PT (Satire) I've seen the light: how the haters convinced me to reject the PT, SE, and George Lucas!

Actually I think people *do* know why they dislike something. It can be articulating/conveying the particulars that is difficult. It doesn't help that most that disagree merely jeer and attack rather than listening and accepting difference. I am glad you are one of the few, Poet.

 

You have too much faith in people, then. A lot of folks here don't even tl;dr.

 

I can never have too much faith.

 

I don't think many "jeer and attack" other opinions - I think most counter an opinion with their opinion and/or with what they feel is supporting evidence. Disagreement is not jeering and attacking. (Yes, *some* do, no doubt but the mere fact of disagreeing is not akin to attacking.)

 

I guess we don't run into the same people. The one I run into must be younger, with an informed opinion that this or that is good, this or that is bad...

 

I didn't say it was, VS but yes it is quite common.

 

You know what would be really funny...is if this thread turned into the very thing it was satirically making fun of. Then circle of irony would be com-plete.

 

I don't know, I'm a libertarian / usually vote republican, I still thought it was hilarious! Not to be political but Bush wasn't our finest president even as a republican. There are good democrats (Bill Clinton) and good republicans, and bad ones of each, and frankly Bush and Obama have both sucked pretty badly. It's not all about political parties, sometimes it's just about goals and accomplishments and the way you lead.

Anyway, funny post, I thought.

The one thing that has most caught my attention because I wish that somehow it could be studied -- because I'm legitimately curious from a psychological perspective -- is the whole "prequel trilogy" versus "original trilogy" thing that has developed.

By all means, if anyone here has a theory, please let me know and explain it to me. What I mean to say is, let's just accept for a minute that TPM and AOTC were not as well received as us fans hoped. For the record in my comment, I consider the six Star Wars films to be the greatest movies of all time, so I'm not part of that group. TPM and AOTC are amazing to me and I cannot start to list all of the reasons I love them because I'd be here all night. But let me just accept for a minute, for the sake of argument, that because they both received about 60% positive reviews and not as strong of fan support compared to, say, ESB, that they are subpar Star Wars movies. Here's my problem, though. How did ROTS get lumped into the whole "the prequels sucked" thing? I literally never heard even one person in 2005 say that ROTS sucked. Everyone was like holy cow, FINALLY, a great Star Wars movie, or the people like me who loved the prequels said, "Wow, that was amazing, that was the best one yet!" Everyone was so busy raving about the film I thought, wow, this is so neat!!!

I never thought we'd get a universally acclaimed Star Wars film again, after the whole TPM and AOTC stuff where it split the fan base. Then came ROTS and everyone, even on here, was saying how, wow, yeah you know what? That really was a great film. The critics called it "a masterpiece" and "the best of the bunch" or at worst "the best Star Wars film since The Empire Strikes Back" in 3.5 and 4 star reviews, A- and A reviews, etc. There was absolutely no doubt, no fighting, and no arguments about this film. Everyone said it was amazing.

Fast forward to today, ten years later, and it seems like all I hear about in the media is, "The prequels were hugely disappointing for everyone and fans are hoping for a return to glory from the Disney team" or whatever. I'm confused, what is going on here? What is this VERY weird phenomenon that I'm witnessing where a film that literally everyone loved (yes, even the people who today said they didn't like it, they weren't singing that tune 10 years ago -- did they not see it in the last 10 years and somehow forget how good it was?!) is somehow a film that everyone hated. I just don't get this? It surely must be one of the strangest things to happen to a movie in the history of film. There have definitely been some movies that didn't get good reviews when they came out (Blade Runner), but later became huge hits and everyone loved them. I just don't recall a film where everyone loved it and thought it was an amazing movie, literally a masterpiece, and then somehow it goes from that to "one of the biggest piles of bantha poodoo imaginable." Nobody actually thinks that, which is my huge problem with this situation. NOBODY really believes that, I am sorry, they don't. Maybe the media has brainwashed them into feeling that way and maybe they truly didn't like TPM or AOTC, but we all saw ROTS back in 2005 and we all loved it.

What gives?!

 

It's funny but when ROTS came out, my sister (to whom I must give most of the credit for coming up with this gag- I merely refined it.) had a funny riff based on the movie.( Well, funny if you're a Republican, I guess.) Given the nature of this thread, I can't think of a better place to post it.

Anakin: "I should've known there were no WMD's in Iraq!"

Obi-Wan: "Anakin,Saddam Hussein was evil!""

Anakin: "From my point of view George W Bush is evil!"

Obi-Wan: "Well, then you are lost!"

 

I'm glad you appreciated my satire! I've just been out weeding my yard, so as I cool down from the 100 degree heat index, I'll give my thoughts on the "fall of ROTS" and it's possible rise once more.

I think the real issue is who you're talking about here. I think film fans and Star Wars fans in general like ROTS. That's why it has a very high imdb rating and that's why it's 2nd to TESB in a Starwars.com "favorite Star Wars film" poll. Those types of things show that people still like ROTS.

It's really when you start reading online articles that ROTS starts taking a beating, and so, I think you have to look at who comprise this group of people. In general, people writing for these sites are mostly film school grads and people who were exposed to the OT when they were kids, but were adults when they saw the PT.

So, let's look at these groups. Consider film school grads. Anyone who has met a film school grad knows that one of the best things film school prepares its students for is to hate movies. 1st, film school grads gain a critical eye towards films. 2nd, they develop a great jealousy towards other film-makers: "I can do better than that, if they'd only give me the chance!!!!" So, film school grads love to take directors down a peg. GL is not their only target. Nolan is now getting the film school backlash because The Dark Knight Rises has a lot of plot holes and because many thought that Interstellar did not live up to his former films. These films are still beloved with the general public, but I'm guessing that at NYU or USC, you'd get a lot of criticism if you expressed unequivocal admiration for these films.

Then, you have those who grew up on the OT, and who think it's a flawless wonder. (Sorry, to ruin your day, guys, but these films are not flawless. They've only become unassailable more recently; people once complained about ROTJ's flaws quite specifically.) I have friends who are in their 60's and 70's, and none of them think that the OT is phenomenal or are "into" Star Wars. They think they are good fun films, but they don't think they are God's gift to cinema. The reason why most people love those films so much is that they were exposed to the films as kids. I'm certainly not saying that that's the only reason people appreciate the OT. You can have something aimed primarily at kids, like "The Grinch" cartoon, that adults can appreciate, or you can something like the stop-motion "Rudolph" movies, that only work for kids, but would be terrible if you watched them for the 1st time as an adult. (Yes, it would be terrible. I've tested it on others.) I'm not even saying that the OT was only meant for kids, though GL's primary intention was creating a new mythology for children and teenagers. I would really define them as family films. I'm drifting off topic, so at any rate, I simply think that this group of OT-lovers were expecting to get the same thrill from the PT that they got from the OT, and this was just impossible because they're not kids any more. (Some OT-fans even wanted a PT that was grittier than the OT; basically a PT just for them; screw the next generation.)

It was also at this time that this group of die-hard OT fans also started to give GL extra hate because they were then realizing that they would never be getting the O-O-T on DVD/blu-ray. The SE had become Lucasfilm's only accepted version. I think this group of fans got so resentful after what they felt were 2 sub-par prequel films and the SE situation, that when ROTS came out they were primed to hate it. They had already been "forced" to watch 2 films that could never recreate the experience they had when kids, (and to be fair, I think the 1st 2 PT films don't work as well as the OT films, but they still have pretty decent IMDb ratings). These fans felt that they had been burnt twice before; they also went into ROTS not liking Anakin or caring about his relationship with Padme because of their depictions in ATOC, not giving Anakin the benefit of the doubt that he could've matured between the films. I knew some Star Wars fans around the time of ROTS's release who were bashing it even though they refused to see it. Basically, for these fans, the well had already been poisoned.

Now, I'm certainly lumping people into categories here, but I'm just talking about general trends among a sub-set of fans. Of course, not everyone fits in here, but this is what is important: A large group of these people (film school grads and jilted OT lovers) ended up writing for Internet film fan sites. Like with any group of people, consensus opinions formed. This happens in every organization. (Think environmental or political groups.) The organization comes to a consensus, and almost always, the more extreme, angry, louder voices win out. Some people's positive opinions of ROTS probably became more negative through groupthink, and other ROTS-likers just chose to stay quiet or not write about it. So, mostly all of the articles that came out from screenrant, slashfilm, cinemablend, etc. ended up being very anti-PT; plus, these different sites all wanted to seem hip, so why would screenrant write up a very positive article about ROTS when cineblend and slashfilm and all the rest would just mock that article as a way to seem hipper and more "with it"? And why would someone at one of these websites stick up for ROTS when their colleagues would deride them, other websites would criticize them, and the posters on those sites (influenced by the content of the sites themselves) would mock pro-ROTS articles? Basically, a new narrative had been established for Star Wars history. ROTJ was now not the black sheep; ROTS was now not the return to glory; the OT was great, and the PT and the SE-changes were a joke.

It also doesn't seem like these things are set in stone either. Just look at the comments section below TFA trailer. There's virtually no PT-bashing at all, and with those few posts, as many people stick up for the PT as those who knock it. Mostly, the comments are about TFA trailer itself or about general topics related to Star Wars. 5 years ago that wouldn't have been the case. If you go to the trailer for ROTS or a scene from ROTS posted on youtube, you'll notice that the comments below are almost all positive, with many fans including lists that place ROTS as their favorite Star Wars film or near the top of their lists. Again, that wouldn't have been the case 5 years ago. Part of this, I think, has to do with timing. Kids who loved ROTS are just becoming adults (20 to 25-year-olds), and they don't seem willing let to something beloved from their childhood get trashed.

My bet is that the general consensus about Star Wars films is going to change even more over time. Just as ROTJ escaped from being the black sheep, it seems that ROTS is rising once more (as the recent "favorite Star Wars film" poll at SW.com suggests). How successful the TFA is will probably also factor into this re-evaluation in one way or another as well.

 

That's classic. Just imagine what we could do with other current figures' names.

 

I look forward to the day when the PT and the OT will be loved equally. Until then, I will continue to indoctrinate all children I meet in the ways of the PT-fan!

 

Might not be completely related to your post, but I'd just like to say that I see an increasing use of the quote "Execute Order 66." Maybe that's only me, but just today I've seen this phrase used in three completely different (non-SW) contexts and with positive connotations. Some people say that the prequels don't have quotable lines, but I see them very often and increasingly so.

Granted, there are still a lot of negative ones floating around ("I don't like sand"), but there are also a lot of positive ones being used in many, many contexts. And Order 66 especially seems very popular.

 

Because there's nothing our progressive and essentially good human race loves more than complete annihilation!

 

The original post of this thread is one of the best ever to be seen on theforce.net . . . in my opinion. Pure genius.

 

Yes. We need more like it.

 

Watched the documentary - there was no "vitriolic anger" anywhere. That's just how you perceive any dissenting opinion.
There was some bit where they asked some kid if he loved Jar Jar or whatever, and the adult that was present or something made an amused remark about how children are less cynical - not sure if that's what you're referring to.

-some say they were superficially excited back then, but then "realized" that it was only because "it had the purge and Vader" but actually was "horribly made".
-some can't get over the continuity problems, unable to differentiate between bad and inconsistent - or have "realized" them since
-those who don't like the acting and dialogue style in the PT, who don't like the stoicism, the formulaic literalism, the occasional lesser performances and lump it all togethre as "bad", still see no difference in ROTS

Partially, you've just missed the negative responses even back then; partially, some have accepted the idea that they've "got smarter", and now there's a shift back apparently.

 

I carry a secret shame. The only reason I ever liked the prequels is because it kept women and minorities in their damn place where they belong. (Satire)

 

(edit limit expired)

And now about how ROTJ started the downfall.

Whenever I hear people say "OT had flaws" and then only name ROTJ, I just laugh cause that's like a cop out.

If ROTJ was considered to be the black sheep, why was EpI anticipated so eagerly, rather than, like now, as a redemption?
Wasn't the prevailing attitude was it.

Hmm... 1980-2015 = 35 years, being in the 20s back then -> 55-60 now. So all your very old friends didn't get to see them as eager 20 year olds, not as kids
What, it became a huge hit and changed Hollywood cause a bunch of kids went see it? Come on.

It was a different time. People back then would've said joviality is for children, now people understand (again) that upbeat escapism is a HUMAN desire.

Ironic how, with the same mindset about "for children", he then actually went on to create a film more like Rudolph. (Well, some parts of it).

I'm not really a fan of calling any film that's appropriate for kids and adults "family film" - that carries such a schmaltzy do-gooder connotation that it doesn't really fit SW.
Home Alone is a family film.

I've yet to read your "satire", but with these tired cliches being your real opinions I've got a bad feeling tbh.

Impossible because they weren't kids? Wrong - certain childish things you grow out of and don't enjoy anymore, but the ability to have intense, transcendental experiences from epic fantasy doesn't wane.
Resorting to this explanation = being clueless about any criticism ever made about these movies, valid or invalid, or in fact just their stylistic differences to the OT.

PT just for them screw the next generation?? "Oh those meanieheads, don't think of the kids who just want fluffy bunnies", really? Really, that's what you're going with?
Well, congratulations - Revenge WAS grittier.
And since the first thing in Star Wars that was made for kids was the Ewoks, and the kids that watched ANH already might have some problems with those, expecting the new ones to be for kids, "at the expense of the grown-ups", is just laughable - plus, who said they had to be for the new generation? How about for the old generation, is that a less valid approach?

And with all those politics and serious acting, more than 1/2 of those movies seemed to go with that one.

Or redesigned.

Yea I agree, even those who've watched it imprint what they saw in AOTC onto ROTS.

Again this "from their childhood" nonsense - it's not like teenagers and tweens like to rebel against their own childhood or anything.
While this may be a partial factor, there are several more:
-rennaissance: those who liked it, then went along with the backlash, may have remembered why they liked them back then
-new optimism: Disney bought it, they're release OOT, go back to the roots etc.
-hate burnout: climaxed with RLM, it became the status quo and boring; the circle jerk posting style of a lot of those people have the power to drive away less devoted followers
-natural group dynamics / new leader emerges: someone like BM or AD published a charismatic perspective with a more positive outlook, and people went along with it

Where were all those kids who loved the movies back then, you think they got no internet?

 

(again)

My worst fears confirmed.

Enjoyment can come from what's on the screen, or your own projection on it, or it can be forced out of the desire for the movie to be good.
A lot of them say they've been denying it and now started being honest with themselves - stopped inflating the good bits and diinishing the bad, now seeing the true proportions.

That concept in itself is just typical for humans - however, the irony in those cases is that what they think is the new-found truth is actually just a new ideology, as distorted, and as artificial.
Some of course your description applies to

Their own dissonant feelings?

Oh, okay.

McDiarmid is generally considered to be an exception, except for his most OTT parts - Neeson is sometimes considered underused or bored (there's some basis for that), McGregor too aristocratic/wooden (some basis for that as well).

Dismissed as blind praise; RotJ considered to be "the beginning of the fall, but still way above" - once again, an element of truth to both.

Considered to be pretentious, but not live up to its ambitions.
ROTS is really the only one this applies to, and I don't know what "thematically compelling" means.

When they already have reasons for thinking they're worse, this "it's bad cause it's new" kinda has no part in it - and what this has to do specifically with "new is better", is beyond me.

They tend to perceive changes in style and continuity as automatically bad, but that's not what your remark is addressing....
.

Not sure about Cinderella, who looked hawt on the posters, but all those movies are "childish" in a way that the OT (-Ewoks) isn't even hinted at being - and in a "better" / more adult-suiting way than Phantom Menace or Care Bears.

Lion King and Mermaid might be the least childish of those.

So yea, your point about death make sense, but tone-deafness only goes so far.

The tone-deafness is through the roof.
You really think people thought Jar Jar was childish because it was comedy? Really?
Bickering in the desert = awawawawawawahhh, ooooh oohhh oohhh ploof?

Actually, Luke won without their help.
Anyways, yea, P-basher who likes the Ewoks = rare occurrence. However, they are considered to be better and less childish than Jar Jar... with very good reason.

Not everyone's a parent of 5 year olds, pal.
Plenty of movies not relying on such "vicarious" enoyment, including IV, V and III.

Wow - clever satire from an equally cunning linguist.

A lot of people hate being reminded of their childhood, if it was that corny.

Some tastes are such that... ah whatever. Nah, not going into that.

Ah, you fell for the "Jedi in their prime" argument.

Of course the Lucas bashers have no point there, or anything.

The satire's missing from this sentence...

Um, aren't you people more cynical about TFA?

Dude.... they're welcoming that move.

Pick your narrative - that is all.

They've only been working on this for 1 year? K...

Now you're coming around

No, that's what you people complain about, "ohhh the originals had bad dialogue too".

You're losing 'em now.

You've lost the thread, buddy.

You means the ones that praise the OT?

Salt doesn't mix well with satire - that is all.

 

Why did lil Georgie have to crush my dreams by selling plushes of fuzzy, vicious cannibalistic natives? I was so cool, liking Star Wars in 1982, then all the sudden, the chicks thought I was a loser, all because of those damn Ewoks. Never again. WHY GEORGE, WHY!!?!??

 

I remember some folks accusing Kevin Smith of being a "sellout" to Lucasfilm for actually liking all of the prequels. As if Lucasfilm was some kind of a multinational conglomerate giant like Disney back in the day. I've listened to a few of his podcasts. He's, of course, a geek and is lenient towards various franchises but he doesn't mince words when he doesn't like something. He also predicted that TPM would be bashed hard, and he was right.

 

Boring...

 

Thanks, I appreciate the critique. Doing a line-by-line dissection of piece of humor on a Star Wars forum seems to be very productive use of time. Since you did such a wonderful job analyzing this work of satire, I think you'd be doing a great service to us all if you dissected these other satiric posts that I've made as well:

Why Greedo really missed: the Physiology of the Compound Eye
http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...-the-physiology-of-the-compound-eye.50023489/

Here's how it begins:

Or this one: A Subtextual Analysis of Anakin's Creation -- Subverting the Trope of the Hetero-Heroic Lineage ( http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...pe-of-hetero-heroic-lineage-in-film.50021909/ )

Or this one: Microsoft Word has an Anti-Prequel Bias (http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...-can-a-subtle-anti-pt-bias-be-found.50020197/ )

Or this one: Does Rubber Offer You Any Protection from Force Lightning (http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...-does-rubber-provide-any-protection.50012255/ )

Or this one: http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...hildhood-ruined-everything-ruined-1.50025709/


Thanks in advance! I know you'll be providing some incredibly useful input as you have here, and new revisions will be on the way!

 

You are so right! Those so-called Star Wars "fans" only care about themselves. They claim to "enjoy" the prequels and don't see or ignore all the damage done by them. They do not see how badly the prequels have corrupted society as a whole. As if SW was meant to be merely "enjoyed", or worse, "just movies". It is up to us true fans to correct these mistakes and expose all the lies. It is hard to believe to what lengths those PT "fans" go to drag down SW. I keep coming across their hate comments on countless sites on the internet. One said "I quite enjoyed TPM and found it was not as bad as I expected", another "ESB is not flawless and may possibly not be the best movie ever made", another went as far as to claim Hayden Christensen to be a decent actor and "not that bad" in the role of Anakin, while yet another wrote the lightsaber duels in ROTS were "pretty exciting and well executed". No need to continue, the "arguments" are all the same, the hate just goes on and on. Will prequel fans stop at nothing? Do they have no self-respect, consideration for others, morals, sense of decency or VALUES? These people are radicals, fanatics! This generation just sickens me. They have no idea what it is like to be a real fan. They live in a world where the Star Wars name is used for disgusting trash like those prequels instead of only the masterpieces we knew back then. Back then we knew what was good and what wasn't. We had only the REAL SW then, nothing to confuse us. Nowadays people mix up the fake with the real SW, see them all as part of the story, have Darth Maul or Anakin action figures right along with heroes such as Greedo, Walrus Man and Boba Fett. As if those were even in the same universe! To me those new "fans" are not so much evil as confused. They don't know any better. We should reeducate them instead of blame them.

Man, you are a much better father than I could ever hope to be! I have a son myself but have failed him, completely. When he was little he played some SW games that had prequel characters in them, and I let him, I said and did nothing to stop him. But I have done even worse things. I'm ashamed to admit that I used to own all 3 prequel DVDs, and to make things worse, I'm guilty of watching them together with my son. They have been destroyed since of course, but I'm afraid the damage has already been done. Now my son is grown up, and doesn't care that much about SW anymore. Recently I tried to apologize for being such a bad father, but he said "Dad, don't worry about it, they are only movies, I really liked all of them but now I like other things". He COULD have been an OT purist had I been a stronger person. I was weak and failed to educate him.
This weird acceptance of the prequels among young kids seems to be a very common problem. You see this all the time. The other day I saw this kid wearing a Darth Maul t-shirt, and a young girl one with Padme on it, as if she had never even heard of Princess Leia. Ridiculous! I'm normally pretty easy-going about things like this but when I see that much of this kind of behavior it makes me angry. The way I see it someone has to do something about it. Their parents obviously can't be bothered with educating their children. Where were they when the kids played with prequel toys or watched the DVDs? Not doing their jobs, that's for sure. Of course the kids shouldn't be blamed. They are just used by Lucas. He is the one trying to undermine society's morals, he is mainly to blame. He and the prequel lovers are the ones always provoking us loyal fans with PT-propaganda. We would not be complaining if we were not constantly faced with PT-related material. Had he listened to the fans in the first place we would not have this kind of issue now. How hard was it really to please his loyal fans? All he had needed to do was get back all the original actors, tell the same story we like so much over again and we all would have been happy. We would not have minded the occasional spaceship design being slightly different, hairstyles and dialogs changing a little bit etc. We would still have complained of course, but in the end we would have accepted it and forgiven Lucas. But THIS? Who ever said he could completely replace all the characters and basically change everything we knew about SW? How did he think he could get away with using some new "ideas"? Nobody needed that. All we true fans wanted was more of the same SW, not new "ideas" and stories. Since Lucas was so determined to ignore our opinions he might at least have included more interesting characters instead of introducing new ones with ridiculous names. Back then we had really great names like Jabba, Wampa, Snaggletooth, Bossk or Greedo. Now all we have is "Padme", "Windu" and "Dexter". Where is the artistic value in that? The way I see it Lucas cheated us all. He owes us! We paid for the tickets back in the 70s and 80s because it was so much fun. 30 years later we again payed insane amounts of money so that we could have our childhood memories restored to us, NOT to see some silly new story so completely different from what we wanted. Would it have been THAT difficult to give us back our childhoods, George Lucas, really? You knew that and still chose to offend us. I hope some day there will be some way to make you legally responsible for all that emotional damage that you have done to us. It will be too late for us, but if there is any justice left at all loyal OT purists like myself can help make society better for our children and grandchildren, a world where the prequels never existed! That's the kind of world all of us would like to live in again.