, already knowing what was coming, didn't take away from the experience; it allowed me to slow down and really enjoy it, and I'm extremely happy about that. :)
  24. kingthlayer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2003
    star 4
    My initial reaction was shock. I was stunned by the end of the film, and I loved almost the entire thing. What I didn't like was Grievous but he was small in the scheme of things and out of the way before long, so it didn't matter.

    I wrote a review right after seeing it, with all of my initial thoughts. Here it is:

    Episode III Revenge of the Sith
    "The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities that some consider to be unnatural.."

    "Is it possible to learn this power?"

    "Not from a Jedi.."

    Mr. Lucas, you've done it.

    Star Wars Episode III is a phenomenal end to a prequel trilogy that many have felt to be lackluster (though not me). I find it hard to believe that any prequel trilogy bashers will be able to reasonably bash this film without nitpicking. Revenge of the Sith is a sinister, tragic two and a half hour rise of the dark side.

    The beginning of the film starts with a bang, as the camera slowly creeps over a Star Destroyer and then veers down to an amazing shot depicting all hell raging above the planet Coruscant. It continues to get better, as Anakin Skywalker and Obi-wan Kenobi, who have become legends in the Clone Wars, infiltrate the Separatist ship that belongs to General Grievous. The film manages to maintain a strange comic style that stays around for a majority of the first half. There are quite a few laughs as the two Jedi and R2-D2 (who is at his best this time around) search for Count Dooku ("You're welcome" had me laughing for a while), and though at times it is a bit tacky, it's fun, light and necessary in preparation for the darkness that is coming.

    After the battle the heroes return to Coruscant, to find more problems. The Jedi have become increasingly suspicious of Palpatine, who is still in office and slowly increasing his power. Anakin and Padme's marriage is still a secret and their love has become tested by war and politics. It isn't helped by Anakin's dreams of Padme dying while giving birth. Anakin is also strained the Jedi Council is having him spy on Palpatine, and in turn Palpatine having him spy on the Jedi. His relationship with the Chancellor becomes closer and slowly Palpatine introduces Anakin to the dark side, telling Anakin that it will help him save Padme from death. And here the tragedy begins to unfold, as the second half of this film contains more emotion and powerhouse action than any Star Wars film to date.

    All plot aside, Anakin's turning is very convicing and well done. Lucas makes us care about the character by having him portrayed differently than in Attack of the Clones. This time Anakin is mature and patient, and respectful of his old master, Obi-wan. They appear to be good friends. Anakin is still just as unsure of himself though, which makes it easier for Palpatine to manipulate him. Hayden has improved on his acting, I felt that his lines were delivered almost perfectly. Ian McDiarmid also shines as the villainous Palpatine, his voice is riddled with evil and his eyes glow with the dark side. It was a spectacular performance. Ewan Macgregor was great, at times he resembled Alec Guiness and did well at copying his mannerisms. The character has become one of my favorites, and he couldn't have been casted more perfectly for the prequels.

    All the characters manage to stir up some emotion here and I felt all of it, especially Mace Windu's last stand. The duel between Anakin and Obi-wan was spectacular and also heart breaking. The relationship between Anakin and Padme was still somewhat clunky (love dialogue) but for the most part it was much better than Attack of the Clones.

    The visuals are stunning, of course. Yoda looks realistic and I felt his lightsaber skirmish with Sidious was extremely well done. The planets are very impressive, Coruscant looks better than ever, Kashyyk is vibrant and Mustafar burns with hellfire. Everything looks fantastic. I know I'm gushing here, but the movie really was THAT GOOD. The only problem lies with General Grievous, who looks and sounds amazing but is cheesy and his stupid cought ruins any chance
  25. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    The initial reaction is very much a punch to the gut. It's bleak and depressing, making the film on its own tough to take, but making the film as part of the Saga absolutely crucially important. It takes a few hours for you to start feeling, well, better about things enough to want and go and see it again. It's a shock, a very big shock, and you need time to take that on board and accept it.

    I have never seen a SW movie look like that. Darkness blanketing everything, bright scenes and sunlight barely glimpsed. Everything seeming downbeat and dark. Unusual close-ups and camera angles, everything moving so fast. The speed of the lightsabre combat was ferocious, but when Anakin and Obi-Wan (and Yoda and Sidious, natch) started swinging away it was blinding.

    Even for a SW movie, the SFX were phenomenal. Such imagination...you really got the feeling that everyone involved were trying their hardest as this was the last SW film.

    I'm still trying to take it all in. Let's do some random images, shall we?

    That sequence with Anakin and Padme staring out of their windows, almost across the miles of Coruscant to each other...from her apartment across to the Jedi Temple. Wow.

    Anakin, limbless, bursting into flames...Obi-Wan almost in tears and utterly without hope as his yells at him...Ki-Adi whirling around through the snow as the clone troopers raise their guns...Mace screaming in pain and being blasted through the window...Yoda's claws scratching at the edge of the senate chair as he tries to keep himself from a nasty fall...

    And here's the kicker...Anakin murders people, murders Jedi, young and old, kills his friends, and is responsible for the death of the woman he loved. And yet you still desperately feel bad for the guy and want him to save the day at the last moment.

    As it turns out, that day is over two decades in coming. Locked in his own tomb. Pieces of his Jedi uniform burnt onto his skin. Brr.
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