Rebels Sabine

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by newdawn12, Feb 16, 2014.

  1. Darkslayer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2013
    star 4
    It just screams Disney to me, and not in a good way like Marvel/Pixar. And pink Mandos? WTH???!!! I can only imagine Pre Vizsla's reaction.
  2. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Mandos can color their armor whatever they want to. At least, if they adhere to their Legends culture.

    And who cares what Pre Vizsla thinks, anyways? He wasn't a true Mandalorian, he was the leader of Death Watch, a splinter faction. If Sabine is a member of the Mandalorian clans, she would at best consider Vizsla to be a traitor. And I hate how our culture today has made pink into a girly color. It's just a color, like blue or yellow or green or purple. It's just a color. Anything that makes it "girly" is just a stereotype created by today's culture, and not a factor in a Mandalorian's armor.
  3. Jedi Knight Fett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2014
    star 4
    See that Mandolorian culture is now legends so there is a chance they could use it but for now it is non canon.
  4. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    True but it's still as good an explanation as any for why pink armor isn't ridiculous.
    Force Smuggler likes this.
  5. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    The way Filoni speaks of the Mandalorians and explains how in the EU "they were pretty much Klingons" does not make me think that the old continuity - in regards to Mandalorians - will carry over, and thus I don't suspect that Sabine would consider Pre Vizsla a traitor.

    In TCW, it seemed to be that there were merely the Mandalorian pacifists that arose out of disillusionment of the destruction of war, and the Death Watch that wanted to resurrect the warrior culture, of which Sabine seems to be a part. There doesn't seem to be any indication of a third group. The only third group, would be Bo-Katan's subfaction of Death Watch, that based on story meeting artwork, seems like she was going to become provisional leader of Mandalore, which may yet prove to be canon and might explain the return to a warrior culture by Sabine's time.

    I don't think that Bo-Katan would drag Pre Vizsla's name through the mud. He was the true leader of Death Watch that was killed by an outsider, in her eyes.
  6. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Fair point. I'd be okay with Bo-Katan's subfaction being considered the "true" Mandalorians, with the EU Mandos being Legends now. I don't agree with the idea that Sabine will be Death Watch, but she may be a member of Bo-Katan's Nite Owls (hence her helmet). If Bo-Katan does become the provisional leader of Mandalore, I'd be totally psyched if we got an episode where the crew of the Ghost visits Mandalore. Just as long as we don't see any pacifists (or Almec, unless it's his bloody corpse).
  7. Darkslayer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2013
    star 4
    I'm not trying to be annoying/judge prematurely, but when I hear Mandalorian I think things like these:

    [IMG]

    [IMG]

    Not this:

    [IMG]
    Last edited by Darkslayer, May 13, 2014
  8. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    There's no comparison between a picture and a video. Don't judge until we see her in action.
  9. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    "You're a Mandalorian, aren't you?"

    "What makes you think that?"

    "I saw your helmet. Only Mandalorians wear that kind of head gear."

    "Maybe I killed a Mandalorian and took it from him."

    "That's impossible. No one can kill a Mandalorian."

    "I wish that were so."

    "What do you mean?"

    "The Mandalorians were once the strongest warriors the Old Republic knew. Before the Dark Times. Before the Clone Wars 2008 cartoons. Before Satine and the pacifist Mandos..."

    [face_whistling]
  10. rdhight Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2014
    star 3
    Mandalorians are on a strange journey. Watching Boba Fett, you figure Mandalorians are some sort of awesome warrior. Not equal to Jedi, but cool and all business. Sequel trilogy, you see Jango and the Mandalorian influence on the clones, it looks like awesome warrior was about right (if still not more awesome than Jedi). Clone Wars, the pacifist angle comes along... I came to see Star WARS, why are the pacifists being held up for our approval? But Pre Visla follows his beliefs even to death, so clearly the awesome warrior thing is still alive. And good for the writers for going in a non-intuitive direction and making the Mandalorians polite and cultured instead of grunting, one-note Klingon types. But now we're supposed to again think Sabine is clearly awesome, and she fights and kills as a good guy. Kind of undoes the pacifist thing, but we can accept her as an outlier who kills... wait a second... in a pink, artsy way...? Ooooo-kaaaaaay....

    Something odd is going on here. Is 5 BBY the equivalent of 1969 on Mandalore? A crazy social upheaval?
    Last edited by rdhight, May 13, 2014
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  11. Heero_Yuy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 4
    Her and Ezra definitely seem like they'll be the polarizing characters in SWR. As I said before, Sabine'll either be the break out character or a disaster. It's all in the execution.

    Indeed she does seem like she was made with a checklist of appealing traits in mind. Me? I'd have added cat ears to her helmet that twitch during certain scenes and have her say, "Nya!" At the end of her sentences.

    . . . Don't judge me!
    Revanfan1 and TaradosGon like this.
  12. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    I do agree with Filoni that the Mandalorians did outwardly strike me as very Klingon-like. Even down to people coming here and making comments in the Mandalorian language, in the same way that Trekkies would do the same in the Klingon language (Qapla'!).

    In universe both have warrior cultures, and even in TCW where Maul challenges Pre Vizsla for control of the clans and the notion that "only the strongest should rule" has been done in Star Trek, when Worf challenged Gowron in a rite of succession for control of the Klingon Empire (which he passes immediately to Martok), and with the Empire being divided among feudal "great houses" just as the Mandalorians are broken into clans. And even while the various Klingon factions don't all have proper names like "Death Watch" or "True Mandalorian," the Klingons, like the Mandalorians, also broke down between those that were actually honorable warriors, and those that behaved as little more than drunken pirates - more like how the Mandlorians were depicted in the TCW episode "A Friend in Need."

    I'm actually pretty glad that TCW differentiated the groups, though that Jango is now regarded as not being Mandalorian, as Filoni explained was Lucas' vision, was a random decision, since Boba Fett really gave rise to the whole Mandalorian thing to begin with.
  13. StrikerKOJ Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2014
    star 2
    I liked the Star Wars universe better when the Mandalorians were more of a myth or legend than just another group of dudes. I liked the idea of Mandalorians being mentioned in hushed tones, with respect and awe, and an aura of might and wonder about them. It made the idea of Boba Fett wearing the armor more powerful. Whether or not Boba Fett was just a man, he wore the armor of a long lost warrior race known throughout the galaxy which brought menace and fear, instilling images in the viewers mind of the Knights Templar, and the legends told of them today.

    And then Jango Fett is there, with his own set of shiney Mandalorian armor, and Boba is just a clone. Fine, two guys in the galaxy with the armor, still pretty cool and intimidating.

    And then a whole gosh darn planet full of them, with a bunch of whiney pacifists.

    And then some punk teenager with Pink armor and a spray can...

    So much for the idea of mystery. Just another group of dudes with an unlimited supply of cool looking armor, that aren't really that mysterious or intimidating anymore. Just like the Jedi and the lightsaber.

    In the words of the great Syndrome: "When everyone's super... no one is."
    rdhight and TKT like this.
  14. DanielUK Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    Sabine is the character I look forward to the most out of the 'heros' camp; I don't think she will be a disaster and no where near as alienating as Ashoka and Ezra
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  15. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    That's pretty weak. It would be just as easy to show Jango and Pre in non-action poses contrasted wtih Sabine in an action pose. And that would also prove nothing.
  16. Darkslayer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2013
    star 4
    It's not the pose that I wasn't crazy about, it's the look/description. It's the complete opposite of what we've seen from Mandos so far IMO. If you like it then great, but my initial impression was just not crazy. But I'm still going to give the show a chance!
    Last edited by Darkslayer, May 14, 2014
  17. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    I'm not overly concerned with the color of her armor and, like you, am waiting to see the show to pass judgment on the character.
    Revanfan1 likes this.
  18. rdhight Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2014
    star 3

    The thing she has in her favor is that she can pull out her guns and shoot a stormtrooper right in the face. Easy way to raise her stock. Whereas every time Ezra uses his slingshot, we'll probably just hate him even more. And whether Kanan uses his blaster or lightsaber, someone will always complain that he should have used the other one. Sabine can take part in an action sequence in a way everyone can appreciate.
  19. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    It depends on how long he continues to use it throughout the series. We know he'll graduate to a lightsaber eventually, we just don't know if he'll continue to use the slingshot before he gets his saber or if he'll switch over to a blaster at some point. Especially if the slingshot is non-lethal. As for Kanan, I don't care what he uses–I just want him to do something significant, whether wielding saber or blaster.
  20. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2013
    star 4
    Regarding all Mandalorian history outside of TCW being 'Legends', we'll have to wait and see. Rebels can yet delve in both Mandalorian history further or even just the modern incarnation, and it may or may not disregard what we know the Mandalorians to be doing during this era. I don't expect the Mandalorian Protectors to appear as they were in the old EU, if at all, but I don't see why the Story Group can't take inspiration from what was already established regarding Mando history.

    The post-TCW EU on Mandalore explains rather neatly the kind of history that brought forth the New Mandalorians. The events of the Mandalorian Excision and the subsequent Great Clan Wars (vaguely referenced in the S2 Mandalore trilogy) resulted in a split of ideologies in the Mandalorian clans, and this resulted in the formation of three factions: the True Mandalorians, those who held on to the old traditions, specifically those of the Mandalorian warrior code, the Resol'nare; Death Watch, a terrorist faction more akin to the war-like, galaxy-conquering Mandalorians of the KOTOR era, who wish to make Mandalorians the dominant group in the galaxy; and the New Mandalorians, the pacifistic faction that arose following the horrors of seeing their worlds ravaged by the preemptive war by the Republic.

    Given how much Old Republic-era EU Filoni and the TCW crew were able to shoehorn into the Mandalore episodes of the show, I expect this to continue in Rebels regarding Satine.

    In fact, I'd say Sabine is an attempt by Filoni to add more variety to the portrayal of the Mandalorians in TCW, which was largely black (Death Watch - warriors) and white (New Mandalorians - pacifists). Sabine is more like Bo-Katan in The Lawless, a warrior Mando who seems to have the best interests of the people in mind and less inclined toward ruthlessness than Pre Vizsla was (although she was pretty ruthless before then, so who knows). Indeed, I recall an interview where Filoni mentioned that Sabine was a sort of spiritual successor to Bo-Katan (different characters, mind you), a Mandalorian warrior character who we shouldn't hesitate to root for. Sabine may hint at the history of the True Mandalorian clans being restored to canon (Filoni being a fan of them and all), which would give us something more interesting than all warrior Mandos being unsympathetic and the pacifistic New Mandos being, well, pathetic.
    Revanfan1 and H-BOMB like this.
  21. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    @Circular Logic

    Even, if Filoni keeps it merely as the Death Watch vs. the Pacifists without introducing True Mandalorians, I don't think that precludes the possibility of Sabine being a character you can root for. Bo-Katan was already beginning to form a mutual respect for Obi-Wan (a Jedi) and deviating from Pre Vizsla in that regard. Pre Vizsla wanted to throw his lot in with Dooku to win control over Mandalore, and yet he often showed that he had a certain historical antipathy for the Jedi. Then he allies with Maul after being betrayed by Dooku, again looking to win control of Mandalore, and again he's supporting an enemy of the Republic and would likely have joined the fight against the Republic/Jedi, but Maul ultimately kills him.

    They had allied with the CIS and Maul, both enemies of the Republic/Jedi and had been betrayed. But then pretty much went the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" route and allied with Obi-Wan against Maul and the faction of Death Watch that recognized him as their ruler.

    Whether Bo continues to call her faction Death Watch or renames it (and same for Maul's faction), I don't know. The name "True Mandalorians" may yet be revived for the name of Bo's faction, but my understanding of the True Mandalorians was that they had existed as a section of Mandalorians that were against the war mongering ways of the old Mandalorian culture and instead turned to the lives of mercenaries, fighting for others instead of themselves as being the "honorable" way to do it.

    I don't think that aspect is going to be revived, even if the name True Mandalorian is. We see Bo being named provisional ruler of Mandalore with Ahsoka present in some artwork from the would-be future seasons of TCW. I'm guessing the S5 Mandalore cliffhanger of the battle erupting on Mandalore with Obi-Wan leaving to inform the Republic ultimately culminates with the Republic returning and naming her leader. Whether they turn to the mercenary life or continue to fight under the Republic banner is unknown, but I'm guessing the latter. And then with the characters of Rebels all having "deeply personal reasons for opposing the Empire" I am guessing things go sour between the Empire and Mandalorians.

    They might be "True Mandalorian" like, they might borrow the name. But I'm not anticipating that they'll keep much of the history, especially when Filoni still supports Lucas in that Jango is not meant to be a Mandalorian, when he has every opportunity to retcon that decision, but still does not. Pablo has also mentioned that even though Lucas is not directly working on the show, that he has extensive notes on what this time period is like that he has left for the crew to work off of. So, if there is anything in there about where the Mandalorians fit, or if they are going to continue on with Bo-Katan as provisional ruler of Mandalore as being canon (despite the episode not making it to animation or airing), then while aspects of the EU might survive into the Rebels' depiction of Mandalorians, I'm not anticipating the EU to be resurrected on the matter in much other than possibly the name of group, and their outlook.
  22. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    It's not necessarily that they fight for others rather than themselves, but rather they don't go for the Death Watch ideals of being conquering warriors. They're still soldiers and they're definitely not afraid to fight for themselves, but rather they don't really want to be a political or military entity of their own like the Death Watch does. The Death Watch wants to relive the glory days when the Mandalorians nearly conquered the galaxy. The True Mandalorians are content to live as they are, as long as they have their planet and their code. I actually could see Bo-Katan's faction being used as "True" Mandalorians, because unlike Vizsla, Bo never really showed any enthusiasm to conquering systems outside of Mandalore. She just wanted her people to return to their warrior ways rather than pacifism and stay on Mandalore. Which is basically what a True Mandalorian is.
    Circular Logic likes this.
  23. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2013
    star 4
    @TaradosGon

    I agree with many of your points. I think what you are trying to argue more or less supports what I've stated earlier, only you seem more pessimistic about the prospects of the pre-TCW Mandalorian EU. While I do think they might choose to disregard the pre-established history of the True Mandalorians in the millennium before the Battle of Yavin, there's no reason they won't adopt their ideology, their outlook, like you said. They are almost certainly going to play up the Mandalorians as bounty hunters angle, which was already established by Jango and Boba Fett's stories. Even if Jango isn't regarded by Lucas and the Story Group as a 'true' Mandalorian, that doesn't preclude Boba from using his father's Mandalorian connections (armor, friendships with the Cuy'val Dar, etc.) to make his mark on Mandalore during the Dark Times and beyond, if him surviving RotJ is still canon. But the Fett argument is largely irrelevant here, as it doesn't change my point whether or not they are True Mandalorians. I'm only arguing based on the characters in TCW, and Sabine herself, who were shown to be Mandalorians.

    What we know about Sabine seems to hint at the veracity of Dark Times-era Mandalorian EU. That is, that the Mandalorians and the Empire had a falling out, which explains why Sabine has reason to hate the Empire and fight against them. In the old EU, the Mandalorian Protectors fought a long guerrilla war against the occupying Imperial forces in trying to take back their homeworld. The Mando'ade were being enslaved by the Empire and their planet stripped for the invaluable reserves of beskar to supply the Imperial war machine. I wouldn't be surprised if these events make it to Sabine's backstory in Rebels, and hence, established the canonicity of these particular stories, even if they are not exactly as they were told before. The Mandalore of this era, Fenn Shysa, for example, may be retconned out of existence or his story changed almost beyond recognition. They may, as you hint, choose to replace him altogether with Bo-Katan as the new Mandalore. Who knows?

    Point is, the revelations about Sabine's history may have a profound effect on what Mandalorian EU from Legends survives, if any, and how Mandalore is treated by the single canon going forward. I look forward to seeing what transpires.
  24. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    The whole point of a warrior is to go to war. I don't know if I'm keen on the idea of a warrior culture taking over a planet and then being content to just stop there. I don't know much of the Mandalorian EU, other than what I can remember from skimming their wook articles awhile back, but people talk of Death Watch like they are sick of Death Watch and that they are terrorists and a radical splinter group, etc. But to me they sound exactly like what I'd imagine a warrior culture to be.

    Whether its a real world warrior culture like the Spartans, Samurai or Knights of medieval Europe, warrior cultures usually don't just sit around indefinitely. Japan after a long period of warlords fighting each other, once order was established in the country, they invaded Korea. In the case of Europe, we have knights fighting each other and then having their aggression directed by the Pope to the crusades.

    Or there are fictional cultures like the Klingons, who while will be at peace for awhile, ultimately adopt an expand or die philosophy.

    The notion of a warrior culture of mercenaries content to not actually conduct war for the purposes of territorial conquest is a novel idea, but I'm not sure it makes the most sense.

    And I'd have to clarify that this is in cases where the warriors are the ruling elite. Because many societies have soldiers/warriors, but to have it be so ingrained in the culture that they are the ruling class, such societies usually aren't content to be isolationist or peaceful to their neighbors for very long.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, May 15, 2014
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  25. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    I see your point. But there's a difference between going to war–which the True Mandalorians do, only for hire, not to conquer–and trying to conquer the galaxy, which is what Death Watch (at least, Vizsla) wants to do. The True Mandalorians fight for fortune, but they usually come back to Mandalore when the war's over.