Saberfighting -- Force or skill?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Mastadge, Oct 2, 2001.

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  1. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
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    Often when saberfighting is described in the books, it in large part involves the fighters using the force to guide them. When training, Obi-Wan fights blindfolded and then later puts a blast-helmet over Luke's eyes. It seems that the Force is an invaluable aid to saberfighting. And yet in TotJ: Redemption, a forceless Ulic fights a fully-trained Jedi for several minutes without taking a scratch...
  2. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    There have been experts at swordfighting that didn't require the force.
  3. Asyr Handor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1999
    star 4
    Yes, but I'm sure the best is a perfect balance of force immersion and skills!!!
  4. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    It's both.

    Say you have an exceptional swordsman and a powerful Jedi, yet novice swordsman.

    Most likely, the two would be equally matched. It all depends on how in tune he is at controlling the flow of the Force, sensing the flow of the Force and altering the flow of the Force. If the Jedi is highly skilled at sensing the flow, then most likely he will be able to get many hits in and block incoming hits - even against a well-skilled opponent. If a Jedi is highly skilled at controlling the flow of the Force, then he may not hit as much and may take hits, but he will be able to supercharge those hits which connect.

    I can go into a rather dry analysis of the SWRPG, but the simple answer is that its both.
  5. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Anbd I'll also point out that Ulic may not be a good case to use. While he may have been cut off from the Force, the Force may not have decided to cut itself off from him.

    He could most likely whup anyone he fought - but then he'd also have divine inspiration/dramatic purpose on his side.
  6. Mavrick889 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 1999
    star 4
    Kyle Katarn was but a novice force user in the Dark Forces novels (at least in the beginning) but he was a very skilled fencer in the Academy, and therefor a very skilled lightsaber wielder. He didn't need the Force to be good.
  7. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    Now, Orman Tagge was good, and a master swordfighter. But I don't think he used the force. He had to cheat to try to win some of his battles(turning off the lights, having vader project an image of himself over him, etc), as well, he talked about how His lightsaber was an imitation of real jedi lightsabers that he had built for him so he could pratice lightsaber dueling.
  8. Knight1192 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2000
    star 6
    Genghis beat me to the both thing. I do have to agree with him on Ulic being a bad example, but for a different reason. Prior to being cut off from using the Force, Ulic had trained for years in fighting with a lightsaber. He would seem to have been fairly close to mastering the skills need to do so. Perhaps he did indeed master them. Therefore, he wouldn't need to always call on the Force to fight with a lightsaber. To deflect blaster bolts or better anticapte an opponents moves he might need it. But a good swordsman should also learn to read an opponent which would allow them to know when their going to attack.
  9. Arabwel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2001
    star 2
    Look at the people on Earth! See the actors in Highlander? Take, for a sample, Methos, and drop him into a lightsaber fight with, say, Kyle Katarn. Guess who'd wipe the floor with the other?

    There are great fighters who don't need the Force to be amazing. This should be true in GFFA as well.

    Ara
    (Methos-maniac, Immie-wannabe and a swordfighter-wannabe)
  10. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    Considering Highlanders are mystical, immortal, and imbued with powers of there kills, thats not quite a fair analogy. They are not normal in any sense of the word, while they don't have the force they have the quickening.
  11. Gandalf the Grey Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2000
    star 6
    As others have said, both.

    Jacen is able to fight his way past a few Vong warriors in Balance Point without the Force. Given that the Vong practically grow up with amphistaffs in hand, I'd say that's an indication that he has excellent skills even without the Force.
  12. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    In a fight between Methos and Katarn, Methos would get the ever-living tar kicked out of him. No competition there.
  13. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    True, considering a lightsaber would burn right through Metho's sword instaniously, and that Kyle has at least 1000 years worth of experiance of fighting, and maybe had past lives before that, as well. Let's not forget the powers that kyle could unleash, if he was desperate to survive.
  14. Knight1192 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2000
    star 6
    Are we talking the modern "I just wanna live my life in peace" Methos or the bronze-age four horsemen of the Apocolypse Methos? By the way, if you haven't read it, try Highlander: Captive Soul. I believe it has Methos showing off some of his abilities.

    More to the point. Highlander Immortals fight using blades that actually have some weight to them. All of a lightsaber's weight can be found in the handle. The blade itself weighs nothing, or if it does have any weight at all, it's next to nothing. It requires a different kind of swordsmanship from what we see on the Highlander movies and TV shows, and what we read about in the novels.

    Therefore, we couldn't take say Duncan or Connor and give them a lightsaber and think their going to right away kick a**. They'd first have to get used to the difference in the weight. Same with them going from a claymore to a katana.

    The claymore is a bigger, heavier sword than the katana. They had to get some training before they could be expected to fight with the same kind of confidence and ability. That is to say, concerning ability, that the extra weight from the claymore no doubt requires a tad bit more strength to swing. With the weight gone, swinging a katana as if it were a claymore would unbalance the user.
  15. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    Speaking of which.

    I've never really watched highlander the show, but I loved the first movie, hated the second, thought the third was a kinky remake of the first -- was the fourth any good, considering I'm not really interested in that one for the plot but for some amazing swordfights?
  16. Knight1192 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2000
    star 6
    Well, it's got a lot of swordfighting all right. And it seems fairly fast paced. If you've never watched the shows, then some of it may be confuseing. If you have watched a few of the shows, then you stand a better chance of following who's who since most of the known folks in it come from the TV series. And Duncan has a whole lot more sword action than Connor does. sadly, we loose a constant from the frist three movies.

    I have to agree with you on two. I can only hope the Director's Cut is better and that it got rid of the "Immortals are aliens" story line. I hated that. It ruined the whole mythical presence of Immortals from the original.
  17. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    The Director's cut was better.
  18. Knight1192 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2000
    star 6
    It got rid of that damn aliens story line?
  19. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
  20. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    Yet considering highlander 4 contradicts both 2 and 3. I've given up on highlander. I'm more of a fan of the Original highlander character.
  21. Knight1192 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2000
    star 6
    Hey, 2 and 3 contradicted the original when you think about it. I mean Connor was supposed to have been one of the four last Immortals in the world at the start of the original, and after defeating the Kurgan at the end he won the prize. Only to have new Immortals appear in 2 and a group of Immortals who got trapped in three escape and come back. All three of the last Highlander movies contradicted the Original.

    The series stood a chance of not contradicting, except for the fact that the original was supposed to take place in 1986, I believe. Even so, one could say that the original movie took place at a later date. Then have Duncan end up looseing his head so that it is Connor who wins the prize. But considering the popularity of the series and all, that wasn't going to happen.
  22. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    no, 2, and 3 didn't contradict the story. Depending on ones point of view.

    Conner fullfilled the prophecy, and would have died of old age. But depending on which version. Immortals from planet zeist, or from the past appear to challenge him. breaking his quickening skill.

    3, we find out that quickening in the first movie was just a false call. conner thought they were all dead, but of course 2 others existed. Then the tv show by itself, explained that new immortals could be born, if killed violently. So the quickening could never be an aptainable goal. Unless all highlanders were killed and no new ones created.

    Yet 4 I'd rather not talk about, same with the upcoming 5, :p(Why do they even give them tentative numbering system?).
  23. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    The directors cut of two is just as bad -- the come from some unspecified point in earth's distant past, a point at which automatic weapons and time machines existed. Somehow, from this past, they are able to watch people from the future presented in the film as if on television. And Ramirez' reappearance and explanation make no sense at all.

    Highlander 3 just ignored two, and got around the end of 1 by having the bad guys come through that time warp thing.
  24. Knight1192 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2000
    star 6
    Time Warp? They were trapped when the master/wizard who was teaching Connor died and his life force caused an earthquake/cave in that sealed them in his cave until the archeologists came along.
  25. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    Yes, they are all pretty cheesy.
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