Lit Sam Witwer "Karen Traviss, She Didn't Get Everything Right"

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Robimus, Jan 27, 2013.

  1. DARTH_MU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2005
    star 4
    Actually, with civilian glasses there can also be good guys. it depends on which side said civilian is on. The military of the side of the civilians is always the good guys, unless of course the 'civilians' are actually collaborators working for the enemy.
    e.g. In WW2, the Japanese civilians think the Japanese are the good guys, while the American civilians think the US are the good guys.

    The problem is in recent SW EU, they introduced relative morality so we civilians do not even know which side we are on.

    The problem with Traviss is that she always introduce these Jedi padawans and make them betray the Jedi Order.
    I mean, c'mon, I haven't read the book 501st, but from the wookieepedia article it sounds like those bands of Jedi would have escaped Coruscant and survived head Etain Tur-Mukan not gotten in the way.
    And she got killed for her stupidity.
    The_Forgotten_Jedi and Esg like this.
  2. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    To be fair the guardians of truth and Justice did not exactly seem to care to much about the oppression of slavery either so for for the Jedi that's not exactly a huge stretch.

    As for not being the good guys they are not exactly the clever guys either.Look at what Information they had when they first found the Clones.
    They know that the Clones were built supposedly by the request of the Jedi Council which they know (after much deliberation) they did not request. They know the Jedi Master who supposedly made the request on behalf of the council has been dead for the same amount of time which was also the time that the Sith popped up.They know that someone erased the Planet where the Clones are being created from there archives, so they would not be aware of them. They know that there had been two Assassination attempts against the Senator opposed to the Military creation act, which would allow this conveniently ready made Army to be used. Yet inspite of all this, that they do know, Yoda will go get the Clones and start a galactic civil war!
    Last edited by fett 4, Jan 28, 2013
  3. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4

    I prefer to think of it as the logical progression of a war that's run by disorganised hippies :)
    _Catherine_ likes this.
  4. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    Weed this is, good for the brain it is. Try some, you must, green your skin turn, like me!
  5. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    I always bought the mental trigger idea given how that clone commander went from all chummy with Obi-Wan to "blow him away" in one second. According to the novel Order 66, though, I think it meant that the Mandos were ordered to get married and hang around the big Mando house.
  6. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    Yeah, while I've actually never minded the brainwashing explanation, as I think it has its own creepy cool factor to it, I agree with you that if they were to do an Order 66 episode in TCW, brainwashing will be more tricky to pull off the "drama" if Rex just turns into a robot all of a sudden because someone pressed the "reset" button in his brain, compared to if they showed him struggling with the decision.

    It worked fine in ROTS for different reasons, because we weren't close to any of them, they were always these faceless stormtroopers to the audience, and we knew all along it was just a matter of "when", so keeping the audience at a distance made it work. But since TCW has gone for a different kind of story that's more character driven, they might find they need to be a bit different.
    Last edited by Zorrixor, Jan 28, 2013
  7. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Sod it. I don't care what he says - my mild man-crush on Sam overrides other concerns.

    But bless him, either way.
  8. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    Even when he's saying JUNO! again and again and again? Hard to avoid that. :p
  9. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    I remember an episode of TCW(brain worms arc) where some of the infected clones were trying to kill Ahsoka and Barriss, and one of the clones said "we know how to take care of Jedi ". I'm surprised the series overlooked that so far, but it stood out like a sore thumb to me.
  10. Danzo Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2012
    star 1
    Despite being a bit of a Traviss fan and enjoying most of her work, I wish her reaction to this had been to really explore the Jedi having that big moral debate and using it as a reason for some of the Clones to be less quick to kill their commanders, rather than a few Jedi leaving the Order.
  11. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    I hated that line when it first aired. You couldn't be more on the nose unless you had Anakin force choking someone while the Imperial march played.
    Oh wait, that was in the same episode...
    Last edited by Darth_Zandalor, Jan 28, 2013
  12. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1999
    star 6
    I officially declare that joke to be concluded.
    Zorrixor likes this.
  13. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Good. It was spoiling my man-crush.
    Sable_Hart likes this.
  14. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    One band of 3 Jedi. Who had already killed several civilians at that point.
  15. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Basically according to Traviss it was you need to fall in line and embrace a culture but not a religion. Even in her LotF, Jaina wasn't worth a grain of salt until she trained with Boba freaking Fett, then it was all good. Jaina was a good Jedi since she had Mando training. Such a shoe horned plot just so she could have a Fett love fest and even bring Justik and Venku into the fold...

    Speaking of children of PT Jedi, when ever happened to Quinlan Vos or his son? I feel like Vos's son would have found Luke's order by now assuming he survived the purge
  16. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    That name no longer has any meaning for me!

    Seriously. The word makes no sense any more. Curse you.
    Zorrixor, RC-1991 and Kyris Cavisek like this.
  17. godisawesome Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2010
    star 1
    I always felt that the RC novels ignored a few of the best angles of the clone army/slave army ordered by a Sith Lord and commanded by Jedi thing. One of the early issues of the Republic comics had a good deal of the Jedi refusing to take up arms at all, including K'Kruhk, at least in part because of the whole involuntary warriors thing. It's made clear that most of the clones actually look down on the whole idea of not fighting; Cut Laquayne and the one Arc Trooper from the RC book are some of an extremely rare number of troopers who actually reject the idea of fighting altogether. And it's implied that one of the big reasons why the clones are so committed to the army is because it's part of their Mandalorian descended culture. The Jedi back Kal Skirata on each of his requests for more humanizing treatment of the clones and in TCW are asserted to be a major contributor to the clones' individuality. Yet the Jedi are portrayed as ignorant or accepting of the implications in the RC series, while at the same time Skirata's plan for freedom still ultimately leads to the boys being enlisted into a life of warfare at the orders of someone else.

    It's an excessively cynical and one sided representation that avoids some great scenarios that you could milk for drama and action while maintaining some realism. I figured that when the series reached Order 66, we' d get to analyze what would happen when a morally sound group of clones witnessed the death of a close commander at the hands of their brothers. We could have seen conflict and even the inevitable fate of those clones who recognized the Empire's darkness and turned against it. I was expecting emotional clone versus clone combat, and instead we got a storyline that went out of its way to give the obstentiously liberated Skirata clan a reason to follow the command by 1) having Jedi ruthless enough to kill civilians in their escape, 2) having a trained veteran Jedi go dumb enough to throw herself on a Jedi's lightsaber instead of doing anything else productive, 3) and then having our protagonists decide to just go ahead and kill the remaining Jedi, who it's still implied are padawans!

    I would have loved to read an Imperial Commando focusing on the more nuanced portrayal we got of Scout and Maze, but instead they were sidelined for a soap opera story with a start of darkness for Darman. There's some fanfiction stories that are about a 10th the length and timeline of one chapter in the series that I think handled the clones' reaction to the Order in a deeper and more meaningful way.

    Also, I'm wondering if Palpatine might be trying to manipulate the war so more loyal and developed clones die at the hands of the Seperatists. Maybe Dogma is more representative of our clones while Rex and Fives are more abnormal? And I figure the clones most likely to be featured in a Order 66 episode are those two, and you can make an argument for either ignoring it. They both show a willingness to ignore stupid orders, and Rex is a more naturally independent clone whereas Fives earned his individuality. I believe one was constructed to be the opposite of the other, and it'll be fun to see which one.
    Esg likes this.
  18. Karohalva Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2008
    star 2
    Forgive my lack of clarity and allow me to elucidate with my characteristic pedantry. I am speaking of themes and theorems. I am given to understand that insofar as the dualistic absolutism of myth is concerned, Jedi are used as representative of an nonnegotiable precept of good. This is the light side of the Force. The light side is good, and this is the theorem of Star Wars. It is not a theory, which are disprovable, but a theorem, which is presupposition and downright tautological. Thematically, Traviss did well to recognize the absence of moral debate as being contrary to this theorem. However, rather than investigate a failure of the Jedi to manifest the light side, she gradually adopted as her theme the Jedi being synonymous with the light side, and thus subsequently rejected of the light side being the absolute precept of good. Witness her encouragement for characters living without the Force. If I may shamelessly borrow a joke by Terry Pratchett, then Traviss is an unbeliever in a world where the gods routinely break atheists' windows.
    rumsmuggler and CT-867-5309 like this.
  19. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    It's not like Traviss's characters were the only ones. Kreia also advocates that "Light is not Good".
  20. Team Padme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    I actually really liked her LOTF books (Well, Revelation was OK) and I think Traviss is really underrated. Sacrifice is a fantastic book and I'll admit I prefer much over books like Vector Prime.
  21. Karohalva Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2008
    star 2
    Importantly, Kreia loses and is ultimately portrayed as wrong, but since you mention it, a sentence I deleted in my post was: Frankly, Traviss is what Kreia wants to be when she grows up.
    Kyris Cavisek likes this.
  22. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Bloodlines was terrible, let's have Boba Fett pop up and hang out with Han. I just disliked her cast of characters. It dealt as much with Boba Fett's family, which I don't care about. Though I will give it to Ghes Orade. He was cool. If one new mando should pop up in the ST it should be him. Sacrafice was ok, it wasn't great. And her last one was basically the last Republic Commando novel.
  23. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Palpatine's been known to argue that there's nothing inherently moral, or immoral, about the light and the dark side- and that imposing human concepts such as morality on the Force is a mistake.

    In The Wrath of Darth Maul, p40:
    "And rather than embrace the full spectrum of the Force, the Jedi ignored the infinite shades of gray that stretched between light and darkness. They declared the light side of the Force was good and the dark was evil. To them there could be no in-between, no middle ground." Sidious let out an exasperated sigh. "It's one thing to examine an energy field that permeates the galaxy. But to give such a field characteristics of good and evil? One might as well say 'That cloud wants to protect is from solar radiation, but that other cloud wants to strike us dead with lightning'"


    Vergere said similar things (about the Force being "one") in Traitor.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Jan 28, 2013
  24. DARTH_MU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2005
    star 4
    Their arguments are pretty logical.
    I don't know what's going on exactly with the dark side, but everyone who uses it wants the galaxy to obey them. hm...
  25. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    I think that is the taint of the darkside. Much like wheel of time, the dark side of the force is tainted the more you use it the more you want to control others.