Full Series Sabine

This is where I wish I had watched all the episodes of the Clone Wars. Can someone tell me what a Mauldalorian is? I think I have an idea from the name. Also I seem to remember the Mandalorians on the show being a bunch of blue-eyed blonds. Sabine, where did you come from girl? I could see her having a clone dad, but not necessarily. I always thought Mandalorian was more of a culture than an actual race anyway. Although I do remember reading somewhere that they were originally some sort of grey-skinned aliens.

 

There's quite a bit to explain around this...

The current establishment on Mandalore is a pacifist society formerly led by the Duchess Satine Kryze. (We'll get to that in a minute) TCW made it clear that these guys are the indigenous Mandalorian population. Alongside this society, there is a group of disaffected Mandalorians who oppose Satine's pacifist regime and want to reconnect Mandalore with its traditional warrior heritage. This group is called Death Watch (yes, just like from the EU) and they're led by Governor Pre Vizsla (it's never been said what the status of Tor Vizsla is although I think it's safe to assume he's no longer canon). Well, Pre Vizsla was a Governor (of Mandalore's moon, Concordia) but his secret society was uncovered by Obi Wan and it was also discovered that he was in league with Count Dooku. So Vizsla left his post as Governor of Concordia and took Death Watch with him, and they essentially roamed the galaxy as bullies and thugs for hire, but still ultimately aspiring to retake Mandalore.

I don't know if I also need to explain what happened with Darth Maul in TCW, but he and his brother Savage Opress had a botched plan to ally with defectors from Hondo Onaka's band of pirates, which left the two of them barely alive and stranded in space. Death Watch patrols happened upon their drifting escape pod and took them back to their current camp to patch them up. Then Maul made an alliance with Pre Vizsla to retake Mandalore as they both wanted revenge for Kenobi messing up their plans. They recruited a bunch of other crime organisations to their cause, including the Black Sun, the Pykes and the Hutt clans, and hatched an elaborate ruse whereby the crime organisations attacked Mandalore, exposing the weakness of Duchess Satine's regime because her guards were useless, and Death Watch would swoop in and save the day. It all went off without a hitch, Satine was deposed as leader and Pre Vizsla assumed control of Mandalore by sedition. Then when it emerged that Maul planned to use Mandalore as a base to control a galactic criminal underworld, called the Shadow Collective, with Vizsla being his puppet leader, Vizsla had him arrested, exposed in public as the leader of the attackers and thrown in jail.

Maul and Savage then broke out of jail and spoke to Mandalore's ex-Prime Minister, Almec, who was sacked in a previous season for buying supplies off the Black Market. Maul then challenged Pre Vizsla to a fight to the death for the title of Mandalore, which he won. But though he claimed the title of Mandalore, members of Death Watch were conflicted over whether Maul's reign was legitimate. Those who joined his side became the Mauldalorians.

 

Outsider or not, Katan's came off as more bitter in the fact that Maul simply killed Vizla whom she likely had a sexual relationship with, or at the very least an unwavering loyalty to a cult leader and father figure. Vizla seems to be the guy that resurrected Old Mandalorian traditions and built up a small well armed militia that likely spread across the systems and colonies that Mandalorians settled and influenced. Maul soundly defeat Vizla in both swordsmanship and hand-to-hand combat cemented that was the superior leader - this was further augmented that Maul outwitted Vizla and came up with the master plan. Maul went from a small bit player to the head honcho in no time . Vizla was never able to take Mandalore and once more than to take 2nd seat to a Sith Lord, first time was with Dooku and both times they needed to first weaken Satine's image and government and gain the support of the people. Mandalorians despite weakess, in the 2nd season you had Vizla himself shooting dead his ownw wounded men for failure now here was Vizla, despite all his weaponry and Maul giving essentially a fair fight without use of the darkside, was humiliated and utterly defeated to the point Vizla himself admitted he was weak thus crowning Maul supreme ruler of Death Watch and Mandalore. Sundari wasnt that important, more symbolic. The rebels would be the government loyalists of Satine, even if Katan managed to organize them, they'd be very few in number as the Sundari population lacked the commitment and stomach for war to begin with. Katan's checkered past would also logically be an issue as she was a terrorist and routinely killed Mandalorian soldiers and civilians that did not accept Death Watch's politics. Katan was a Death Watch lieutenant, and they tried on numerous occasions to kill Satine and succeeded in imprisoning where she wouldve remained for life or be publicly executed at some point.

I agree that the Maul stylized Death Watch soldiers seems to defeat the purpose of playing along with initial Shadow government ploy, as Maul and Opress were both put on public display making them public enemy number 1, this was switched to Satine, she was blamed for killing Vizla. It is possible some months passed after Vizla's death and the storyline didnt matter anymore, anymore than Palpatine's lie for the formation of the Galactic Empire and you see Vader and others bringing the galaxy under its boot by force and slavery. Sundari was really insignificant as Sundari's population wasnt really important, as Death Watch soldiers came from a different class and groups of Mandalorians mostly off world and its likely they were sworn in by Maul himself who oversaw their militarization as acting leader. Death Watch was loyal only to Death Watch's leader and cause . Only those who shared their warrior elitism and swore loyalty to Maul would be able to be warriors. Even if Katan was gearing up a few Mandalorians on Sundari or recruited some allies off world, they'd be a small minority and she herself is a treaitor in Death Watch's eyes and she broke from tradition and chose to ally herself with a Jedi, who Mandalorians ancient enemy and sought Republic foreign intervention. I cannot see her being particularly well liked among the ranks of Death Watch and like minded imitates. If she successfully rallied behind Republic military invasion and the routing of Death Watch, the Empire would form there and oppress the people which would further make Katan out to be a complete idiot and even worse position as traitor as she brought a foreign government's military to Mandalore which conquered it.

It is like Maul warned her, history would not see it her way, she's a traitor. If she did not break ranks and aid in further disstablizing acts of sedition by plunging Mandalore into a civil unrest and helped open the door for a military invasion war, Mandalore under Maul could've been really the only planet (which also influenced and controlled a 1000 other non Republic or Seperatist systems( free of Imperial oppression and the only organized military that could actually take Coruscant and defeat the Sith. Coupled that with the Shadow Collective's near endless resources, they wouldve won by simple attrition alone.

 

I don't see any implication that Bo and Vizsla had a sexual relationship (that I can remember anyway). Nor why she'd want to have one with a father figure... Vizsla was just the charismatic face of Mandalore's warrior culture, and I'm sure she admired that, but there were plenty of people that did. And when Maul took over, it's not like Bo was the only one that refused to follow him. Vizsla was a proud warrior when he wasn't acting like a drunk pirate. He cared about Mandalorian traditions and the warrior culture, and his followers looked up to him for it. When he got killed by an outsider that obviously didn't care about Mandalorian culture other than to manipulate it to seize control of the planet, there were obviously people - including but not limited to Bo - that had a problem with that. Now there were obviously those Mandalorians that believed that the strong should rule, no matter who that is, but you also had that sect under Bo that seemed to be fighting to liberate Mandalore from the control of an outsider.

 

Its doubtful they're asexual and Mandalore is a sexless society, they were an item if some sort obviously as something greater was going on in her head as she betrayed tradition(Almec made it clear so there is no point in debating as its not debatable otherwise Vizla would of never accepted the challenge and couldve ordered his men to open fire) , ignored Vizla's relinquishing rule of Death Watch and Mandalore to Maul, and turned to attack her own thus creating a Death Watch micro civil war within the ranks. Her group had only a small number and seemed only a minor annoyance. Maul also allowed the rebel group to free Satine from prison as he anticipated she's call in Kenobi. Their apparent last action was aiding Kenobi's escape so he could bring in Jedi and Republic military. By SOD their is no hints that the city was not securely controlled by Death Watch so evidently they won as they had an army levied and stationed by Almec on Zanbar awaiting Maul's return that he'd lead against Sidious and battle across the stars. Through Maul Death Watch took control of Mandalore once more, he was the brains and pillar behind that which wouldve further made Vizla weak to his men, and he would return Death Watch to greater galactic prominence as he led them in the war they been waiting for their entire lives as he led on the crusade against their enemies(Dooku, Republic, Jedi). His rule and their loyalty was absolute in SOD, they even had a Roman style salute. So he is very much reigning legitimate leader. Death Watch Mandalorians and Nightbrothers have a lot in common anyway, as they're both pure warrior based cultures that value loyalty, valor and honor and follow a cult of the leader.

Death Watch Mandalorians soldiers arent interested in money , the struggle of their leader is their struggle now - besides its what they do, they're a war mongering cult of bloodthirsty warriors that relish in war and conquering its what they do. So its irrelevant even if Maul was just using them, its their job and mantra to follow the leader and do what they're told. They couldve abandoned him on Stygeon and let him rot if they did were lesser than what they are or if he was some disposable stand in outsider they didnt want.

Maul wasnt much Sith-minded by SOD, but was an Alexander/Caesar-like general that was leading in the front lines and had the full command, respect and loyalty of the men he led. If he was a chump, Rook wouldve put one in his head on Dathomir, or his own men wouldve long since fled along with the Pykes and Black Sun, they didnt and their was some hidden plan as Rook said without Maul all would be lost and and restrained his fury as he was ready to charge into the maelstrom to kill or be killed along with his mother who herself knew her son was more important and had a great destiny to fulfill. So there is a far bigger picture yet to be revealed.



Clan Vizla is the origin and base of Death Watch , which modern incarnation derives via Pre - and the darksaber the symbol of rule, which know squarely belongs in the hands of Maul.

 

Maybe Katan just realized that in this case following traditions would only lead to the ruin of Mandalore and its people.

To Maul, Mandalore was nothing more than a tool, an ends to his needs, a place to fortify his power. He would dispose of it in a heartbeat, if it became necessary. Eventually, Mandalore would fall prey to his power-lust.

As bad as Vizla was, he would never betray Mandalore itself, and Katan knew this. I find that to be a more logical explanation for her behavior rather than a romantic relationship that was never really implied in the series.

 

Well Katan never looked at Pre as evil I would say she is as evil as pre but no she new that pre would never betray them.

 

I don't think she's evil. But she believed really strongly in the warrior ways. She still loved her sister, and didn't want to see Mandalore taken over by someone who wasn't Mandalorian, even if they did beat Vizsla and win that title.

 

Burning down a village seems pretty evil to me.

 

Katan was a mass murderer along with the rest of the blood thirsty Death Watch, they're fanatic extremists that are only interested in waging war and death . There she was executing innocent non-Mandalorians peoples off world and she's very cold-blooded prior to her good-guy turn, they were gunning down and blowtorching unarmed people as they took control of a non-hostile planet and village that time, the people were nothing more than slaves. Katan had no moral or ethical qualms then nor any problem with Death Watch /Vizla's efforts to kill Satine prior to his death. The sister stuff is rather dumb, but likely just used a plot convenience to make you feel for this character and show that she's a good-guy now and all is well - even Satine is all of a sudden happy like hey sure you're pardoned and we could be sisters again despite your crimes against humanity and seditious terrorist criminal acts against the state. Plus its a jump to think Bo-Katan would hand over control of Mandalore even if she succeeded in restoring Satine and/or have the audience believe that Satine would align herself with a terrorist criminal splinter leader of Death Watch and not hold her and them accountable for past crimes and their role in the whole war to begin with. Katan is directly responsible along with Vizla for the situation on Mandalore. Anyway, she only broke rank once Maul killed Vizla and assumed control of Death Watch, there wasnt really a ethical or moral reason. Even if you do not want think there is anything deeper to the Vizla/Katan pair and just the Maul the outsider, that only shows she's a bigot ethnocentric nationalist and violently aggressive to non-Mandalorian people, certainly not a good-guy material reason for rebelling and becoming part of the New Mandalorians whom are peaceful liberal pacifists.

 

This so much she is as evil as the lot of them but that does not mean we can not like them but I agree she is evil and so on.

 

Yeah, they did do that. :/ I guess what I'm trying to say is that no one is really 'evil'. I mean, look at Ventress. She killed people too. And she managed to at least become better over time. You know, character development and all that. I really wish they had done the Bo-Katan/Ahsoka/Maul arc though. And explain why Ahsoka decided to work with her.

Vorax

Those are good points. I think that if Vizsla had defeated Maul and become Mandalore, her sister might have been just locked up or something. ( Do you think they would have still killed her?) But Satine and Bo are still sisters, even though they took really different paths. I mean, no matter how much they try, that's something that they can't ever truly forget.

I guess it's why I also want a book or something that revolves around Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon going to Mandalore years ago. Because then we might see what set Bo and Satine on different paths in the first place and started to lead them to become who they are.

 

You have a weird way of defining "evil".

 

I suppose. I mean, they are killers; yes. But I still think people can become less 'evil' and change. Well, some people anyway.

Anyway, we should probably get back to talking about Sabine.

Do you guys think we'll see one of her parents in the series? I mean I know she implied that something happened to them involving the Empire, but maybe one of them is still alive. Or at least someone who knew them.

 

Even after Asajj became a bounty hunter, she still randomly killed people like the dude in the cantina. I don't think we've really been shown that she became "better", that would only be if she stopped randomly killing people. She's the most randomly killing Sith ever, I don't even think Palpatine is that bad.

 

Siblings kill eachother, parents kill their kids and kids their parents in real life and in mythology. She's still homicidal killer fighting for a fanatic way of life and cause, even she had family issues that led her down a dark path, she's is what she is and has to be held accountable for her actions. Its isn't likely Vizla wouldve treated Satine to pleasant stay in prison, even if he was swayed by Bo-Katan(which there is nothing to suggest that nor that she felt anything for her sister prior to her good-guy turn) life in prison would still mean a slow death even if he flat out didnt take out in the courtyard and execute her. Vizla and Death Watch were responsible for various attacks on Satine's life, there is no ignoring that nor what I said above even if the writers want to try and sugarcoat Bo-Katan following the events of TCW. The sister turn was a bit much.

 

My last words on this Ventress my have at toned for what she did. But the vast majority of people will still consider her as evil as ever just saying.

 

Good point. I didn't really see it that way.

That's true too.

I didn't mind them being sisters. But they could/should have established it better I guess. It did sort of come out of nowhere.

 

Ventress is another one the writers take us into murky waters with, so far from season 5 she looked to be seeking some kinda under the table pardon for her past crimes not that she's a do-gooder with a one hand washed the other blackmail mentality, she seems to think she could continue roaming around as some neutral but former Sith-acolyte force wielding mercenary bounty hunter as if the Jedi would let this rogue darksider wonder about - namely during a time of a galactic upheaval with Sith waging a war and their own falling to the darkside . Anakin , Kenobi and Tano were acting outside the law and their own Jedi duty by following some personal code of honor which was why she is still not in custody or dead. Am interested in how Dark Disciple plans to deal with Ventress, but if the writers just think she would get away scott free, or for her hand in her sabers and accept a life of normality in tending garden in exile and expect the audience to accept that then they must be writing for the mentally underdeveloped . Palpatine/Sidious would still have a price tag on her head, as he ordered her terminated so no matter if the Republic of Palpatine allowed some deal, it wouldnt be real.

 

Well, Vader has got to kill someone...

 

This convo sorta reminds me of this bit.

 

To be fair, Vader had the blood of BILLIONS on his hands, and yet he was "redeemed" at the end of ROTJ (or at least that's what the saga would have you believe). Han pre-emptively killed someone in ANG (yes he shot first Lucas) and was not a particularly good person, and then he changed. Evil is weird in SW. It's often played up as very black and white, but they also like pulling the "redemption" card as well.

 

I always saw Han's shooting of Greedo as perfectly legitimate. I think it's the way he did it that marked Han as a bit underhanded and sneaky. But I never thought of him as particularly evil.

 

He was also willing to let Leia die on the Death Star "better her than me" until Luke dangled the prospect of getting bad lots of money in front of him. Han wasn't a nice guy back then, that much is pretty obvious. That's his big character arc in the OT.

 

Well, that's just being selfish. It's not his fault that her royal worshipfulness got captured.