Lit Sam Witwer "Karen Traviss, She Didn't Get Everything Right"

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Robimus, Jan 27, 2013.

  1. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    @SithStarSlayer If that is the case, I'm pretty sure he threw up by now.

    That simplistic approach connects well with the amount of watered down stories TCW shows.
    Last edited by GGrievous, Jan 28, 2013
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  2. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    Yes, and that was one of the most ridiculous elements of the Wraith Squadron trilogy.

    Thank you for reminding me why I haven't bought any of Allston's books since Fury.
  3. credar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 18, 2011
    star 3
    Because, you know, that arc about a jedi and his clones choosing to follow his dark orders or not about killing their own because they didnt follow orders, that's squeaky clean! And that time a clone was a traitor and blew up a base, pssh.

    On a more serious note, it could just be the fact that the republic was actually good. Palpatine was buying his time. He had a republic that got many systems and warriors from the war. He was playing the savior card until it was time to reorganize into an empire.

    I'm surprised at all TCW hate on here. I think it's a great show!
    Last edited by credar, Jan 28, 2013
  4. Robimus Force Ghost

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    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Is there anything going on in that person's mind though? If there is no emotion, no reasoning, nothing but accomplishing the task at hand(as shown in Jack's ROTS quote) - then what is left to examine? What story is left to tell?
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  5. rumsmuggler Chosen One

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    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    He might be...
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  6. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 12, 2012
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    I honestly think that Karen Traviss was good in her first book. Four commandos rescuing a Jedi, great plot great story. But it went downhill from there. It became more about Mandos then about clones, more about every clone getting a girlfriend or wife.That was my biggest problem. I digress. I think with when it comes to Order 66, it is best to assume all clones executed the command. Traviss creates herself a loop hole saying the commandos were defective and couldn't be taught like the rest of clones and hers had to learn from a teacher (Skrita).

    But who else can issue order numbers? Could Yoda or Mace just beaten Palpatine to the punch and issued the order? I think it was like Order 65 or Order 67? I mean yeah they probably would have save for the fact that all the Jedi had to die and this was the quickest and easiest way to get them out of the picture before EP IV
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  7. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Luceno's Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader said otherwise. I think well before the novel Order 66 came out.
  8. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 12, 2012
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    True but Traviss clones do have an "out" as they weren't insta taught they were trained.
  9. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Technically most clones were trained- only the "Spartii clones" were insta-taught.
  10. credar Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 18, 2011
    star 3
    Wow. I really came off as an ass here. Didn't mean to. Sorry.
  11. darthcaedus1138 Force Ghost

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    Oct 13, 2007
    star 5
    Order 66 is most likely a take off of Executive Order 1066, which imprisoned many Japanese and Asian-Americans after the attack on Pearl Harbor.

    As for the effect on the Order....While I'd prefer the 'It's just one of many Orders in the Republic handbook, and they'd execute this one just as easily as they would destroying a battle droid', Witwer does bring up a rather interesting point as to Cody saying 'My Lord'. That has rather sinister and Sithly connotations that you wouldn't see as a normal military structure. If he had said 'Supreme Commander' or something of the like, we wouldn't be talking about this so....interesting.

    Especially since GL seems to disagree with Witwer, but we all know that could have changed.
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  12. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Given that Padme's always addressed as "My Lady" (or Milady) this might not be as important as all that.
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  13. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    Nah. Just switch off the quote alert thing. Then you can fire and forget.

    It's great.
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  14. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

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    considering it seems like every planet is ruled by a king in Star Wars' Republic, my lord might just be courtesy. Why all the monarchies in a democratic republic?
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  15. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    Because everything's better with princesses.
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  16. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Because "democracy" is only guaranteed at the top level, maybe. The Supreme Chancellor is democratically elected from the ranks of the Senators- but the Senators aren't always elected, nor are the planetary rulers.

    Despite the name, it's more like a confederacy than a republic- each planet is very autonomous, with its own way of determining its ruler.

    The European Union might be a closer parallel than the USA.
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  17. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

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    Like a "confederacy" of independent systems?
  18. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Yup. Which is rather amusing.
  19. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

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    I suppose if your government is run by Saruman, then it casts a bad light on the rest of the states.
  20. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
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    In Star Wars on Trial, it's Ryan Kaufman's account of how the Jedi are OK with using clones, that makes her decide that they cannot be good guys:

    "Let me get this clear," I said. "Somebody creates a secret clone army. Then they manuever the Jedi into using them to fight the Separatists."
    "That's right," said Ryan.
    "So...." My journalist brain was whirring. I had no preconceived happy notions about Jedi. I was new in town. "This is a slave army. They're bred to age at double the rate and die young. They have no choice. And the Jedi just take them and use them as cannon fodder? No questions asked? No big moral debate?"
    "You got it," said Ryan.
    I was outraged. "And these are the good guys?"
    That was the exact moment when Star Wars moved from being a nice little earner into something I really, really wanted to write.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Jan 28, 2013
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  21. beccatoria Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2006
    star 4
    I'm not sure it's much better if the alternative is that after years of fighting alongside a trusted comrade, after years of development to establish that you are not simply a mindlessly obedient copy, you still follow your orders so unthinkingly you will unhesitatingly shoot that comrade in the back.

    I'm not sure that that goes all that far in the argument that they're more than just droids either. Because ultimately, they're still succumbing to programming - whether it's an inability to disobey orders in general, or an inability to disobey specific triggering orders.

    I'm not sure what my preference is. There's something compelling to me about getting inside the head of a thinking, independent individual, who nonetheless has an engineered, biological predisposition towards absolute obedience to the chain of command. It's a very scifi concept, but also a tragic and horrifying one.

    Given the choice of being created with such painful and global limitations on your free will, or being created with a few specific conditions that will limit your free will in a few specific ways, I honestly think the latter is kinder and less dehumanising.

    I'm not sure whether it's more dramatically interesting.

    Give me my pizza roll.
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  22. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    @Ulicus might think that @Ulicus can ignore alerts directed at @Ulicus because @Ulicus has disabled the alert system on @Ulicus's profile, but I'm sure if @Ulicus is alerted by everyone tagging @Ulicus enough times that the board's code will be broken and @Ulicus will be forced to receive quotes about @Ulicus even though @Ulicus thought he could avoid @Ulicus tags.
    Last edited by Zorrixor, Jan 28, 2013
  23. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    I just really like the idea of everything coming to a head with one command. All the relationships that have been developed, the bond between commander and footsoldier, everything coming down to one order. Do you put your loyalty to the republic above your loyalty to your friends? Far more compelling than the trigger mechanism in their brain approach.
  24. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    Assuming they do actually tell an Order 66 story--which isn't completely guaranteed, let's keep in mind--I think the entire point of the Umbara arc was getting Rex to a point where the audience could buy that he'd do it. Whether he'd actually take down Ahsoka specifically is another matter, but I think he's definitely leaning in an anti-Order direction by this point. That said, provided they do ultimately get into the subject, I don't think TCW could help itself but to tell some manner of order rejection story. It's too meaty, and they've spent too much time developing the clones to not do it.
  25. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    And surely the likeness to the number of the beast in the Bible, aren't accidental either.

    This is a very interesting quote - and it seems to point out that KT was a woman with a mission. A mission I at least here must say I sympathizise with! But it also hit the nail as to how much realism you can squeeze into a fairytale - as others have been pointing out already. Fact is, that in war there are never any purely good guys, at least if you look with civilian glasses. Fact it on the other hand - that we still need good guys - also in war tales - and SW is a proof of that.At least TCW brings up the huge questions even for a young audience.

    Another thing completely, is that I wonder why Travis disapproval of the Jedi, carried over the purge to the new order too? It was, after all, started on quite different premises.