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CT Scenes where you noticed more meaning over time

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Prequel_Rubbish, Jan 8, 2017.

  1. Prequel_Rubbish

    Prequel_Rubbish Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2014
    This has happened a lot over the years and still happens every once in awhile, but this weekend I was watching Empire Strikes Back. There is the scene where Yoda reveals himself to Luke inside his hut and Obi-Wan intervenes on Luke's behalf.

    I'm pretty sure my younger self actually thought this was a serious debate with Obi-Wan and Luke trying to convince Yoda to become Luke's teacher. I'm pretty sure I took Yoda's doubts and his exasperated sighs at face value, but at some point when I grew up I realized it was all kind of an act. Yoda was going to teach Luke no matter what...but Luke doesn't know that.

    I guess when I was younger I viewed the story through Luke's eyes, and the deeper meanings kind of flew over my head. I even thought his duel against Vader on Bespin was a real fight. After I'd seen the movie a hundred times of course I knew Luke lost, but in my mind he could have won, he just didn't. Only when I was older did I figure out that Luke had no chance of ever winning, that it wasn't even a fight. Vader was just going through the motions trying to get Luke to join him, and when he finally got annoyed and lost his patience, he chopped Luke's hand off and ended the fight.

    So yeah, what are some scenes like these from the OT that you remember experiencing and re-experiencing over the years?
     
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  2. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    Ditto for the last duel on DS2; when Luke was going berserk and driving Vader back, he left himself wide open several times. Vader could have easily won the fight with a quick thrust of his point, and I just figured that was bad choreography. Eventually I realized that Vader did not want to win that fight, at least not by killing Luke. Luke was right, Vader couldn't bring himself to kill his son, and he was holding himself back in that final exchange.
     
  3. xezene

    xezene Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2016
    Stuff that deepened for me over repeated viewings over the years:

    -- That moment in Empire Strikes Back where Luke says goodbye to Han on Hoth. They look at each other, smile, struggle for words, there's a beat, and they part. There's not many words exchanged. It's all in the acting, the eyes, pacing, direction. There's emotion conveyed with very little overtly expressed. Han and Luke mean a lot to each other at this point, and that small moment really points out how deep their friendship is. That's something not easily detectable in other scenes, but it's a moment of surprising sensitivity. It also lets us know that Han is in this for the long haul -- he cares about Luke, he cares about Leia, and this is part of his life now. He can try to run away from it, try to pretend he doesn't care, but we know the truth. If he does run, he'll be back.

    -- When Luke is wailing away with his saber on Vader in the last fight of ROTJ. I always knew this scene held meaning, ever since I was a child, but I think you could probably write an essay on that portion of the film, on how much it actually means. What has really deepened for me over the years is the raw pain and anguish, the raw despair, behind Luke's attack on Vader. I imagine in that moment for Luke it's: you were my father, you were never there for me, you took away the only family I had, you've screwed up everything for me, you killed my friend Biggs, you killed my teacher. But even deeper than that, we know Luke always imagined his father to be a great man, he thought about it, dreamed about it, looked up to him. With that, in those blows on Vader, it could also be an expression of the crushing pain and disappointment in his father, the pains of the child against the parent, that pain of disappointment. The pain of trying to live up to the image of a man, only to find out he sold his soul to the devil and probably had a hand in all the loneliness you felt alone on the farm, with no real dad or mom. So I see in that scene so much pain from within Luke, that was locked away for years, now being released against the source of the pain, and it must be horrible. Yet of course Luke realizes that this is a dead end, and regaining his composure, casts aside blame, regains faith in his father, but more importantly lives up to the man he is now. And we know how that story ends.

    -- Again, the burning of Vader's body. Must be a complicated moment for Luke. You can see it on Luke's face. The man who brought me the most suffering, but the closest thing I had to a familial connection that I helped bring back to goodness. A complicated scene, very deep.

    -- The Ewoks on ROTJ. Beyond the Vietnam and nature/tech parallels, there's a good portion that is Lucas flexing his anthropological interests. We see the culture of the Ewok tribes, it's fascinating, even a little subtext commentary going on there about religions and god-worship. Gets meta with Threepio telling the stories of SW -- passing on the ancient stories to the next generation. Super meta for what Lucas is doing with SW. It's all very interesting.

    -- Luke and Leia's talk. One of my favorite moments of the film. Luke realizing he may be less like his father, and more like his mother, and asking questions about that. Leia's vague answers. Luke's melancholy look. It's a soul searching scene, beautifully shot. It fits perfectly into the saga.

    -- The suffering of Obi-Wan Kenobi. Man this guy has been through the ringer. It goes without saying that every scene discussing Anakin is layered with extra meaning now thanks to the prequels.

    -- Same applies to Yoda. Yoda's arc is interesting. Going from a sprawling city-planet, with no vegetation to speak of, in ivory towers, to a mudhole with no cities and pure nature all around. I think that's purposeful and says a lot without being overt. Yoda takes a look at himself after ROTS and realizes he needs to get back to the basics, with Qui-Gon helping. Now those moments with Luke and Yoda on Dagobah are layered even more with the notion that this is Yoda at his most centered, after years of getting back to the heart of Jedi Zen.

    -- Yoda's death scene. I personally find it lovely that he simply dies. He just dies of old age. No battles, nothing like that. He just dies cause he's old. He accepts it. It's so rare in films these days to see stuff like that. It's kind of a spiritual scene, very human, and is great.

    -- The clothing of Luke evolving with the morality of the trilogy. First sandy white, then grey, then black. Yet we find, within that black costume [showing him accepting Vader and his own darkness], we find a white flap. Luke's inner purity all along.

    -- Vader saying it's too late for him. What a sad moment. We truly see in ROTS the tragedy of the man, and realize that Vader is a man trapped into a dead-end road. Perhaps he even knows going into the battle with Luke that he won't survive. He knows about the rule of 2. Since Luke won't join him against the Emperor, he knows Luke is too powerful, he knows the Emperor is just using him, he knows his days are numbered. He doesn't yet believe he can come back to the light, so there's only hopelessness. Very tragic scene.

    -- Finally, Vader's decision to save Luke. The lightning bouncing off his mask is reminiscent of a similar moment between Mace and Palpatine in ROTS. In that moment, I cannot imagine the extent of what's awakening and going on inside Vader. To see the last remnant of his wife Padme, of his old life, getting destroyed before him. Remembering all the wrong choices, realizing maybe there's another path. Luke's ability to prove the Jedi and Sith wrong, showing you can go dark and come back, believing that at the risk of his own life -- that's what Vader needed to hear. It must have been like, "Here's another chance, maybe I'm not hopeless after all." Such a powerful scene. Goes back to TPM, almost like a slave throwing off his shackles, realizing he can choose good for himself and for others. The core of Star Wars, gets to the heart of the quote in my sig below.
     
  4. starkiller1977

    starkiller1977 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2016
    Sometimes I wonder if the cave scene in ESB where Luke sees his own face in Vader's helmet was foreshadowing for Luke's eventual turn to the dark side and becoming Darth Vader ROTJ. Obviously this never happened, but George Lucas had contemplated ending the trilogy that way ("Now I am Vader").
     
  5. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    starkiller1977

    Up to this day I think this particular scene in ESB is an unrivalled masterpiece of ambiguity, because there are so many possible interpretations:
    • If Luke continues his present path he will become like Darth Vader and/or
    • Luke is still fighting himself and/or
    • Fighting Darth Vader will be Luke's demise and/or
    • There is a (yet) unrevealed connection between Luke and Darth Vader
     
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  6. Prequel_Rubbish

    Prequel_Rubbish Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2014
    I think this scene served a few purposes:

    1) From the simplest standpoint, it interjected a little action into the slower middle of the movie.

    2) It foreshadowed the path that Luke was possibly on. Yoda said Luke had much anger in him, like his father. Luke hated Vader with an intense passion because he saw him kill Obi-Wan and believed Vader killed his father. If you watch the scene closely, you will see that Luke does not fight Vader tactically or strategically, and does not use the force for knowledge and defense. The moment he sees the image of Vader, his first reaction is fear followed by rage. He looks deathly afraid for a second or two, and then he lashes out with violence, and just knocks the image's lightsaber out of the way and chops off its head.

    This served to warn Luke that if he channeled these dark-side emotions, he would become just like Vader himself.

    3) It also served to foreshadow the father/son dynamic between Luke and Darth Vader which would be shockingly revealed in the climax of the film.
     
  7. Bob the X-Winger

    Bob the X-Winger Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2016
    The scene in which Han goes out find Luke in the snow.
     
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  8. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    "There's too much of his father in him."
    "That's what I'm afraid of."
     
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  9. starkiller1977

    starkiller1977 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2016
    Lt. Hija
    Prequel_Rubbish

    I think your analyses are more likely to be correct, but I still do wonder about my own idea.
     
  10. Thom Skywalker

    Thom Skywalker Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 1, 2014

    In ROTJ when Luke talked to Ben about still having hope for Vader I, as a child, just had accepted that.

    ---

    Then, years later I began to see Luke's motivation as love (and mercy) for his father based on Vader not have killed him in Bespin.

    ---

    But now it means something bigger for me. Now I see Luke in a altruist/suicide mission. He was not bluffing to the Emperor when he said "soon I will die, and you're coming with me".

    It started when he was talking to Yoda. When the master said "not ready for the burden, were you", Luke seemed sad, not sorry. His mercy for Vader was growing, and he was becoming a TRUE Jedi, not because he had mastered the Force, nor because he had became wise. He was just being truly altruist, caring for Vader's soul.

    Later, talking to Ben, Luke couldn't accept the mission to defeat Vader. Ben got frustrated. For Luke it was not a mere Jedi vs Sith fight. Luke would save a soul.

    He was so sure he would die in the process that he went to Leia and confessed it all to her in order to prepare her to keep the fight against the Empire without him. That's funny because Leia, as Yoda and Ben did, tried to convince Luke to do something else. Nobody believed in Luke.

    So Luke went to Vader and, guess what, Vader himself also didn't believe Luke could save him. That was not the last non-believer: the Emperor assures him Vader would never go back to the Light Side.

    Luke wasn't trying to destroy the Emperor, nor defeat the Empire. Luke didn't want to survive at all. It was all about make Vader return to the Light before the Death Star exploded. The whole lightsaber duel was something he was trying to avoid at all. Luke was searching deep in Vader's soul for the "good" that just him and his mother had felt.

    The most ironic thing was that Yoda once told him he wouldn't need his weapons, and it was exactly by throwing his weapon away that set him in a position of vulnerability which started a chain reaction in Vader's mind which ends to be what saved Vader.

    When Vader saved Luke, Luke proved he was right to everyone of them: Yoda, Ben, Leia, Vader and the Emperor. That new interpretation of mine makes me consider this movie as a masterpiece.

    ---

    Now, imagine if GL's original idea of Anakin and Vader being 2 different characters weren't just Ben's point of view. Imagine Vader had really killed Luke's father. Then Luke trying to rescue Vader's soul would be much more altruist, of course. It's easier to try to bring your father back to the Light than your father's murderer. It would be like a real forgiveness....
     
  11. xezene

    xezene Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2016
    I see it this way too and I agree. :)

    ROTJ is laced with little moments like that. Moments of light within the dark, dark within the light. Rancor owner mourning his death, even though we should be pleased Luke defeated the Rancor. Ewok mourning the death of another ewok, even though they are supposed to be winning. And of course Vader/Anakin and Luke, the most complex of all. It's this idea, rarely found in movies today, a maturity -- everyone loves someone, everyone knows someone, even the bad guys we are fighting have souls, and even the good guys we are rooting for lose people they love. And sometimes there is no one to blame for that (ex: Yoda's death). I like this realness, most present in ROTJ of all the films. It's a maturity, and was continued in some ways in later books post-ROTJ. Ebert noted it in his review of the film. All these things underscore grander themes within ROTJ. It's a profound sensitivity -- a complex, mature, and compassionate take, and all of this is a small part of why I consider ROTJ my favorite of the SW films.
     
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  12. xezene

    xezene Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2016
    Also interesting that you mention this. Yeah. It's interesting that the Jedi always seem to try to goad Luke into opposing the Emperor. They always talk about the Emperor, they only talk about Vader when Luke asks about him.

    But Luke never shows an interest in destroying the Emperor. Not important to him. Not why he's there. He's there for his own soul and for his father's.

    The Jedi and the Emperor have this history together, and, you know, the Jedi might want to partly get back at the Emperor for destroying everything they had. It's the ancient Jedi vs. Sith thing. The Jedi must destroy the Sith; the Sith must destroy the Jedi. Almost like warring religious cults.

    But Luke wasn't raised in that. He basically gets the Greatest Hits of what the Jedi have to offer, and then he takes it in his own path (which is what should happen!). It's not as ideological for him, it's personal. And it's this personal touch, partly resembling his mother'***, but also with a hint of his father, that truly makes Luke go beyond the limited visions of even his wisest teachers.

    **- on that note, it's interesting that in some ways Luke resembles the personal, idealistic touch of Padme (and I would say Qui-Gon), when they were the heroes of TPM. Interesting bookends to the series -- similar heroic vision at the start and end of the saga.
     
  13. Negotiator1138

    Negotiator1138 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 23, 2016
    I gotta give this post shout out.

    As a kid, when Han says, "Then I'll see you in Hell, yah!" It is undoubtedly awesome. Any kid sees this figure Han as unstoppable, a total hero.

    But, as an adult, this scene is totally different. You see Han's devotion, considering it is a straight up suicide mission. There is almost no chance that Han would find Luke out in such a blizzard, and even less of a chance of him surviving if he does.

    It speaks ultimately of the friendship grown there, and why Luke must go and save Han and Leia later in the episode. Now, every time I watch it, I worry Han will die in the snow.

    *Also, this is a totaly off-subject side note. But I like to think the ghost of Obi-wan Kenobi is what guides Han to Luke, because he rides right through it on his Tauntaun as if he was following it.
     
  14. Avnar

    Avnar Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2007
    Thom Skywalker already mentioned this but the scene that stands out the most to me (in regards to your question) is coming to the realisation that Luke has gone to the Death Star II knowing/assuming he is going to die! Puts a whole other spin on the film for me...
     
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  15. xezene

    xezene Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2016
    Same situation, too, when he jumps at Cloud City. Never realized till I was older that Luke didn't know what was down there, if anything. He pretty much threw himself into the abyss to die rather than join Vader.
     
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