CT Rumor: Disney to Release Unaltered Old Trilogy on BR

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by DarthMane2, May 16, 2014.

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  1. lovelikewinter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2014
    star 1

    You have let the lies of Lucas blind you. He purposely used subpar masters from 1993 so his precious "Special Editions" looked better, even with the horrible color correction and crushed blacks. There are prints of the original version, even though Emperor George tried his best to round them up and deny that they ever existed.

    There exists the 1997 restoration of the original negative, with the SE abominations grafted on. The neg was separated and cleaned up, so that can serve as the basis for the OOT to be released. The original elements were kept, there are interpositives and a dye-transfer Technicolor print of Star Wars to use to get the colors 1977 authentic.

    You may be happy with the Blu-Rays (based on the 2004 "restoration", but they went back to the neg with a whole new scan at 4k. The effects for the SEs were only done at 2K. This is the first step to restoring the OOT and undoing the vandalization caused by Lucas and his toadies. Disney wants the original cuts out there, because that is what the people want, it is only the Lucas apologists and PT fanboys that care what he has to say anymore.

    The future belongs to the ST, which will be based on the OOT. Disney even hired a writer who blatantly blasted the PT and the SEs, showing they don't care. We have the new generation and the SE/PT kids will be nothing but a blip best forgotten.
  2. Thegoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 1
    Disney absolutely has the right to release the OUT. They bought the rights to the entire franchise for $4 billion. Fox has distribution rights, but Disney has complete control over the films' contents.

    I can't speak for certain about the prints, though I'm sure there are plenty floating around, if only in the hands of private collectors. Personally, I doubt that Lucasfilm truly destroyed them. Even if they did, the majority of the original film is available in great quality on the '97 negative, and there are surely unaltered prints that could be drawn from for the rest.
  3. Blur Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 1999
    star 4
    Re: the rumored release of the Unaltered OT (1977, 1980, 1983) on Blu-ray - in Blu-ray quality, anamorphic widescreen prints.....I'l believe it when I see it.
    Last edited by Blur, Jul 18, 2014
  4. Qui-Riv-Brid Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2013
    star 3
    No they aren't. I specifically looked at this Lightsaber "problem" that people go on about but what they unsurprisingly fail to comment on is that the Lightsabers in the original versions are nowhere near perfect as they remember them to be.

    The reason why you see such a fluctuation on Vader's saber especially in the carbon freeze chamber is because it was always fluctuating. I don't even know if it's more apparent in the SE or people were just looking harder for it.

    So the question as always is do people really want what they remember or the way it actually was?

    I think any future release of an "unaltered" OT is unlikely. I think there will be all kinds of alterations but ones that will fall into the restoration category. This of course is actually what a lot of the SE's changes are. They are restorations ie using the original elements recomposed and inserted in to replace the damaged sections.

    Yet they can easily be shown on an IMAX screen and no one is going to know the difference from film except some "techophiles" who claim they can. Of course they also claim they can tell "real" from "fake" and then declare the PT as fake and then revulse in horror when they are told about all the real models, miniatures and sets they declared as fake.

    Most films made on film won't look near as good as the PT in IMAX. I saw Wizard of OZ in IMAX but it's just not as good no matter the 8K scan. No matter the film it's about far more than that it's about the filmstock, the photography, the cameras etc etc.

    I wonder how good a straight from the O-NEG transfer of Star Wars IV would actually look without work? All of the flaws that they were able to get away with because it wasn't going to show up on a larger screen can be seen on a small screen if you don't cover them up. They got better at this as they went along so IV would look the least of these.

    You can scan something as high as you want that doesn't mean you are going to actually get anymore actual detail out of the image. Their doesn't even seem to be any real agreement between people in the industry on this.

    David Mullen ASC
    http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=37475
    Now one thing to keep in mind that the level of pixel resolution is not necessarily the same thing as the level of detail, sharpness, measurable resolution. Just because you should scan 35mm negative at 4K doesn't mean it always resolves 4K worth of detail. I'd say that a lot of people are getting more like 3K out of it. However, you'll find some people saying that particularly sharp fine-grained 35mm photography, like for anamorphic, should be scanned at 6K. This is somewhat controversial though.

    At the opposite end of the argument are those who feel that there's no reason to scan 35mm at more than 2K since 35mm print projection can barely achieve even that level of resolution. I tend to disagree with that since you want to start out with more resolution if possible to survive the degradation of copying, printing, etc. However, if we had no print projection anymore, only 2K projection, I suppose it would argue more for just doing all the work in 2K, other than the problem that you may be creating a digital master that does not contain the maximum possible level of detail for future digital presentation formats that may be 4K.
    Last edited by Qui-Riv-Brid, Jul 19, 2014
  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Both. That's the one constant I've noticed is that they want it both. The way they remember it and the way it was.
  6. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    All I want is 4K O-NEG scans, no mattter what version that ultimately leads to.
  7. Rowboatcop Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2011
    star 1
    Mod edit: No personal attacks
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Jul 20, 2014
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
  9. Thegoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 1
    I was referring to the pink/green saber issues, as most of the "fix the lightsabers complaints" refer to the weird colors. I never had a problem with the original, fluctuating lightsabers. For a sword made out of energy, it made them look very powerful, like leaping flames, as they tried to focus an enormous amount of energy into a small, moveable space. There were some moments, particularly in ANH, where the effects show through a bit, but for the most part I never thought they needed much fixing.
    Last edited by Thegoat, Jul 19, 2014
    lovelikewinter likes this.
  10. Rowboatcop Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2011
    star 1
    I want to see an example of somebody who: 1. wants to buy a bluray of the theatrical cut and 2. that same person also wants it altered to be the "way they remember it", whatever that means.
    Because even though everybody has cited Blade Runner and Close Encounters as the gold standard (both accomplished 7 or 8 years ago at this point), with Star Wars it gets characterized as some supernaturally impossible goal.
  11. Cedric T Sealion Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2014
    Agreed. I resent the way in which the apologists try to make out that anyone in favour of the theatrical cuts being released is some sort of hypocrite or delusional nutter.
    TX-20 and darklordoftech like this.
  12. lovelikewinter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2014
    star 1
    Some people see the restoration in the same way as alteration. Weak minded fools. "Altered the way they remember it" must be code for returned to its original state with proper restoration and colors and the original stereo mix that has been missing from home video for years.

    That's what people want. The apologists can argue about how the 2006 DVDs didn't sell that well or how people don't care about the original cuts, but to me it seems bluster to cover up their own fears.

    Disney doesn't give a rat's ass about Lucas' "vision." They want money, a return on investment, and the goodwill of the fans in preparation for Episode 7. The proper release of the OOT will sell, with the true fans, with the cinephiles, with anyone sick of the CGI overindulgence. They can create new prints and show the Trilogy in the theater again, from a wide release to one night showings in historical cinemas around the world. Turn Star Wars into the grand dame of Sci-Fi instead of the painted whore that is the Special Edition.
    darklordoftech likes this.
  13. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    I've always felt that the prequels would be less hated if the OOT was available.
  14. sirota554 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 29, 2013
    Didn't mean to say the prequels wont look good at their current just meant they cannot be scanned at 4k being digital that's not necessarily a good or bad thing its just a question of feasibility you cant enhance a digital images resolution without stretching distortion and pixelation i don't think i said the prequels are only 1080 in a negative light. Now this may not be noticeable or even a problem but i feel it will become more apparent in the future with 4k televisions becoming more affordable.
  15. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    A lot of the hate isn't due to that. The hate will remain regardless of that.

    This has nothing to do with fears or anything. I could care less what people want or what Disney will do. I'm making a point that there are people that want things as they were. We all agree that people want the THX versions of the OT, but even then, some people want things looking as it did. That means no fixing effects, but looking as it did in the presentation released in 1994.
  16. Qui-Riv-Brid Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2013
    star 3
    Well I'm in favour of the theatrical cuts being released but all the fine details of how to do it are a lot more complex. These are commercial companies with people who make decisions. There are decisions that have to be made.

    That is a question though. Is it even possible? The O-NEG was in a terrible state 20 years ago. What does it look like now?Far worse one would think. Much of it still exists in some form in the SE version but then there were all the replacement sections created from the original elements. They were so badly damaged then so were they even kept? If so were they scanned a few years later when scanning was much more cost effective? If so at that time did they do it at 2K?

    If not what would a 4K scan of it now get you? I don't know. Anything you do get out of it would need extensive digital restoration anyway so at what point is it no longer really original? It's way funny of course that the eventual savior of the films to be seen in their original form will be the same digital tools and techniques created by Lucas through ILM.

    From the little I've learned about this whole thing the best way to go might be the separation masters which it seems the SE used for some scenes.Save Star Wars is somewhat hilarious for their rather OTT bias against Lucas but there is some good information there:

    http://savestarwars.com/filmpreservation.html#ch3

    separation masters. Separation masters are three strips of fine-grain black and white (silver halide) film that are printed on dyes that will never fade. Each black and white strip records a spectrum of colour: red, green and blue. When the three black and white strips are re-combined on dyed layers, the result will be a perfect colour re-construction. Separation masters are usually made from the negative itself. As they age they may shrink and swell at different rates, which means they will mis-align, but digital tools have made this no big deal.

    I wonder if 4K actually means anything other than to make people feel good? If 35mm film doesn't even resolve at 4K but maybe 3K or less and then by the time you project it becomes lesser still then it's just a meaningless selling point with no real application. 4K sounds better than 2K even if the difference is just theoretical but doesn't effect the real world interface.

    http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=37475

    David Mullen ASC

    So even though it was a good idea to scan "Lawrence of Arabia" at 8K, it doesn't mean it is an 8K image in terms of measurable detail on the original 65mm negative. In fact, it's probably more in the 4K-to-6K realm. If modern 35mm stocks seem to resolve a bit more than 3K, maybe 3.5K, in detail, then a negative twice as wide would resolve a bit more than 6K, maybe 7K (assuming the 65mm lens was a sharp as the one used on the 35mm camera.) And "Lawrence" was shot on 50 year old color negative and optics technology. And even if the 65mm negative was resolving near 6K quality, a 70mm print would then be more like 4K on the big screen.
    Last edited by Qui-Riv-Brid, Jul 20, 2014
  17. RogueZero Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2009
    star 1
    I swear, the whole lightsaber thing in the original trilogy never bothered me. Yeah, in ANH particularly Luke, Vader Obi-Wan's lightsabers look a little washed out and the jump cuts are a little off, but I didn't care back in the '80s when I was growing up with these movies and I don't care now. They look like lightsabers.
  18. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Disney releases a McQuarrie edition of the Saga.
  19. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4

    I know that's a joke, but I'd genuinely be more excited about some animated version of early drafts with McQuarrie artwork (like the recent DH comics series) than the upcoming Eps VII-IX. The ideal would be a sort of documentary going through drafts #1-4, explaining and analysing the changes, illustrated by animated McQuarrie artwork, then going into the various stages of cutting the finished film, so including heaps of deleted scenes and alternate takes.

    Sorry, that went a bit off-topic, but how awesome would it be...?
  20. IG_2000 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2008
    star 4

    This is Disney.
  21. Cedric T Sealion Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2014

    I have no idea what you mean.
  22. lovelikewinter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2014
    star 1

    He doesn't know what he is talking about. The challenges of releasing the OOT on Blu-Ray have been discussed and solutions given.
  23. Qui-Riv-Brid Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2013
    star 3
    I already said I don't know what I'm talking about. No one here really does. That is the point. There are people who think they know but they are only guessing.

    The only discussions I've seen are from fans who don't have all the real information and their "solutions" are theories.

    The truth is only the relative handful of hardcore fans really care about this and so they are the ones who really want it. The rest don't even think about it.

    Even then these supposed hard core of people who hate the "CG" of the SE's apparently don't even realize that much of the SE's are restorations and that CG sandcrawler they despise so much?

    [IMG]

    Lorne Peterson touches up the Sandcrawler model for a new view of it in the Special Edition release of A New Hope
  24. Cedric T Sealion Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2014

    Lol. This is what I'm on about. The Lucas apologists and their tiresome strawmen. Or in this case strawcrawler.

    The challenges in restoring the original cut of Star Wars are no greater than those of restoring the umpteen versions of Blade Runner. It's just a matter of Disney getting the cheque book out (then recouping every penny on the first day of release). I suggest you go back and read savestarwars.com again.

    Hell, even old TV shows get suberb restoration in a lot of cases. Just look at the miracles achieved by the Doctor Who Restoration Team on a shoe string budget.
    Last edited by Cedric T Sealion, Jul 21, 2014
  25. Qui-Riv-Brid Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2013
    star 3
    ROFL!

    I don't care about strawmen, tinmen or lionmen.

    I'm asking questions which some people are pretending to know the answer to. I don't pretend I know. I'm asking questions.

    The truth is that I'm come across people who pretend they "know the answers" and they don't. They know that the PT is ALL CG. Wrong. They know all the CG changes for the SE were CG. Wrong. They know how to restore the OT. Well they are wrong over and over again so this time they are right?

    Why? Based on what?

    BR is a walk in the park compared to SW. The cheque book is irrelevant. It's about knowledge and applying it. What is the best way to do it for them?

    I've read Save Star Wars and this is why I'm asking these questions. I don't think they have all the answers. They can do a version which SSW could either praise or rip to shreds depending exactly how it's done.

    Everything could be visually good looking to us but then they'll point out the 17 mistakes that were made and then complain that they just used the existing BD sound mix.
    Last edited by Qui-Riv-Brid, Jul 21, 2014
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