Science or Spirituality

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by JediMaster1511, Aug 2, 2010.

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  1. JediMaster1511 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2010
    star 9
    That is a fair and good point you make.


    But I've also met adults that lack the common sense of right and wrong. Sometimes it takes that "authority figure" above all figures to keep them in line. I've known people this works on, and I've known people this doesn't work on however. I would like to believe something like that isn't needed, but some people just do need it. I like it because it helps me keep balance. Again, some people don't need it however.
  2. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    Isn't that why we live in a society that has laws against stuff?
  3. JediMaster1511 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2010
    star 9
    That is, yes. But if you study some of those laws, a lot of them come from religous laws. When I was in high school, I took a street law class and one of the discussions we had as a group was how many laws seem to be taken from religous laws. We had discussed whether or not we would have thought of these laws if they weren't in any religion. Unfortunatley, we couldn't determine the fact because we got into a "what if" discussion.

    I'll agree that some religous laws like worshipping one God instead of another are irrelevant to our being. And I would hope that we could determine killing, stealing , lying, etc. is wrong without that threat of hellfire. I know there are religons that establish this without that threat. But again we may get into a "what if" conversation if we try to determine whether or not we could establish these laws without religion, and I'm afraid of that.
  4. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    Again, I'd argue that they're not taken from religion so much as present in religion. The issue is the idea of origin. The two are not the same set of laws. Heck, look at how many of the Ten Commandments are NOT against the law. Depending on how you break it down, and on one bit of interpretation, it's something like 7 out of 10 commandments that are basically legal even though they're religiously forbidden. If we were to say that our source of legality was religion, then we would expect to see that most or all of them were legally present.

    I don't think there's an inherent religiosity in most of our laws, and just because religion has used them doesn't make them religious laws in themselves, any more than just because the Bible contains the word 'the' that it's therefore a religiously-significant word.
  5. JediMaster1511 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2010
    star 9
    That is a very good point. You have given me much to think about.
  6. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Otherwise known as a "conscience". Again, it can exist without God. I should know.
  7. Eternity85 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2008
    star 3
    Whatever we believe in, it is always very important to be humble. Spiritual leader or Scientist, both need to show humility.

    I came to think of something.. Science will always look for evidence, without it there is no truth. But when we deal with Spirituality we leave the physical world, and science is limited to the physical realm(for now). So what im saying is that: Something that cannot be proven(God, the Holy Spirit etc) cannot be disproven either, now can it..

    I always find it hard to participate in discussions such as this because i tend to lean towards possibilism. So im never able to say: "No that is not true!" Because there is so much we dont know; and i do know that people once believed that Earth was the center of the Universe, and then they believed the Sun to be the center of the Universe, before they learned that the Sun is just one star of millions in a large Galaxy.. Later we found out that there are millions of Galaxies. So.. There is no reason to shut our minds no matter how improbable something sounds to us at this present day..



  8. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    So, what you are saying is, it's possible that Christianity is wrong, and Allah is the one true God, then?
  9. JediMaster1511 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2010
    star 9
    I don't think that is exactly what Eternity85 is saying. I think what E85 is trying to say is with science's limited ability in the field of spirituality, that to say something isn't real is to early to call. So when in this type of conversation, E85 doesn't want to adhere to either side since any side is possible.

    The point being made is that yes, anything is possible, but what you ask MBJ is a bit of a barbed question is it not?

    E85 brings up some good points.
  10. DorkmanScott Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    That's not how the burden of proof works.

    The person making the claim has to prove that the claim is true. If they cannot prove that the claim is true, then there is no need to disprove it. It hasn't been proved in the first place. You can't tear down a building that hasn't even managed to get built.

    You understand this implicitly when it comes to stuff that's not your indoctrinated religion of choice. If I say "I have an invisible pet unicorn -- prove I don't" you already understand that it's not your job to prove I don't, it's my job to prove I do.

    So with any claim of a paranormal, supernatural, or "spiritual" nature.
  11. JediMaster1511 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2010
    star 9
    A good point DorkmanScott, but I think the overall point E85 was trying to make was for one to keep their options open. Since it hasn't been actually proven nor disproven. I think that's what E85 is trying to say.
  12. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    What does that mean, though? How do we go about "keeping our options open" vis a vis the vast, potentially infinite universe of supernatural claims for which no evidence has ever been presented?
  13. DorkmanScott Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    You seem not to have understood my "good point" at all. "Nor disproven" is superfluous. If it hasn't been proven, that's where the conversation ends. Something that hasn't been proved, hasn't been proved. It doesn't need to be disproved, it hasn't been proved in the first place.

    Certainly the option to be considered a truthful claim is always open. All you have to to is prove it. If you can't prove it in the first place, the fact that it hasn't been disproved is not a point in its favor.

    As with my previously stated analogy, a building that has been torn down and a building that has never been built are largely indistinguishable. An argument that has never been proved is as good as one disproved. Only when it is actually proved, or even demonstrated in some significant fashion, does the paradigm shift.
  14. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    Silly! If you could prove God, you wouldn't need faith!
  15. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    The argument that "you can't disprove it either!" allows for such things as high sales figures for the paranomral section in bookstores.
  16. LostOnHoth Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
    Sounds like Pascal's Wager to me.
  17. JediMaster1511 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2010
    star 9

    But just because something hasn't been proven doesn't mean it doesn't exist. While it may not exist, it may also exist, unless proven not to.

    The point that was trying to be made is there is nothing proving nor disproving a higher power, so it should be an open possibilty until something definitive occurs on either side.

    Side note: Do you necsesarily need to "prove" something exists to disprove it?
  18. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    Yeah... won't be long now. Soon we can welcome a fresh atheist on the boards.
  19. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    And the point that you're missing and/or ignoring is that when every one of an infinite number of contradictory supernatural claims is just as "possible" as another, there's no practical difference between "I'm open to it all because none of it's been disproven" and "I don't believe any of it because none of it's been proven".

    You might as well argue whether it's more accurate to say "the glass is half empty" or "the glass is half full".
  20. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Oh, I'm sure it isn't, because I'm sure that possibility is just a bit too "open-minded" for him, despite his claim that "There is no reason to shut our minds no matter how improbable something sounds to us at this present day." In my experience, people who tend to use the "Let's be more open-minded about things" tend to mean "You should be more accepting of MY beliefs", even though they have little intention of reciprocating.

    So you are open to the possibility that Christianity is wrong, and Allah is the one true God?

    I'm not saying it's right, I'm just asking you if you believe it's possible.

    How about the possibility that God is made up of 23 1/2 pink elephants named Ed. I mean, unless you can prove that assertion false, then you must accept the possibility that it could be true, correct?

    LOL!
  21. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    E85's post is basically another version of Russell's Teapot, and is a logical fallacy.
  22. DorkmanScott Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    But the way rational thinking works is: it is best to assume that something does not exist until it is proved that it does. I have as much reason to believe that Hogwarts exists as any god. It doesn't need to be proved that Hogwarts does not exist -- I could, after all, come up with any number of magical excuses to skirt around any attempted disproof.

    The onus is on me to demonstrate that Hogwarts does exist, and until such time as I can do so, my contention "Hogwarts exists" would not justify any serious consideration.

    I understand that's the point. The point I was making is: that is wrong.

    There is nothing proving a higher power. Period the end. Until there is something proving -- or even so much as indicating -- a higher power, it is not a possibility worth considering. It does not need to be disproved. It has not been demonstrated and so is not worthy of serious consideration. No moreso than my invisible pet unicorn or Hogwarts in the Highlands.

    You need to demonstrate that something is likely to be true before it is worth bothering to "disprove" it.
  23. JediMaster1511 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2010
    star 9

    Yes, I can see where you come from DorkmanScott. I still like to keep myself open to many possibilities though for the sake of learning and exploration. (On a personal level)


    I'm more of a Taoist. Actually I wouldn't call myself a complete Taoist , that's just the closest thing to my overall beliefs.
  24. DorkmanScott Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    I'm open to any possibility, but the difference between you and me seems to be that I require some kind of evidence, and you're apparently happy to accept everything at face value. If someone can imagine it, you'll believe it.

    I don't see how you learn anything by being incapable of distinguishing fact from fiction. It would seem to me that would be the most important thing to learn before anything else. Otherwise you're not necessarily learning information, just accumulating assertions.

    Or is there, in fact, some standard of evidence which you choose to apply inconsistently, depending on how much you want to believe something?

    As the saying goes, be open-minded, but not so much that your brain falls out.
  25. JediMaster1511 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2010
    star 9
    If I here of an idea I give it the benefit of the doubt to at least listen. Then I apply it to what I know, then make my decision. Say for an example the Holy Blood, Holy Grail book. I read it, listened to the arguments, then tried to assertain it's likelyhood and came to the conclusion of it being plausible, however it's probability was ambiguous and probably low. I don't necsesarily believe anything I hear. I however give it a chance to explain itself. Sometimes I brand it "to early to call" and put it on a back burner until future material is available. For example God, it hasn't been proven true, so I can't accept it's not, but I won't accept it is. When it comes to God I am rather agnosic.

    I have come to the conclusion most people need some form of spirituality because some people do beleive, and I've seen people that have accepted it and became a better person. I've also seen a person abandon it and become a horrible person. So it has to have some sort of power, even if it turns out to be psychological only.
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