[Second incarnation] Obi-Wan Kenobi: Idiot Man-Child or Subtle Genius

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Quixotic-Sith, Jan 3, 2007.

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  1. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

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    I first raised this topic several years ago in the now defunct individual prequel forums, and thought it would be fun to raise it here.

    So, you are placed in the position of hiding the off-spring of the most powerful villain in the known universe. Do you:

    (a) Change the child's name, hiding him in the care of a strange family isolated as much as possible from Empire control, [face_dancing]

    or

    (b) Not change the child's name, give him to the closest relatives of said most powerful villain on the villain's home planet, and then run off in the desert to drink? [face_shame_on_you]
  2. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

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    Your premise is wrong. It was Yoda not Obi-Wan who made the decision to send him to the family on Tatoonine.

    From the script:


    YODA: Split up, they should be.

    BAIL ORGANA: My wife and I will take the girl. We've always talked of adopting a baby girl. She will be loved with us.

    OBI-WAN: And what of the boy?

    YODA: To Tatooine. To his family, send him.

    OBI-WAN: I will take the child and watch over him.
  3. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

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    Yeah, yeah, yeah, I saw the movie, too. I could have just as easily posted "Yoda: Idiot Man-Child or Subtle Genius". The same logic applies and the question would be equally applicable.
  4. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

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    Obi-Wan has enough flaws so we dont have to pile on Yoda's flaws on him too. :p


    But I dont think it was a case of "Idiot Man-Child or Subtle Genius" in the decision. I think it was the only decision Yoda knew to make at that time. He didnt have any other good answers. Failed, he did. Into exile he must go.

    But on the other hand, why didnt the Lars change Lukes last name ? Did or didnt Obi-Wan warn them of the danger ? That to me is the strange part.
  5. LordVader66 Jedi Master

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    Aug 30, 2005
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    It's very difficult trying to explain this stitution. It clearly doesn't make sense. Obviously, Luke shouldn't have kept the last name "Skywalker" if he was supposed to grow up in secret from Vader and the Empire. Taking Luke to Tatooine wasn't a big deal because it was distant and I don't see what reason Vader could have had to return there. Lucas has defended this point by saying that Vader would not go back to Tatooine because he didn't want to awaken Anakin, so I'll buy that I guess. The biggest issue with deciding where the twins would go is that Yoda decided that they shouldn't be trained from birth. What in God's name was Yoda thinking? Allowing Luke to grow up on a brutal planet and taking a risk that emotional problems could develop, and then training him as a Jedi? Does that sound anything like the beginings of Anakin Skywalker? Both Yoda and Obiwan seemed to be setting Luke up to become Vader II. Yoda and Obiwan's decesion making was mind boggling. But I guess that Yoda and Obiwan had some feeling from the Force that it was the right thing to do, and they were successful, so I'd saying the were merely acting as servants of the Force.
  6. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

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    It's just sort of Silly Thing #145. I don't know why, but it's one of those Silly Things that will make SW fun to talk about til the End of Time.
  7. Old_Zen Jedi Knight

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    Mar 18, 2005
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    Obi Wan is at once an Idiot Man and an Idiot Child and that ladies and gentlemen...is what makes him a subtle genius....


  8. Dark_Faith Jedi Knight

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    (a) Change the child's name, hiding him in the care of a strange family isolated as much as possible from Empire control,

    For all we know, they did change the child's name to Luke Lars. The offical story would be Owen and Beru Lars married each other, made love, had their own son, and raised him on their farm. Nothing suspicious, nothing strange. Yoda and Obi Wan suspected Darth Vader to be no more; burned to death on Mustafar. Even if he did survive, he would never once step foot on Tatooine, in fear of harkening the pain of the past and his failures, the core of his inabilities, and perhaps even awakening the 'good' in Vader which to him is a weakness. Tatooine is a fairly remote and wayward planet well outside of the rule of the Empire. The Lars farm is in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of endless desert. Tatooine seems to have a deadning of the force. A place where the force is blocked. Most inhabitants on Tatooine are immune to the force, as Watto and Jabba the Hutt are to name a couple thus by this logic, it is a place 'where the sith will not sense their presence'. Yoda wanted the twins to be raised in a regular family enviorment, because Yoda reconized the flaw of the Jedi Order, and that drilling any attachments from a youngling is not the preimere concept to become a Jedi. Obi Wan and Yoda had to very careful to who they can entrust with this very important and potentially very powerful baby so they coulden't just send him away to any strange couple or family. The Lars were the only family they had, besides the Narberries who lived on Naboo (Palpatine's home planet, now that would have been a decision to deem the Jedi Idiot Men-Children for sure). It would only be the right thing to do to grant them their newphew/neice, since it was wiser to seperate them. Yoda was being trained by Master Qui Gon Jinn who had become one with the force and retained his indenity allowing himself a direct and deeper connection to the living force and its 'will'. Yoda adopted Qui Gon's teachings. Padme's corpse was made to appear pregnant, so even if Palpatine knew she was bearing children, they would be presumed deceased with her. Alas, if you are not looking for something, you will never find it....(cont.)
  9. Dark_Faith Jedi Knight

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    (b) Not change the child's name, give him to the closest relatives of said most powerful villain on the villain's home planet, and then run off in the desert to drink?

    This 'most powerful villain' was presumed destroyed. This powerful villian's birth/home planet was now Courscant. Tatooine was Anakin Skywalker's homeplanet, who the Jedi had beleived ceased to be when Vader was born. As for if Darth Vader is the most powerful villan of all time in the galaxy is up for debate, espcially after his defeat at Mustafar. Second, Obi Wan does not 'run off in the desert'. He rides his Eopie that he purchased when he first arrvied in Mos Eisley on a public transport with baby Luke, which he later sells off, and finds an old abanded hut in the depths of the Dune Sea. Obi Wan or 'Old Ben' as he came to be known to the locals of north Tatooine is known to have visted many cantinas around the area, and fequently consumed intoxicating fluids. This is certaintly understandable, knowing what he went through. Some note that he always had a weakness for the drink, though it only fully flourished when he was relived of his offical status as a Jedi, and needed to vent and veer from his guilt, shock, horror and depresseion caused from the dramatic events of his recent life including the genecide of the order he served since birth, the transformation of the Republic he fought for into an evil empire controled by his mortal enemy, and the loss of his most brightest student to the dark side. (cont.)
  10. Dark_Faith Jedi Knight

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    A behind the scenes answer to this is quite clear. Star Wars writer/director George Lucas often changes his mind and revises his story which may lead to some people discovering plot holes arising from the conflict of old and new ideas mutually existing within his present work. In the original Star Wars (1977), George Lucas wasen't completely certain if he wanted to have Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker's father become the same character, so Tatooine wasen't Darth Vader's homeplanet but merely an arid and distant dustball in the deeps depths of forgotten space.
  11. Dark_Faith Jedi Knight

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    When he made the changes in the story begining with The Empire Strikes Back (1980) and flourishing throghout Return of the Jedi (1983), The Phantom Menace (1999) and Attack of the Clones (2002) , many supposed plot holes were formed, but Lucas haden't a choice for he needed the story to logically match up with what we learned in A New Hope. Thus, Revenge of the Sith contained scenes where the characters of Yoda and Obi Wan decide to hide the twins on Tatooine and Alderaan, even if it may seem like a bold and foolish move. (cont.)
  12. Dark_Faith Jedi Knight

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    Perhaps George Lucas could have handeled it in a more clever and subtle fashion, but what exists is what remains and we fans have to make the best of it. As it is, it is not so distasteful and explantions aren't too difficult to come by. Compared to other movies' plot holes (most importantly trilogies or series e.g Back to the Future series) SW hasen't that many of these so-named plot holes.
  13. Dark_Faith Jedi Knight

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    We have to understand the trial of writing a story over the course of over thirty years. You change. Your perception of life changes. You as a person change. You don't think the same way anymore. You don't like the same things, or don't beleive in the same things. You have different ideas on what to do. It is a conflict to splice together the old written concepts and the new ones, but I beleive Lucas pulled it off as best he could. I owe him to it. You should too IMHO.
  14. Dark_Faith Jedi Knight

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    Jan 30, 2004
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    At last in the end it is in this fans humblest opinion that Obi Wan and/or Yoda are not Idiot Man-Child(ren) but Subtle Genious(es) .

    May the Force be with you. :)
  15. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

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    OMG, please edit ONE post. Posting more than once in a row is considered spamming.
  16. Dark_Faith Jedi Knight

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    heh tell that to the forum system. It won't let me enter a post bigger than 4 lines tonight. Don't ASSUME so quickly. Espcially if the person in question hasen't a history in spamming. I'm not stupid. Is there any way to fix this?
  17. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

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    Look for info, or post about the problem, in the tech help thread in Comms.
  18. Dark_Faith Jedi Knight

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    Well if I managed to edit it all into one post, could you deleted all the rest?
  19. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

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    Don't worry about, let's just move on.
  20. DARTHLINK Force Ghost

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    Feb 24, 2005
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    A wonderful read! You've just given me new insights on Obi-Wan!

    One question, did Beru and Owen ever say: "Luke Skywalker"? If not, this could be the key. I see it as Obi explains everything to them, and they refer to Luke as "Luke Lars" while we know he's otherwise.

    Great read, Dark_Faith [face_peace] =D=
  21. Dark_Faith Jedi Knight

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    Jan 30, 2004
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    Thank you, so much for your kind words, :) and no, Luke is NEVER mentioned as Luke Skywalker onscreen by the Lars in ANH.
  22. Jovieve Jedi Master

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    May 19, 2002
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    Well, then change the title of your thread since you got it wrong who made the decision. Obi-Wan gets enough criticism from people who don't consider all the aspects without misleading them even more with this sort of topic.

    First of all, I agree, they thought Vader was dead. It makes perfect sense for Yoda to order Luke to Tatooine. Much more sense at the time than Bail taking Leia. In modern society, where everyone is likely stamped and ID'd from birth and the free media probably present on each planet, wouldn't it seem stranger for a senator's wife to suddenly pop up with a new baby? Granted Sidious would have to suspect the children were born and Bail a sympathizer, but still.

    Tatooine is the perfect place, not because Yoda thinks family is best (the old Jedi way worked for 10,000 years quite successfully), but because it's not part of the Republic, has no resources, is not strategically important, is remote and has a mobile, not documented population. The Empire has little reason to come to Tatooine. It was easier to quickly dump Luke with Lars' since they would most easily take him in.

    Then later, when they DID discover Vader was Anakin, they thought their cover was holding. Vader thought Padme and the kids dead. He had no reason to go back to Tatooine and the emperor certainly didn't allow Vader to go off on personal jaunts. Notice in the OT, Vader doesn't do anything the emperor doesn't tell him to. Until the very end of course.
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Qui-gon reassured both Jedi Masters that Vader would never set foot on Tatooine again. That Luke was safe so long as they erased all evidence of their birth on Polis Massa. Qui-gon and Yoda discussed not training the twins from birth. Both agreed that training from birth was not always the best possible solution. By leaving them with families, not only are the children and their guardians protected, but they can gain a better understanding of compassion. There is the danger that they could follow the path of their father, but if they are raised all the way to adulthood, they'll be better capable of coping. More than Anakin ever was. This is why Luke is able to redeem Anakin. He can see his father and understand why he fell. Why he failed to resist the dark side. And Anakin sees himself in Luke, which allows him to see the road not taken, while Luke sees the road to hell.
  24. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

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    Qui-gon reassured both Jedi Masters that Vader would never set foot on Tatooine again. That Luke was safe so long as they erased all evidence of their birth on Polis Massa. Qui-gon and Yoda discussed not training the twins from birth. Both agreed that training from birth was not always the best possible solution. By leaving them with families, not only are the children and their guardians protected, but they can gain a better understanding of compassion. There is the danger that they could follow the path of their father, but if they are raised all the way to adulthood, they'll be better capable of coping. More than Anakin ever was. This is why Luke is able to redeem Anakin. He can see his father and understand why he fell. Why he failed to resist the dark side. And Anakin sees himself in Luke, which allows him to see the road not taken, while Luke sees the road to hell.





    Well we certainly dont get all that from ROTS. As I noted above, we only get about 6 or 7 lines total on the subject. The the fate of the children is shown like a minor after thought. They acted like they were getting rid of a litter of kittens or something. :p

    Also, it definately does seem like Obi-Wan never mentioned the "Anakin turning into evil Dark Vader" story to the Lars'. So it seems like they were blissfully ignorant of the whole matter.
  25. Dark_Faith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2004
    star 3
    Read Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader.




    Its all there.
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