Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Garth Maul, May 25, 2005.
Palps was on the ground getting hit with his own force lightning, Mace is the man.
As my boyfriend and I watched the movie for the second time in a cinema, something sprung into my mind and it's been bugging me ever since:
When Mace gets thrown out of the window... I think I hear Anakin FORCE-PUSH him out!
I asked my bf about it and he said it seems probable, but he didn't catch it. Also I read somewhere before the premiere (I think the Wikipedia SW section or something), that Anakin cuts off Mace's hand AND pushes him out.
Or am I just seeing things?
You're DEFINETLY just hearing things. If Anakin force pushed him out, Lucas whoulda show him do it
If you heard any force push, it was from Sidious.
It should be noted that Shatterpoints and Vaapad are all EU and have absolutely no meaning for this scene
Infact, Nick Gillard disdains the seven forms of combat because he wasn't consulted about them.
The one thing I really dislike about the novelization is that it spends this ENTIRE scene, the most critical scene at that point in the story, describing Vaapad. It really pissed me off.
Why not have the scene from Anakin's POV? Doesn't that make a lot more sense.
Nonetheless, I agree Garth, I really like Mace in this film. I love that "Get the F outta here" stare he gives Anakin when he starts through a tantrum about not being made a Master. And the venom between he and Sidious in their fight is great.
This entire scene is kind of two-edged for me.
The positive stuff:
-The short dialogue before the battle begins. It builds up the tension fast, and in a really effective way.
-The freaky scream/wail Palpatine lets out when spinning towards the Jedi.
-The fighting style here I didn't like at first. But I kinda like it now, it's sort of beautiful to watch in a way. And it makes it different from the other fights. The tension here is also unbelievable, I don't know why. Perhaps it's just the emotional weight of the scene, it truly is a turning point in the saga.
-The way Palpatine squirms away from Mace after being disarmed.
-The feeling of complete shock after Palps have blasted Mace out the window.
The negative stuff:
-Really poor editing in some parts I think. I like the idea of the three Jedi being taken out early, but it just doesn't look good. One Jedi seems fascinated by the art on the wall while Palpatine stabs him, and the other two just drops.
It just doesn't give the sense that Palpatine is as good as he is supposed to be (does that make sense?). It just makes the Jedi look clumsy.
And also, the closeups of Ian just don't work for me. I think this is a weak link in Ian's otherwise superb acting throughout the film.
I think it would've been good to not quite have as many closeups, and have it be a little more similar to the Dooku fight which I think flowed really well.
-"No... no... no!" Just looks odd, and not scary at all in my opinion.
-Lack of music when Palpatine blasts Mace, and Mace catches it with his lightsaber. The tension sort of disappears here I think.
-Editing again. The cuts to Anakin just standing there/shielding his eyes just feel awkward I think.
-Even though the scene is about Anakin choosing side, I think Lucas makes it a bit to obvious. "He's a traitor!" "No, he's the traitor!" "You must choose!"
-Poor acting from Samuel L Jackson while bouncing back the lightning on Palpatine. But I think he is excellent just seconds after when Anakin cuts of his hand.
All in all I think it could've been done better, but like I said... The tension and just emotional weight of the scene kind of makes it a great scene anyways.
I also love everything after Mace gets killed... Love the way Palpatine grunts as his voice "transforms", and I love his kind of over-acted evilness.
It can make me laugh, and I didn't like that at first. But then I remember how me and my friends used to imitate the "cheesiness" of the Emperors scenes from ROTJ, and I realized it's not very different.
Wow that's an excellent analyization and I agree with most of it. Jackson's acting was weak when he said "No HE'S the traitor arrrrggghhh" as he was forcing back the lightning. The "No...no...no!" felt like something Smeagol would say.
But it is a good scene and I love it. It's the first time and only time we got to see purple versus red.
Yeah, I hear ya QG83. Lucas obviously added the other jedi with Mace to make Palpatine seem unstoppable at the start of the fight. But it really takes away from the achievement of offing three COUNCIL MEMBERS when the way it was done is so pathetic.
If you read the book, how that part of the fight is portrayed is loads and loads better.
Yeah, it doesn't bug me too much, but Agen Kolar and Saesee Tinn sure go down like punks.
I think Jackson's acting is fine throughtout the entire scene.
I find it funny you think "he is the traitor!" is too obvious, when many people think the choice is made too quickly and comes out of nowhere.
Yeah, that is interesting Garth. Oddly enough, I used to feel that Anakin's turn was sudden, until I thought about it and realized he had no choice of going back after he cut off Mace's hand.
It's funny how it's turned around for me.
I just think I would've liked it to be more like the ROTJ scene (where Palps tortures Luke). No dialouge made it flow more natural in my opinion.
But then, I am no filmmaker. Perhaps this scene needed it to be spelled out. I do like Palps line "I have the power to save the one you love!" because I feel we needed to be reminded again and again that Anakin is doing it all for Padme.
It's an odd scene for me, because there are lots of things I can nitpick, but it's also one of my favourite scenes in the saga.
Hmmm, interesting Garth, that you don't mind the way Agen Kolar and Saesee Tinn went out. I love this scene (although it's so hard to watch) but hate the aparent lack of skill on Kolar and Tinn's parts. It actually really bugs me.
Think how cool a huge 4 on 1 saber battle would have been. If you thought QG and ObiWan on DM was cool, think how this might have played out.
Of course they had to die, I just don't like the way they died with their mouths hanging open. It seems they died as easily as a padawan would have.
On the other hand... Kit Fisto went out easily too, but at least he went down fighting.
Oh, and as for Shatterpoints and Vaapad, none of it was mentioned in the films. Therefore, I don't think it's even relevant.
Yes, I agree that the choreography and camera work of the office duel didn't work very well. The editing needed to be quicker, it seemed like Palpatine was standing there by himself while the Jedi stood around like henchmen in a bad karate movie waiting for their turns to get killed.
The editing needed to be quicker, it seemed like Palpatine was standing there by himself while the Jedi stood around like henchmen in a bad karate movie waiting for their turns to get killed.
I agree. Imo, it appeared that Mace's buddies went out like "punks." They didn't appear to put up much of a fight. I mean, they knew they should've been ready when Palpatine ignited his saber, but, maybe they were caught off guard. It seems Mace was the only one who was pissed off enough to not let the Chancellor get the upper hand.
Another thought about this scene. If Anakin thought Mace was actually going to execute Palpatine and then help the rest of the Jedi take over the Senate (as he later told Padme), don't you think he saw the three dead Jedi on the ground when he walked into Palpatine's chamber? If he did, he would have to know that Mace didn't kill them.
Also, do you think Anakin meant to cut off Mace's hand? "IT'S NOT THE JEDI WAY...I NEED HIM!" Maybe he was trying to block Mace's attack on Palpatine. I know he had personal issues with Mace, especially after he was told to, "Take a SEAT, young Skywalker." It just that, maybe he was trying to stop Mace and didn't expect Palpatine to light him up as evidenced by, "WHAT HAVE I DONE?"
Actually, I don't think Anakin would have seen the dead Jedi. It's hard to tell the exact layout of the office, but it looks to me like the private office leads directly to the little mural room where Anakin first found out Palps is a Sith Lord, and then a sharp right turn into the main office. If I'm right, then Anakin would not have seen the dead Jedi, did not see Palpatine's lightsaber, and it really and truly may have appeared to him that Mace was attacking an unarmed man.
Anakin seems to jog straight in. There's nothing like the novel scene where he sees Fisto's head sitting neatly on Palpatine's desk.
This could be another way in which the film differs from the book...another good way, in my opinion.
If Anakin had not stepped in, Palpy was done for.
I agree the editing on the first two Jedi deaths wasn't great but that's pretty minor out of the entire office duel (from their arrival to Mace's end).
Sidious vs. Mace was good. I certainly had no problems with the acting or dialouge. Then, the aftermath is sweet. I love Ian's Exorcist moment ("No, no...").