School Uniforms-Yea or Nay?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by JediOverlord, May 10, 2002.

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  1. DarthYama Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 4
    It wouldn't work. The neo-fascist bullies will find some pretext for beating the literal stuffing out of someone. Besides, I wouldn't be able to wear my "Expiring for Love is Beautiful but Stupid" T-shirt.
  2. sleazo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 4
    It always surprises me how conservative these boards are. I am certainly happy i had no dress codes while i was in school. I am a lazy slob and I really do not like people telling me what i can or cant wear or how to wear it.

    and as for not being picked on b/c you are all wearing the same clothes....
    Bullies will always find a reason to pick on other kids no matter what the reason is. Having everybody dress the same will not change that. People will still be picked on for being ugly, being fat wearing glasses, having a funny voice.


    I will have to say i always like girls in catholic school uniforms with knee high stockings...... ;)
  3. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    I don't believe some of the things im reading here. I had to wear a school uniform all the way through my school life, and believe me, at times it completly destroys your sense of individuality. It does NOT stop bullying one bit, trust me on that. At times you feel like a damned prisoner. And it can't be fun for the girls with teenage guys constantly trying to sneak peaks up skirts.

    Teaching kids to be neo-fascists with school uniforms is not the way to go. Kids have the rest of their adult lifes to conform to everything their bosses want. When their kids, let them be kids!

    If teenagers bully other teenagers for wearing cheap clothes or whatever, then thats what we have to tackle. The actual bullying. Not what gives the bully an excuse to bully, because they will always find something else. From having pimples to having ginger hair, from wearing glasses to being fat, there will always be something for the bullies.

    I find it rediculous that some of you actually think school uniforms cut down on bullying. It didn't stop me from being bullied.
  4. Darth_SnowDog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 4
    If you want your kid to wear a uniform, send them to a private school. I say "no" for public schools, in which my tax dollars are vested.

    The problem is that wearing uniforms doesn't actually solve the problems it attempts to solve. Forcing homogeneity does not facilitate cultural progress.

    We shouldn't need blinders on just to get through our day. We should be able to function even while respecting diversity for what it is.

    Fact is... kids will still be kids, uniform or no uniform. The key to shaping a person's attitude is changing what's inside, not what's outside.

  5. Darth_Asabrush Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2000
    star 5
    As a teacher I totally support the idea and application of uniform rules.

    As has been previously posted:

    1) Cost. Most (not all) uniforms are relatively cheap. They discourage the need for pupils to feel the need to wear the most expensive fashionable gear in school and therefore helps not to alienate the poorer pupils.

    2) Security. You know who is supposed to be on site and who is out of place. This is vital in the school environment these days.

    4) i)
    Discipline. Yes, I said discipline! Many inner city schools have problems with a minority of pupils during breaks and before or after school time. There are often complaints from local businesses that kids have done this or that. A uniform makes it easier to identify those kids are find out where they are from!

    ii) Simple things like learning how to tie a tie or keeping a wearing appropritae dress for certain occasions. This is a discipline. Schools are training the future adults of this world, even the simple things count IMO.

    iii) Truants in uniform - even disguised uniform, are easier to spot!

    3) Identity. A uniform gives the school and those who attend it an identity they can call their own and rally round. Whether this be in sport, extra curriclar activities or just banter between friends from another school.

    Yes, what's on the inside is the most important but schools have a wider responsibility.

    I teach art and I can tell you that my pupils are no less creative or responsive to cultural progression working in a shirt and tie.

    BTW, I teach in a state comprehensive school. That's a "public" school.

    A uniform also helps set boundaries - kids need boundaries!
  6. Darth_SnowDog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 4
    Darth_Asabrush:

    1) Cost. Most (not all) uniforms are relatively cheap. They discourage the need for pupils to feel the need to wear the most expensive fashionable gear in school and therefore helps not to alienate the poorer pupils.

    If students and parents want to waste their money being fashionable, they have every right. As far as "not alienating" everyone, why not just make our country into a socialist state where everyone is the same, gets paid the same? I'll tell you why... because people are competitive and people are individuals... it's instinctively hardwired into our genetics. I appreciate the altruism of wanting to make "poorer students" feel equal, but I'm positive that the rich and poor kids know who they are and still form cliques based on factors other than clothes. Forcing homogeneity doesn't foster any respect for diversity... of race, color, creed, sex or economic status (unless, of course, you erase people's economic status).

    2) Security. You know who is supposed to be on site and who is out of place. This is vital in the school environment these days.

    And you mean to tell me drug dealers can't get their hands on school uniforms or clothes that closely resemble them? How about forgeproof ID's instead?

    4) i)
    Discipline. Yes, I said discipline! Many inner city schools have problems with a minority of pupils during breaks and before or after school time. There are often complaints from local businesses that kids have done this or that. A uniform makes it easier to identify those kids are find out where they are from!


    Malls don't have mall security and city police resources for which consumer and taxpayer dollars already provide? So a school uniform helps them narrow it down to what... 1200-1300 suspects? If they already caught the person, whom do they notify of the crime if not the parents?

    ii) Simple things like learning how to tie a tie or keeping a wearing appropritae dress for certain occasions. This is a discipline. Schools are training the future adults of this world, even the simple things count IMO.

    Last time I checked, the majority of the business world is now wearing business casual or casual clothing. Wearing suits (which ultimately serves no other purpose but to impress each other or stratify management vs. employees) is a ridiculous standard that we set for ourselves... The only people who still routinely are required to wear suits are salesmen, because they always have someone the're trying to impress.

    Quite frankly, however, I don't care what you look like... it's whether or not your words and actions have any substance. Even a college degree isn't always a requirement these days, provided a prospective employee can demonstrate their proficiency in a field one way or another.

    Are we teaching our kids how to think or how to grow up to be pretentious socialites?

    iii) Truants in uniform - even disguised uniform, are easier to spot!

    Skipping school is a problem, but people hell-bent on skipping school will continue to do it... If the threat of detention doesn't bother these likely repeat offenders, why should the presence of school uniforms deter them?

    3) Identity. A uniform gives the school and those who attend it an identity they can call their own and rally round. Whether this be in sport, extra curriclar activities or just banter between friends from another school.

    It's true that clothes can impact the way you feel about yourself, but they are also a reflection of who we are... However, just because the guy down the street wears a daishiki doesn't necessarily mean he's down with it. Ultimately, identity comes from within.

    Yes, what's on the inside is the most important but schools have a wider responsibility.

    Parents have the majority of the responsibility in all these cases here. Schools teach us how to think and how to act by virtue of the knowledge disseminated and the presence of the social community of peers. Students learn these social lessons by action-consequence re
  7. DarthYama Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 4
    Forcing homogeneity does not facilitate cultural progress.

    Some people believe that. That's why many indigenous peoples end up dead. Progress. Well, the Inca didn't think so.
  8. Kuna_Tiori Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2002
    star 4
    I say nay. School uniforms tend to be "uncool" and uncomfortable, from my experience, and annoying too. Plus, on the practical side, unless you own several sets of uniforms or are able to wash/dry your clothes every night it's not very pleasant to be wearing the same thing 5 days in a row.

    In addition, it's a restriction on freedom and individuality, and it doesn't help crack down on gangs, truancy, bullying, etc.
  9. R2D2-PENA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    I have been to both uniformed and non-uniformed schools and to post my opinion on this is say it is better for US society to implement this.

    For one, as stated above, many people do not have the resources to pay for alot of clothes, and that is why uniforms are used in many countries.

    2.-Discipline is NEEDED in schools, especially in American schools, where there is such a lack of discipline, self-expression is good, but school is about learning and growing, and in the younger years, discipline is more important than self-expression, if you want self-expression, teach the child to write poems, play a musical instrument, join a debate class, etc. there are alot of forms of self expression.

    3.-In Mexico, uniforms are used to identify children in school from children out of school, visitors from non-visitors, and if a kid skips class, you can see it immediately when he/she is outside, again a certain for of discipline.

    4.-By unifying the form of dress you are sending a message of equality among those students, believe me that racial inequality is very evident through dress, just look at the difference between a black, a white, a gangster black, asian rocker, asian nerd, latin-american labor class, white rich, black rich, whatever, etc etc. Non uniformed schools have many groups which are identified by their clothes and as a result you can tell the difference classes, and like it or not, kids do make distinctions based on clothes and that reflects in attitude, and in many cases, kids suffer a certain form of discrimination from others, just look at what i just wrote and you can see that even sub-conciously you identified different classes of people, and by using uniforms, you can soften that stereotype.
  10. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    In middle school, I was teased mercilessly for several reasons, none of which was how I dressed. I was so miserable that I am now homeschooled.

    Uniforms will not stop bullying. And don't punish everyone by forcing them to wear uniforms. Only punish the bullies. Send them to detention.
  11. Darth_SnowDog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 4
    But Rebecca, punishing only the bullies would mean the administration actually has to think!

    It's so much easier to just punish everybody... like the way my high school principal would give both the bully and the victim detention, even if the victim did nothing to provoke the incident or even defend himself/herself.

    Why learn how to paint when you can just dump black paint and cover the whole canvas in one splash? Who cares if it lacks beauty and intellect... at least it's clean and simple, and easier on the eyes, right?

    Why do tribal people go extinct? Um, maybe it has something to do with the other cultures that come along and annihilate them because they refuse to give up their cultural identity.

    If China invaded and occupied America tomorrow... I wonder how many of you would put up with their horrible disregard for human rights? How many of you would adhere blindly to their one-child-per-family rule? Would you stand by and watch your cultural identity erased... or would you fight for your right to be who you are?

    If you choose to let people walk all over you and your cultural identity, then I think you need to rediscover what it means to be an American citizen, sworn either by birth or oath to uphold and defend the Constitution.

    This country was founded by people who rebelled against the status quo. Why is it so surprising that our kids have that same instinct in them... yet here we are seeking to repress human nature?
  12. Khab Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 23, 1999
    star 1
    I like being able to wear just about whatever I want to express myself. No one bothers me because I dress differently than most people. Also, most uniform proposals seem to have girls wearing skirts, which I flat out refuse to do.
  13. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    Schools need to tackle the bullying. Its something that every school has, and which most schools are incabable of handling. In Primary school (i believe you americans call that junior high) the principal would always blame me for being bullied. Suggesting that i somehow ask for it and love the attention. I can't tell you how miserable i was back then. This whole school uniform thing is a non-topic, just some sort of quick fix that won't fix a thing, schools NEED to tackle the actual bullying.
  14. Kuna_Tiori Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2002
    star 4
    Darth_Snowdog, are you arguing yay or nay? It seems like nay but I'm just checking...

    Private schools can do whatever they want so long as it's legal. Public schools should not require students to wear uniforms.
  15. nyjets Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 29, 2001
    star 4
    I have had to wear a uniform all my life and i wouldn't know what to do if i didn't have to wear one. i feel it's easier and i'm lazy
  16. Valiowk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2000
    star 6
    Here in Singapore, all school students up to Junior College (Year 12) have to wear school uniforms. I see nothing wrong with it, as it helps to provide a sense of identity, and also helps people in identifying the school that a particular student comes from. This will thus place greater responsibility on the student not to do anything that could potentially defame the school in public.

    I think that there is a lot to be proud of in a school uniform. I say this because recently my school administration discovered that the colour of the uniform that the uniform company had been supplying had constantly been changing and had evolved to a darker colour. Therefore, they intended to change it back to the original colour. However, many of the students were unhappy as they preferred the new colour, and in fact felt a sense of attachment to it. In fact, they actually started a petition to request to keep the current colour.

    Khab: Most of the girls in my school wear shorts underneath their pinafore. It's become sort of a habit and a tradition to do so. :) Having needed to wear a skirt for my first 6 years, and then a pinafore in the 3 years after that, I can say that wearing shorts underneath has become very much a part of everyday life. :)
  17. Playa_numero_1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 6, 2002
    A teacher once pointed out to me an interesting fact. Everyone at school is already wearing a uniform. For guys its either jeans or khakis( long pants or shorts) and some type of t-shirt (long or short sleeved), possibly with another shirt over top of it. Girls have more variety, but they have pants, shorts, or skirts (how often do you see them wearing dresses in school) Then a nice shirt or blouse or something. Everyone is pretty much already uniform to everyone else. I don't entirely like the point my teacher made about this, because I like to think of myself as an individual, but he's right.
  18. Darth_Asabrush Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2000
    star 5
    Darth_Snowdog:

    "If students and parents want to waste their money being fashionable, they have every right. As far as "not alienating" everyone, why not just make our country into a socialist state where everyone is the same, gets paid the same? I'll tell you why... because people are competitive and people are individuals... it's instinctively hardwired into our genetics. I appreciate the altruism of wanting to make "poorer students" feel equal, but I'm positive that the rich and poor kids know who they are and still form cliques based on factors other than clothes. Forcing homogeneity doesn't foster any respect for diversity... of race, color, creed, sex or economic status (unless, of course, you erase people's economic status)."

    A ? "I'm positive that the rich and poor kids know who they are and still form cliques based on factors other than clothes." ? Agreed. However the role of a uniform makes one factor of life very important to kids, a more level playing ground.

    B - "Forcing homogeneity doesn't foster any respect for diversity... of race, color, creed, sex or economic status." ? Letting people wear what they like doesn?t either. What it does is highlight the fact that one kid can?t afford to buy the best trainers or most fashionable jeans. There are other ways of fostering respect for diversity.

    "And you mean to tell me drug dealers can't get their hands on school uniforms or clothes that closely resemble them? How about forgeproof ID's instead?"

    A ? Not what I?m saying. A uniform will greatly reduce the likelihood of not identifying people who are not supposed to be there. Whether it be drug dealers, ex pupils, or whatever.

    "Malls don't have mall security and city police resources for which consumer and taxpayer dollars already provide? So a school uniform helps them narrow it down to what... 1200-1300 suspects? If they already caught the person, whom do they notify of the crime if not the parents?"

    A ? Not true where I come from. In England most, if not all shopping centres have security who are informed to look out for truants. One of the main roles of beat bobbies and community officers is dealing with truancy. Consistant truants are dealt with by the school , parents and local authority in the form the Education Welfare Officer. Magistrates have been given new powers to punish the parents of the truants. A school uniform is an easier way of identifying and recognising truants.

    "Last time I checked, the majority of the business world is now wearing business casual or casual clothing. Wearing suits (which ultimately serves no other purpose but to impress each other or stratify management vs. employees) is a ridiculous standard that we set for ourselves... The only people who still routinely are required to wear suits are salesmen, because they always have someone the're trying to impress." ? Not true for the UK.

    "Quite frankly, however, I don't care what you look like... it's whether or not your words and actions have any substance. Even a college degree isn't always a requirement these days, provided a prospective employee can demonstrate their proficiency in a field one way or another." ? As a former HR manager I would agree, in theory.

    "Are we teaching our kids how to think or how to grow up to be pretentious socialites?" - No

    "It's true that clothes can impact the way you feel about yourself, but they are also a reflection of who we are... However, just because the guy down the street wears a daishiki doesn't necessarily mean he's down with it. Ultimately, identity comes from within."

    A ? I agree that ultimately identity comes from within. Not all children are strong enough or mature enough to recognise this. The uniform helps. It works in the schools I have attended and worked in.

    "Parents have the majority of the responsibility in all these cases here. Schools teach us how to think and how to act by virtue of the knowledge disseminated and the presence of the social community of peers. Students learn
  19. Darkside_Spirit Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 3
    Wouldn't it be more appropriate to discuss the wider issue of whether people should be compelled to wear a certain mode of clothing in formal situations? After all, most men in professional jobs have to wear suits, ties, etc, and women have similar requirements. School uniform just seems like a precursor to formal adult clothing.
  20. DarthYama Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 4
    Why would a truant bother to wear the uniform?
  21. Kuna_Tiori Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2002
    star 4
    Do students really need to "practice" wearing adult clothing? If so, then they can wear adult clothing to school if they like. Saying "nay" to uniforms doesn't mean you can't wear a particular outfit - in fact, it means that you have more choice in what you wear.

    As for students feeling isolated because they don't wear better clothing, that's something that needs to be addressed directly, not by forcing everybody to wear the same thing. Even in the adult world the same pressure can be felt.

    And as for students being "unable" to ditch class because of uniforms - oh please, there are plenty of ways you can circumvent that. Besides, the average guy seeing a student in a uniform walking down the street may 1) Not necessarily be able to tell which school the student is from 2) Not be able to tell if the student is actually ditching or just not going to school because he/she has an unscheduled period.
  22. Darth_Asabrush Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2000
    star 5
    "Why would a truant bother to wear the uniform?" - Who knows? However, many do! They register at school then leave and don't bother to change because they have to return at the end of the day to re-register. I guess the smart ones do change!

    Pupils at most English schools are required to remain on site even if they have unscheduled periods. This rarely happens below Key Stage 4 (Years 10 & 11 - aged 15 - 16) and Sixth Form (aged 16 - 19). Then it only happens around exam time to provide for additional study.

    When I say that I support the wearing of uniform I am talking about Key Stages 1 - 4 (Years 1 - 11 = aged 5 to 16). Post 16 education is different as many pupils change schools and go on to sixth form colleges. I would not advocate students at sixth form wearing uniforms due to the different learning environment.

    I cannot comment on American schools as I have never had experience in the American education system. I am commenting on uniforms from an English perspective, where, on the whole it works with out detrement to the education and/or development of young people.

  23. Whimper Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 1999
    star 4
    Here's an opinion from a the perspective of someone who went to a private school in Canada-- what about a partial uniform?

    The school I was at had a "strict" dress code that wasn't strict at all. It basically enforced against revealing clothes, beer advertisements, and most of all- jeans. It did nothing to foster a school identity, did nothing to prevent people from being discriminated against because they didn't have the latest threads, and did only very little in terms of dicipline.

    I would have much rather seen a partial uniform put in place- perhaps have uniform pants/shorts/skirts and jackets, but allow the student to choose the top. Or something.
  24. KEDA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2002
    star 1
    i think yea with a little more..
    i think school should get uniforms but the students sould be the ones to pick them...
    give the kids the desistion, there one ones who have to whare them....
    dive them veriety, not just the plade skirts/pants and white t-shirts...
  25. QueenLaniAmidala Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2002
    star 2
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