[ROTS] ROTS effect on the Rest of the Saga

I am probably more grateful now for the OT than I ever have been. You need it after the mindblowing tragedy that the PT has become.

I agree.

Regardless of Lucas's mindstate in the 70's, i really wonder if this had anything to do with him not starting of Star Wars with Anakins tale.

I can bear to be thrown the usual "It wasn't about Anakin"'s in saying this, but i genuinely feel that this was a factor for him when he split his epic story up for his major movie - the fact that Anakins tale wasn't a happy one.

Had we not had the OT, i wonder if we ever would have stood for an ending like this - one that destroys all of our heroes and takes 20 years for "a new hope" to arise.

- O_F

 

Here's a question: How does Obi-Wan find out Anakin survived? Surely he thought he was dead when he left Mustafar. I'm assuming he heard that Vader was still around on the Holonews at some point

With this in mind, though, we now know that Obi-Wan never saw Anakin in the suit prior to ANH. I was watching ANH earlier today and noticed there was this look of shock on Obi-Wan's face when he sees Anakin for the first time in the suit. You can tell Obi almost pities Anakin for becoming such a monstrosity.

On the topic of this scene, too; if you were watching the saga for the first time, eps 1-6, you'd probably wonder what the heck was going on when Obi Wan just disappears after Vader swings his lightsaber through him. But then when Luke hears Obi Wan's voice, you'd figure out that Obi Wan has indeed spent his time on Tatooine learning some tricks from Qui Gon.

My only problem now is R2 and Yoda's meeting on Dagobah...I would think that they would know each other and not fight over a lamp so much. Also, I was hoping ROTS might explain better why Dagobah seems so "familiar" to Luke, like its "something out of a dream."

The familiar thing about Dagobah was Yoda. Afterall, Yoda was present at Luke's birth.

I think the biggest thing is that Artoo knows everything all along! Endless implications there.

Indeed, in ANH:

- R2 knows exactly where he's going on Tatooine

- R2 can take down two Super Battle Droids but is no match for a couple of Jawas

- Obi Wan's "Hello there... come here my little friend, don't be afraid" line in ANH; he must suspect it is his old friend.

- "I can't seem to remember ever owning a droid": of course not, he was your buddy!

and in ESB:

- "I'm not going to change my mind about this": R2 trying to convince Luke not to find Yoda. I guess he's scared that Luke is going to follow the same path as his father.

- "That's ok, I like to keep it on manual control for a while": I'm assuming R2 wanted control of the X-Wing to steer it away from Dagobah for the reason mentioned above. Cheeky bugger.

- R2 peeking through the window into Yoda's hut, obviously worried about the path Luke is about to take.

 

"the younglings scene was too much.
there's no redemtion when youre killing kids"

Mymuthaz:

I realize your post was a little while ago, but I thought I would ask you this question. Why is it that the slaying of the Tusken Raider women and children do not make Anakin irredeemable, but the killing of younglings do?

I know that we all felt much more impacted by the death of the Younglings, but we HAVE already seen that Anakin is capable of such brutle acts. Both groups of children were innocent.

Something to think about.

 

Just watching TESB, scene where Luke is hurrying off to Bespin to try to save Han and Leia. Obi-Wan and Yoda are begging and pleading with him not to go. So much deeper now in context with ROTS. It's exactly the mistake his father made. Rushing off to save loved ones due to a dark vision of the future. I can imagine the pain and regret and guilt in Yoda and Obi-Wan's minds at that moment.

"Luke, I don't want to lose you to the Emperor the way I lost Vader."

The expressions on Yoda's face are so sad. What a great job they did with that puppet. So much better than the one in TPM.

 

OK, I finished TESB and the thought was permeating my head throughout the second half of the film..."Oh no, it's going to happen all over again. I don't think I can take it if another Skywalker falls victim to his weaknesses and his compassion for his loved ones." Even though I knew what was coming, I felt that knot starting to form in my stomach that we've have to live through another ROTS situation.

This film is darker and more ominous in light of ROTS.

 

I watched ANH yesterday, and I thought it was so cool how R2 just naturally falls back into the role he played in ROTS. We saw him assisting Obi-Wan and Anakin with their mission on Grievous' Command Ship, and he does much the same for Luke, Leia and Han on the Death Star.

I be he was thinking "Give *me* that blasted CommLink!!" lol

 

Now that I've seen ROTS, I look at everything before Mace's death scene (including AOTC and TPM) as necessary backstory. After that scene everything breaks loose and the galaxy is in dark times right up until Vader kills Sidious in ROTJ.

 

Finished the OT, and jeeze...I am SO glad Hayden is in the end now. I just feel that Qui-Gon should be there, too. Surely they could fit him in there somewhere

I know, he learned of this power after his death, but perhaps with the combined help of the two others...hm.

I guess Luke would be going "Who the hell is that?" but I find the 'good-bye' should serve us as well and not just Luke. Especially after the lacking conclusion to the force ghost topic in ROTS.

ANH and ESB were fine. I imagine the 1-6 newcomers will be pretty excited by meeting Luke & Leia in their first scenes...perhaps enough to get over the slow start of ANH. In ROTJ I found myself skipping the Ewok sequences. I didn't mind them earlier but now they're annoying as hell.

 

I am watching ROTJ now and I am going to TRY to watch the Ewok scenes though they drive me up a wall.

 

Trust me Storm, after watching Luke starting to fall in the same manner as Anakin did you'll appreciate the occasional Ewok

Really though, the Yoda/Ben/Vader/Palpatine scenes with Luke are incredible to me now in RotJ - i always like them, but with the context of RotS...woah. The final scene of young Anakin appearing beside Yoda & Ben is breathtaking, whereas before it was "nice", or so to say.

I used to think TPM & RotJ were really weak good movies (if that makes sense), now they're great imo.

I never thought i'd say this, but ANH is now my least favorite Star Wars movie.

- O_F

 

Well I always had felt that ROTJ had my favorite parts of the saga in it, but nothing will change my mind about the Ewoks. They are a blasphemy. Exceeded only by the blasphemy of Jar-Jar and the Gungans. I'll never be able to watch either of those two races of creatures without getting frustrated.

And it is a shame, too, because ROTJ has the same emotional power of ROTS, but it is only brought down by stupid Ewoks. Pandering. Imagine if ROTS had some long storyline involving Gungans? It would have been a disaster.

Actually...one of the overall flaws of the OT as compared to the PT is that it gets off track too much from the main story. Just about everything in the PT is about moving the two main stories (Anakin's rise, the formation of the Empire) forward. In the OT, you have side stories which really don't matter. For example, the Jabba storyline has zero to do with the two main storylines - the Rebellion and Luke/Vader. And I don't watch the Jabba stuff very often. The only part of the PT that gets off-track is the podrace.

I definitely appreciate that Lucas tried to move the PT storyline directly forward without too many non-essential storylines.

 

They do indeed. But what I took out the end of ROTS was that Owen had big plans, he was looking to the horizon to contemplate a better place for his wife. Only for Obi-Wan to turn up with a child, thus all his dreams are shattered. Which explains why he's a grumpy old so and so in ANH.

Revenge though is indeed the pivotal moment in the saga. The second poster in this thread gave a humour line of "it binds the films together". Well, it does! It contains the beating heart of the saga and makes the other movies reasonate far louder than they ever have done.

 

TheUnknownSyn, it would be interesting to note that during the new shots made for ROTJ with Hayden, George joked about putting in Mace and Qui-Gon. I believe he did that. I think that would be awesome! And actually, George could essentially do it because Leia comes to get Luke to celebrate and then we see Anakin, Yoda and Obi there....oh wait, would people like that? I would be game. If not Mace, at least Qui-Gon.

 

Nah, I would not like that at all. They're secondary characters. Qui-Gon I could understand, but definitely not Mace. He symbolized everything that was wrong with the old Jedi Order.

 

Well, again, I think that was a tongue-in-cheek joke by George, Storm. The more I think about it, I would like to see Qui-Gon, because he was the one who knew how to keep himself "immortal" through/with the Force. That's a huge deal and it becomes a huge deal when Obi does this in the OT. I know, deleted scene on DVD. I guess in this case, I would like to see it shown rather than just told. But that's just me.

 

Whew...that's a relief. When George says he's going to do some ridiculous, you never can tell. He's certainly redeemed himself in my eyes with this film, but he still has the power (and appetite) to do great wrongs.

 

Storm, I didn't mean to freak you out there, bud. Sorry about that. Honest, George was kidding. He does know when certain things would really all drive us in a tizzy. Oh gosh, now I see where I got you freaked out! I mean to he say that I believed he did SAY that and I forgot the say. Someone smack me!

I'm kind of curious how you feel about ROTS now that you have seen the OT. I hope I get to do it this week but I have no idea.

 

not Mace. He symbolized everything that was wrong with the old Jedi Order.

If Anakin were in Lukes shoes at the end of RotJ (looking on at the spirits), i feel Mace should've stood there...

...but he didn't, it's Luke. So i don't really see the need to have either Mace or Qui-Gon in there

- O_F

 

I don't think Qui-Gon should be a ghost at the end (no matter how much I like him). He doesn't know Luke and Luke doesn't know him. There's no point in having him there.

 

Now that the saga is complete, I think it is obvious to me why the tension in ROTS is much more like the tension in the OT - the fate of the galaxy is at stake. In TPM and the first 2/3 of AOTC, the stakes just aren't very high. The invasion of Naboo - big deal. The assasination attempts on Padme - big deal. It isn't until the Clone Wars break out that it truly becomes 'Star WARS' again.

That's not to say I don't like TPM and AOTC, just that until the battle on Geonosis, things are very introductory and there is no tension about the fate of the galaxy.

 

Well I agree that adding anyone to the end of Jedi would be a very bad idea.

Let me pose this question. Qui-Jonn learned how to retain himself after death and Yoda and Obi-Wan learn it as well. Are we to assume that Anakin/Vader learns this on his own and does not tell the Emperor? Or is there something I am missing?

 

Sooth, I always kind of assumed that Yoda and Obi helped Anakin retain his Force "immortality." Having Hayden in there now just makes so much more sense.

But I do understand why some of you don't want to see any other Jedis at the end of ROTJ. Probably once I see the deleted scene on the DVD, I will probably be just fine with the way ROTJ is now.

 

OK, I finished ROTJ, so my thoughts on the saga as a whole are complete. Regarding ROTJ...it continues to be the most tragically flawed film in the saga. It is second in importance only to ROTS, but it just blows the whole serious tone of the film with all the Ewok crap. It should have been handled with a very serious tone like ROTS. Also, I definitely think it has the worst acting (Ford and Fisher) of any film in the saga.

That being said...the Throne Room duel has always been my favorite part of the saga, and it probably still is. It did feel different this time. Is Vader redeemed after the horrible things he did in ROTS? No, I don't think so anymore. Also, was he a changed man, or merely doing what he's been doing all along - killing anyone and anything who threatens his family. His redemption now is more sad than ever, but also bittersweet because I don't feel he can be redeemed. Plus it hit me harder this time - Anakin is dead. The hero/villain of the PT is dead.

Regarding the space battle - I still think it is better than ROTS. Clearly ROTS has better visuals, but the tension and action in ROTJ are better - as they should be.

Lastly, I think it is interesting that ROTJ has that 'prequel' feel to it - moments of greatness, but dragged down by pandering cuteness and some horribly delivered acting.

So now I think what I am left with is:

THE GREAT FILMS: ANH, TESB, ROTS
THE GOOD (BUT TRAGICALLY FLAWED) FILMS: TPM, AOTC, ROTJ

 

StormCloud, I forgot who said it, but someone suggested that the "holy trilogy" is now 3-4-5.

I agree.

 

Meh. I never hated the Ewoks scenes as much as anyone else. ROTJ could have been better, but Jabba's palace, the last trip to Dagobah, and the space battle and Throne Room scenes are all awesome.