Lit Sam Witwer "Karen Traviss, She Didn't Get Everything Right"

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Robimus, Jan 27, 2013.

  1. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    You can listen to the whole interview here:

    Sam Witwer gives his views of the Star Wars Expanded Universe, in detail. A few of the sound bites work out like this:

    "Its something Star Wars fans need to be appreciative of - Dave Filoni is a huge fan" - Witwer on how TCW uses the Expanded Universe

    "I do wish that Star Wars fans were more appreciative that they are taken care of like that" - Witwer on more of the same, talking about how Roddenberry didn't honor the Star Trek EU at all(so says Sam - I have no clue myself about that)

    "It is very clear if you watch ROTS that it(Order 66) is not an order on the books. And its simple from this one detail, that Karen Traviss ignored, but the detail is when Sidious shows up as a hologram and says execute order 66 the clones say it will be done my lord. Not yes sir, not yes chancellor...It will be done my lord"

    "The brain washing kicks in the moment they hear the words "Order 66" and they look at that hologram and they see god. They see the man responsible for their creation, Darth Sidious, and thats what it is."

    "If you are going to take Lucas and Filoni to task for changing the Mandalorians you have to take Karen Traviss to task for changing one of the most key plot points of the entire saga"

    "Commander Cody has never seen a Sith Lord"

    Now of course this has been a long standing debate amongst fans, was it brainwashing or was it just the clones following orders? One of the things that jumped out at me was the way Witwer charges at the Order 66 contigency order, saying its not a law that would have been on the Republic books.

    Palpatine made his whole Empire out of manipulating laws and to think that he wouldn't have a legal recourse to remove the Jedi is silly. Of course it would be a law on the books. That doesn't mean for certain that the clones were not brainwashed with only a few defeating their programming based upon life experience and such. The inclusion of Order 66 in the Republic law books seems to me to be an absolute must for Palpatine.

    Also its worth pointing out that James Luceno had clones questioning Order 66 way before Karen Traviss did, but for all of Sam's apparent knowledge of the EU this one slipped past him.

    Also its interesting to see how the clones in TCW itself work. We have clones like Cut, Slick and even Rex, soldiers developing extreme individuality - not unlike many of the clones from the expanded universe.

    Maybe I will be wrong and Rex will shoot Ahsoka in the back of the head as this series ends, I guess time will tell. It strikes me though that if George Lucas wanted the clones to be exactly the same as they appeared in the films that they would. We would get Slick and Cut, we wouldn't see all the scheming from the Umbara arc, so on.

    Its also kinda interesting how he seems to think that Karen wasn't taken to task by the fans, as if she is just revered by all :p

    Anyway I found this of interest and thought I should share.
    Last edited by Robimus, Jan 27, 2013
  2. family_business Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2006
    Karen Traviss was BY FAR the worst thing to ever happen to the Star Wars EU. She single-handledly ruined Star Wars readers for many readers over the course of many years. It took me 2 years to get over her crappy writing and Anti-Jedi crap. If I had to read one more Mando book from her, I would have screamed! I have a couple friends who read EU for many years, but they quit b/c of her. Karen Traviss was never revered by the fans. Yeah, I liked Hard Contact. It was the only book I liked of hers. When they announced a few years back she was fired, it was such a big sigh of relief. The way she left Star Wars was stand offish as well.

    RF: This is unnecessary and trollish, given the history of Traviss debates on these boards. But I'm leaving most of it here as an example of what *not* to do in this thread. So, the rest of you: don't do this. There are better, less inflammatory ways to express these types of sentiments.
    Last edited by Rogue_Follower, Jan 27, 2013
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  3. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Not really what this is about, but OK. :p
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  4. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1999
    star 6
    I take it as a great sign that he's at least conversant enough in this stuff to have opinions on it, but I totally disagree with him about Order 66. And I think it's fairly likely that TCW, ultimately, will as well.
  5. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    Dammit Witwer, you just annoy me more. Please go back to being dead in BSG.

    In all seriousness, I appreciate his openness with his opinions. Not that I agree with them, but it's better to see someone acknowledge their dislikes rather than trying to write plots into their stories to discredit someone else. (coughDenningcough)

    I personally don't like the idea of brainwashing the clones, since it completely undercuts all character development we've seen with them. I find it is much more effective watching someone face an order they might take issue with, and how they react to it. The writers go into this great effort to describe how Clones are more than just wet droids, and then the idea that there is a button in their brain that triggers KILL EVERYTHING, just destroys that.

    Knowing you are being manipulated and being incapable of dealing with it is more tragic than not realizing it at all.
    Last edited by Darth_Zandalor, Jan 27, 2013
  6. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    Interesting, but nothing I haven't heard or thought about before.
  7. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    In fairness he does say that he thought Traviss's take was neat, but that she ignored the film. Though other things he says do make me question if he has read the books.

    Its clear he knows who signs his paycheck anyway :p
  8. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    He's still Failoni's spokesperson, since the former seems to have dropped away after one too many angry fan reactions to his video blogs.
  9. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    No, it's not something I need to be appreciative of, and TCW's total disregard for EU makes Dave Filoni's alleged fan status irrelevant.

    George Lucas doesn't honor the EU at all.

    More Witwer talking out of his ***, more reason for me to believe this guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

    GO AWAY CRASHDOWN. You're a terrible voice actor anyway.

    It's funny you used the word "remove", instead of exterminate, which the Order states.

    I find it absolutely absurd and way beyond belief that the Jedi would stand for such a law, and equally absurd that they wouldn't know of such a law.

    How the hell can the Jedi serve with the clones when they know the clones have legal rights to exterminate them, no questions asked, no prisoners taken? How can you turn your back on someone that is legally able and potentially required to murder you?

    It's not at all a "must" for Palpatine, especially if the clones are brainwashed to obey him.
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  10. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    So your saying that having permission from the Senate to destroy the Jedi without trial wasn't important? Seems to me like its a loose end that he would not have risked.

    Keep in mind their were contingency orders to remove the chancellor as well should the need arise. Granted they were tilted in Palpatine's favor.


    Based on what do you say that the Jedi didn't know about the law?
    Last edited by Robimus, Jan 27, 2013
  11. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    I think Witwer might be referring to the conversation Etain had with delta squad regarding the contingency protocols. Of course the Jedi would oppose order 66, but Palps was smart enough to cover his tracks by placing it alongside multiple contingency plans that also involved subjugating the Senate and the Chancellor under similar circumstances.
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  12. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    My initial thought would be that the Jedi did know about the order, just accepted it thinking it was something that would never come into play.
  13. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    It's not a question of what Sidious wants, it just wouldn't happen, and it wouldn't be necessary.

    "Remove" the Chancellor, not murder him, no questions asked, no prisoners taken.

    Their reaction to it? They didn't seem to know what the hell was going on in ROTS, Yoda and Obi-Wan were confused and looking for answers.

    They didn't go "Oh, they must have executed Order 66, that contingency plan to exterminate the Jedi Order we've known about all along." Because really, that would be absurd.

    If the Jedi knew about it, wouldn't they have some kind of contingency plan in place as well? Instead, they are taken completely by surprise and have no idea what to do after it happens.

    If the law existed (which would be absurd) the Jedi would know about it, and would never go along with it, much less serve with their appointed executioners.

    It's just beyond stupid and doesn't work.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Jan 27, 2013
  14. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    So is that a sleight against Traviss or Lucas?
  15. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Why would that be their first thought?

    I'm just curious, if it was a singular plan, why number it 66? The natural reaction I have to that is to wonder what the other 65 orders were. Why not "execute spoonbender" or "execute plan alpha" instead?
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  16. godisawesome Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2010
    star 1
    I never really cared to delve to deep into Order 66. I like to think its a bit of a mixture of brainwashing to follow all orders combined with contingency protocols, since I fell there are far too many clones in the series who see fit to question orders.

    And I think he's right about the EU still getting respect from TCW and Lucas. Roddenberry and Trek never accepted anything from their expanded universe, but we've got Vos, Black Sun, Coruscant, and most importantly to this discussion about Travis's, Death Watch in a portrayal that heartens back to the comics as opposed to the books. And I really like the TCW mandos better than Travis's. They seem somewhat more complex and diverse in TCW than the "third edge to the galaxy" we got in the RC novels.
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  17. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    Color me a traitor, but I'm buying what he's selling.
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  18. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    I think you made that clear last time you pranced into the Mandalorian Fanclub thread.
  19. credar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 18, 2011
    star 3
    This debate:

    [IMG]

    I personally like the fact that it's left ambiguous. It's left sort of a cliffhanger of sorts for TCW. Will Rex and all the other clones with personalities kill their masters? Are they loyal to the Republic enough to kill on an order? Are they under the influence of Palpatine? Will they question the order? Did some of the clones just not get under Palpatine's influence (thus the questioning in Order 66 while still having the brainwashing)?

    I find it an interesting debate that will lead to a great reveal and series finale of The Clone Wars, whenever that is.

    Only then can we truly see if Karen or Witwer is right. Until then, I have my personal opinions and theories, but no need for me to argue for or against them.
    Last edited by credar, Jan 27, 2013
  20. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    Me or godisawesome?
  21. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    Back on the Temp forum, didn't you pop in once? I might be remembering wrong, or maybe both of you hopped in at one point. All I remember was that the Lit and EUC boards had been merged, leading to a forum customs issue of what was and wasn't acceptable.
  22. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Now that, at least, isn't true at all. For all the things wrong with TFU II, Witwer's voice acting is extremely competent.

    He's also one of the more skilled voice actors on TCW... of course, the thing with TCW is that everyone, even the veterans, come off as either bland and lifeless, or over emotional and hammy. Bad directing would be my guess.
    Last edited by instantdeath, Jan 27, 2013
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  23. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    Glad to see I made an impression. [face_laugh]
    Can't remember, to be honest.
  24. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    YOU'VE TAKEN EVERYTHING FROM MEEEEEEEEE!
    Yeah, no, Witwer sounds like his balls are trapped in a vice when he does Starkiller's voice.
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  25. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    It has great dramatic potential, one way or another. Even more so if its Rex and Ahsoka of course.