Reference Second Language Players ~ Rising a topic

English is a wonderful language, if you ask me. Precise, but poetic enough to give it´s precision beauty. There are people saying Italian is the finest language in the world, but for me it´s to soft. I wanna say something with an edge or soft, whenever I want.

English isn´t my natural tongue, though. I was born in Germany, raised in Germany and never spoke a word English, maybe never even heard a word English, until I entered third class in Grundschule.

And as many of you might know, I am not the only one. Many people not speaking English as their first language have made these boards their creative homes. Some did so being comfortable with the language used here, others did not feel so good about it. One member left recently, because she felt to incompetent to write in English.

So, I thought it is time to talk. How do you deal with the language issue, my dear non-english colleagues? How hard is it for you to follow games? How hard to write updates? Do you feel limited by the language? Forced to compromise your writing?

And what is it like for GMs and players who have to play with non-native speakers? Do we cause problems? Do we lower the quality of games? Or do we give something fresh to it, coming from another speaking culture?

I have the suspicions a lot of non-english speakers have a lot of ideas which will turn to be wrong, once we have talked about it.

My own opinion I want to offer a little later.

For now. Speak my friends.

 

Well, I figure I can open it up. I am a native English speaker, and while there is nothing wrong with other languages, I must say I too love it. that is besides the point however.

And what is it like for GMs and players who have to play with non-native speakers? Do we cause problems? Do we lower the quality of games? Or do we give something fresh to it, coming from another speaking culture?

I have recently had the privilege of playing and talking with one or two of the Germans floating around here. In my experience, which is limited granted, they detract nothing from the game due to their limited mastery of the English language. Heck, given that it IS a second language, I am very impressed with most posts. So, no, it is not a detriment to the game to have a non-English speaker in the game so long as they are striving to do their best with their posts.

Is it frustrating sometimes? Well, of course. It's hard going through posts that have grammatical and syntax errors. Sometimes it takes an additional read-through to truly grasp what is being said. However, this is to be expected and, in the long run, proves to be a rather small annoyance. I also sometimes pause after using a word and wonder if the recipient will know what it means. Not to question the intelligence of the other, not at all, but merely because it can be hard not knowing what it is the non-English speakers know, especially when using more obscure words that even some English speakers don't know. But, actually, the cultural differences, to me, prove to be a far greater hindrance than the actual language. Even that, however, is very easy to work around and minor, and then only in social settings. The different culture will only add to the game.

It's my personal opinion that most issues, if there are any, would be coming from the English speakers. All it takes is a little patience. I just try to remember that if I was trying to do an RP in, say, German, I'd be doing far worse. I will say, however, if the non-English speaker isn't working to at least do their best, if not improve their English, that can be a bit of a problem. However, I don't see much of that happening.

Well, that is said. Hopefully it is found beneficial. With that, I shall leave you to the discussion.

 

Oh well, indeed this thread might have been overdue. And I want to add my two cents to the cash you´ll gather here.

How is it to write in English? Unlike other Germans or French people doing English RPing, I actually have played for most of my life in German, my natural tongue. And enjoyed it, so I cannot say that when I joined 128 ABY - Turning Point back in 2007 I felt comfortable about it. It was easier then I thought, actually. Modern media has brought me a constant stream of ideas and words to my footsteps coming from the English language. I do not wait for crappy translations of SW books but read them in their original. Actually a Victory-Class was never a Sieg-Klasse for me. I always used the English term. A few things are difficult, but also a challenge in a positive way. Writing perspectives is more difficult. Using old-fashioned manners of speaking is actually impossible for me. Other things get easier. I realized my characters have more of a unique voice in English. Because they cannot steal my own, anyway.

Is there a temptation to return to my own language? Sure! Let´s face it, when a year ago a major game began playing in German I felt the urge to join. I did stay here, basically because of my love for the stories and games here. My playing over the years these days divides into German and English games. Also English is for me the language of Star Wars.

Problems. I think I encountered them. But rare. I am not sure if it even was translation sometimes. Or just updating at 4 o´Clock in the morning, after a glass of wine . . . messing with my post.

That were my first idea, about this topic. I might add some thoughts later. For now, I can only say . . . it never appeared to me, that it was in any way a lesser way to play.

I would like to poin out that, while our posts might have certain flaws, some of the Germans, like you yourself LordT and SirakRomar were nominated for best posts in the Summer Challenges and Awards. Not judging how much that tells about anything, I believe to get that recognition, you need to have the ability to transform your thoughts into the post you want to create. Which obviously is the case.

 

Hmm. Well, I'll bite.

Some background: I am a native English speaker. I also come from a country where English is one of three languages that are widely spoken (interchangeably; I've had conversations in all three languages simultaneously before). I empathise with how hard it can be to write in a second language, I really do - ask me to RP in anything other than English and I'll be sunk.

So ...


Do we cause problems?

Cause problems? No, certainly not - not any more, anyway, and never in any major fashion. I will be entirely honest here: there have been times in the past where I have gotten annoyed at how a question/statement/etc was phrased, only to realise - in hindsight - that that was not the intent of the user in question. It just happened to be that the English translation came out harsher than they meant.

Once I understood this, it was all good. I still have the occasional suspicion that, when I find a post aggravatingly argumentative, the poster intended to be so and I am cutting them too much slack but I like to think the best of people. We're all friends here, right? Right.


Do we lower the quality of games?

Certainly not. Don't you dare think so.

Roleplaying is much more than writing. The quality of the character, the actions taken, the thoughts and intentions and plans that drive the post ... there's just so much more than just writing, and in any case I'd choose you guys over some native speaker that doesn't know the difference between "they're" and "their". Good roleplayers are good roleplayers, regardless of language.


Or do we give something fresh to it, coming from another speaking culture?

I definitely think so. In fact, generally speaking I'm continually fascinated by the pattern of mistakes* made by second-language-ers and how it relates to the construction of their native language: native Chinese speakers don't make the same mistakes the Italians do, who don't make the same mistakes the Germans do. It's a small window into what writing in Chinese/Italian/German must be like, a window that I wouldn't have gotten any other way save actually learning the language itself.**

On a minor tangent, Chuks, I've found that people who learn any language as a second language seem to inevitably discover words that native speakers find 'obscure', or use seemingly ordinary words in an obscure (but still technically correct) fashion. I did this all the time when learning Chinese. I'm also one of those people who find wordplay fascinating and entertaining, so sometimes these word choices make me stop and think "hah, that's a great way to put it! "


So to me, it's all good really. Certainly sometimes posts are more difficult to understand than they should be, and sometimes a lot of problems can be solved by using a spellchecker, but that's not solely a native vs. non-native problem.


*'Mistakes' might not be the right word for it... sure, sometimes they're mistakes, but other times 'technically correct but not widely used grammatical constructions' might be more appropriate. My meaning is clear anyway, I hope.

**I'm aware this goes both ways: when I speak a second language with native speakers, they undoubtedly peg me as a native English speaker five sentences into the conversation, if not sooner.

 

Haha.... 4 posts in and people have already nailed my viewpoints on the topic.

The similarity of feelings on these boards regarding this issue is reassuring and lovely.

I don't know if this was purposeful or not, but I think the subject of this thread is a microcosm of everything that takes place on the RPFs re: language.

"Second Language Players ~ Rising a topic"

Technically, it should be "Raising a topic".

But hey, we get it right? We know what the thread is supposed to be about. And we understand that if we were to say the same sentence in German, we wouldn't even know where to start.

I would probably try to get close to it in Dutch, miss it by a considerable margin, and there you are.

Like Xan and Chukles say, do we notice it? Yes. Does it occasionally make things difficult? Sometimes. But its all about remembering who is speaking, their circumstance, and your circumstance if the shoe was on the other foot. I would hope that the English speakers here would adopt such a narrow focus to look down upon a person for missing a letter or choosing a peculiar synonym.

And like this threads title, I find a majority of the ESL (English as a Second Language) player's posts to be correctly worded and well put together. Therefore, little errors here and there do not detract so much.

Haha, IMO its the second language speakers that are far more critical of their own posts than the English speakers. You guys are always seeking excellence, and props to you for it.

I think it is also good to echo, as Xan says, that oftentimes native English speakers produce posts that are of a far lower quality than the ESL players. Putting everything in perspective, the ESL writing on the RPFs are of a very high quality.

If RPF continues to take on ESL players, it might be worthwhile establish a permanent thread here as a resource for them. But that can be another discussion, and one we can have when we cross that bridge.

-I_H

 

Now, I myself am a Native English speaker. In fact its the only language I can say I'm fluent in, the only other language I know any of really is German, mostly in part of listening to E Nomine on a daily basis. And I can say that in listening to it I've gained the ability to pick up on a few things when I see German in its written form, but i certainly am not fluent in it. So I for one enjoy the concept of playing with people who don't have English as their native language cause it does present to me an opportunity to learn more about another language.


Do we cause problems?
Certainly not, sure language and cultural barriers may spring up rough patches on the RPF highway but we're all mature players here and we can bypass that by working on it.


Do we lower the quality of games?
Nope, I'm sure that the language barrier might spring up grammar errors but hey, English is my native language and I suck at its grammar.


Or do we give something fresh to it, coming from another speaking culture?
Oh most certainly, varying cultural backgrounds lead to varying ideas. Certainly say, you LordT, might look at the same problem as me and come up with a totally different way of tackling it then I would. And this certainly brings a nice twist to games and character developments. So yes most certainly you bring fresh ideas into RPGs that otherwise might not be present.

 

So, I gave it a little thought. My own background is, that I am a german, SirakRomar´s little brother, as a matter of fact and did very little RPing in the final days of our own german site, before we closed it. Then I returned here to play and have stayed here since then.

I have never been good in english. Lately I have met a lot US people. Which might have improved my language use.

So, I want to be honest. It is sometimes hard for me to do it. Different then my german colleagues I have some disadvantages I struggle with.

1. I am not used to speak english to such an extend.
2. I am not a natural writer, as I would say people like my sister are.
3. I am not a veteran RPer. Most germans around here have played longer than this site existed. I am a Newbie. So I have to find my way of doing things.

Therefore I clearly have days where it is easier to make my post and days when it is less easy. Most english I use comes from literature classics (and I heard I use strange words pretty often) and I think I still struggle with understanding the more subtle meaning of some words. But I enjoy that part of playing, actually. I even believe that I often feel participating more intense in games, because I cannot read "over it" like that. I certainly feel I do so, in my own GMing. As I take several minutes for every single post to comprehend and understand it´s meaning.

So point by point.

How do you deal with the language issue, my dear non-english colleagues?

Well, like everybody else. I read and if I don´tb get sth. I ask or look it up. Reading all SW novels in english helps a lot, actually.

How hard is it for you to follow games?

Depends on the game and GM, but usually it isn´t so much of a problem. I could never join MASSES of games, as I need a little longer to read.

How hard to write updates?

Writing is the tougher part, than language. But very enjoyable, too.

Do you feel limited by the language? Forced to compromise your writing?

Limited by english, sometimes. Compromised, not at all. I could make things easier for me by not playing so "american" guys all the time. hard-Boiled detectives, cynic soldiers, exept Mr. Brandl, which I always perceive as a brit, I do a lot of characters which have an american accent in my head.

Dubbing is problem sometimes. For example I hear that LordTroepfhcen is doing such a great job with imitating Palpatines speech patterns and way of talking. Mostly fls (first language spekaers) told me. Also those ESL guys who wathc movies always in original. I love Ian McDiarmid. No doubt. I also think he is birlliant, ubt the RotJ Emperor in german is simply extreeeeeme good. I grew up with his hissing in my ears. I will always have this as my Emperor and therefore something in LordTs way of doing ihm is actually lost to me. But this is minor stuff. The fact that LordT is a German makes it rather ironic, doesn´t it? Again I wonder if he is better in imitating something, because his own way of speaking does not mess with his perception.

So, I may have more to say, once I find time to think of it. For now, my opinion on htat topic.

 

Aside from comma splices and sentence fragments, I take no issue with ESL posters on these boards.

 

I am actually sure we use perfect German comma rules. Just the wrong language. I often realize I have no idea how you do commas in english. But sorry, I probably won´t learn anytime soon.

 

Comma, splices, are, hardly, an, ESL, exclusive, trait, anyway.

Ditto. The. Sentence. Fragments.

 

Sentence fragments I use in full awareness. For effect. I like them a lot, also when I read books. Banville and Ellis use them, two f my favourites. But I see they are a matter of taste.

 

Seriously though, every ESL player posts more competently then some native English speakers do, so no complaints here.

 

^^^

This. I've never had a problem with ESL players or GMs. If anything I feel the loss is mine because I'm sure there's something lost in the translation that I'm sure I would have appreciated had I understood the original language. Having said that, I actually find some ESL postings have a certain ... "something" to them, a certain care and way of constructing the language that actually brings a smile to my face. It's cute, in other words.

I hate and do not excuse wilfully bad English from an EFL (English First Language, yes?) writer, but never if it's an ESL person. Partially because ESLs aren't wilful about any errors in English. Partially because they're never bad.

Just wanted to quote this bit because I want to say: please, do a character who doesn't have an American accent! There's at least two different accents in the Star Wars movies -- English and American, and I always thought Mon Mothma's way of talking and behaving marked her as more of a "Space French" woman; I tend to think of Chandrila, her homeworld, as "Space France" anyway for ease of use. Why not a "Space German"? If you start putting your own homes into your characters' languages, bearing in mind the international reader base we've got here, won't it make the whole RPG even more interesting to read?

I noticed that LordT mentioned how English is a beautiful language, and that Italian is a "soft" sort of tongue ... well, I'd always understood that German is a superb language for expressing technicality, method, and procedure ... I wonder whether Verpine language (as translated to Basic) sounds a lot like German?

I'm often tempted to try and play a little more in my "native tongue", so to speak, by finding a race who talks like an Australian does. One of these days a New Zealand RPer is going to show up and start playing the Mandalorians like the "Space Maoris" they seem to have become and it's going to blow everyone's minds.

 

You guys write better than a lot of native English speakers on these boards. Never you worry.

 

Hey, I was just saying!

 

No, no. I appreciate a lot you tell us. I think that is what we are here for. For example the short sentences. I sold myself above like someone who is using them with calculation. That is only half of the truth. I read John Banville, Brad Easton Ellis and Haruki Murakami over the last three years. All of all three of them, actually. They all used this sentence-fragments. They all tend to do unstable personalities. Or writing that reflects psychological exceptional situations. My characters have been influenced A LOT by their writing, because that is what english writing in my head has become. So, I do not realize that I actually use "sentence-fragments" and it exactly what I hope for when I joined this discusssion. To learn if these things are even perceived, by others.

One of the more interesting aspects is, how you write things and have problems evaluating certain subtle effects. While they seem to be part of our writing in public perception. Of my writing anyway. LordDarthUmbrus once told me he loved how I shot out my characters moves like a machine, once he went into aggression mode. That for example is a direct translation of German speech patterns into writing. And 100% unconscious. We had the first English/German Discussion ever, back then.

I also realize that all germans have different levels of familiarity with english-speech-rythm. So SirakRomar who spend time abroad always strikes me as much more adept in writing an "english person" than I am. While LordT made German grammar an element of style with his Hoole. Who he played 6 years in German and then eeded to translate him into English.

Actually we had a Verpine in our 133 ABY speak german But yes, it is pretty clear you got accents in Star Wars. You even got an accent continuity, with Obi Wan always played by brits and even done "british" in the TV-show.

Space Germans are going into planning. It´s an interesting idea. Maybe the Chiss? They always have something to Germany in the thirties, I think.

Germans precision in commentary is true, I suppose. It can also be a beautiful language, as our man great poets show, but needs a far higher degree of mastership to be so than other languages. I will never reach such heights. To old to do anything about it already . . .

I always imagined SirakRomar´s charaters to speak with german accent, actually. Which is funny, she is the only english-speaker of us who is 100% accent free in real life. I think one could write a special article about that perception thing. I actually could not play Disney, as I do know most charaters from it only from the german dubbing. And I know Draco´s feeling about the Emperor of LordT. When he is in "gentle evil Palpatine" mode I see how he imitates McDiarmids speech patterns. Because I´ve seen the prequels in english. I also watch the OT in english these days, but the Emperor will always laugh and say: "Deine Waffe. Die hättest du jetzt gerne, nicht?" before Luke tries to strike him down. And nothing else. I had nightmares about that words

 

Being familiar with translation efforts (Though mostly on the reading end, only the occasional Spanish project on the production end), I can say this is probably due to the whole art vs methodical approach to translation. A word by word translation will invariably lose some nuances, but if you translate too liberally you risk deviating from the source material... Really, anybody who's suffered through Henry Longfellow's translation of The Divine Comedy can see that it takes a careful balance, or you end up with... well, Longfellow's translation of The Divine Comedy (I'm obviously not a fan).

So... basically, I totally see how that could prove problematic.

 

Yes, translation is a high risk thing, from the art-point-of-view. We have Shakespeare translations to german, which are actually UN protected as ART in itslef, but not as tranlations of the euqally protected man from england. I love the German versions, they have an awesome power of words (the original is, without saying, by far superior, but hard to do every night if you are a Second Language speaker) but are only sharing the rough outline anymore. Being a total free interpretation.

So, I think one of the greatest hcallenges we faced was transalting german characters into English-speaking characters. (If I bore the hell out of everyone here, tell me )

In 133 ABY we have the collective mind of Xenly. The main threat to my players. In German he spoke in a very unique way, mixing his persona forms all the time. So you were not sure if he was one, many, if they had one though or were just speaking through one mouth, with many minds behind it. It was the TRADEMARK OF Xenly.

When he first appeared in 128 ABY in a brief scene LordT tried to make a direct translation of these speech patterns. Which was an interesting effect, but TOTALLY different from what it was in German. For 133 ABY I was aware I would feature him and his speech patterns a lot. So I gave him a lot thought. How the hell did I translate that without all my german players shout NOOOO that´s not him!


I decided to go for a language transporting the feel of Xenly. Without using the same grammar-mistakes he did in German due to his alien nature. I used broken sentences which were left unfinshed and I found it was a good way to translate the mixed sentences in German into English. I also introduced small and big letters, which are more important German to the English language. To make it fit with our continuity, I translated scene from the German campaign into English. And used this new pattern.
In short: I spend as much time translating the twenty dialogues he had in the game as I did with developing the whole other NPCs. Strange enough I found it to be a very satisfying work.

When TheSithGirly wrote me a PM with a PS: Xenly is still that old evil unwanted childe . . . I had a moment of enthusiasm, I must say. I had fought and beaten the barrier of language. I translated a character played by others (the deceased SonofZeus invented him, originally) for ages and made it work in English.

Why do I tell you this? To bore you with my idle internal thoughts? Partly, yeah. No, I wanna point out that this translation thing is sometimes . . . part of the charme playing a character for me. I actually prefer it. It´s a challenge. And having the feeling to get better, to get more able to do what you want with a post is actually . . . amazing.

I ALSO WANT TO POINT OUT that this is an amazing community. and I know a few. Maybe we would not have stayed, if we would not have felt so welcome and at home here . . . one has to point that out. I was never treated as a German, not even when the name circled. Always just as Fin, the fellow player. And i was welcomed and integrated very well back then. there is a perception that we played 128 ABY among ourselves for some time, but truth is . . . that was our plan back then. But players began shooting PMs rather early about character involvemnt and soon we had several English-speaking players in our plotline. And felt that to be totally natural and the language thing never came up until I won an award and people realized it. While doing my first steps playing here it never crossed our minds (I can speak for all our original members, I suppose). . .

 

Oh well, I feel writing in English is simply more cinematic. I hate it when you play in German and the game is set in the US. Same goes other way round. Having a game (or movie, that is) set in Germany and they speak denglish or simply English, that´s awful. The Fringe episodes in Germany were amazing comedy, but really awful when it came to German. Especially compared to very similar Flash forward Episodes who were a little strange, but the german was perfectly done by casting german actors. It can be that simple . . .

As I usually prefer to do canon-characters in Gmaes, I end up having to face their language and makie it mine. As good as I can. My grammar might be lacking, my vocabulary gets better, I´d say . . . but I am not such a great writer to do a thrawn or a Ventress in German. When I only know her voice in English.

So, I would never play Star Wars in German. And i certainly hope the fragments by DarkLordoftheFins TSotS who play in Germany will be done in German! I love when people in AFAs do Mando´a speeking, or when a player had his chinese character speak chinese in a hong Kong dialect, after all (however you pulled that off!). . . it makes things richer. When I find a good place to use my natural tongue, I´ll do i.t Until then I am stuck with English. No matter how unperfect it might be . . .


And Fin, I only realized Xenly was in English, once I reread the old german game. you translated his essence perfectly. And true, his speech was actually different. But similar enough.

 

I love the quality that anyone who does not have English as a first language brings to these boards. If anyone ever gets to meet me in person I could easily demonstrate why, but for writable examples sake that I can actually do, in part it would be because most of my favorite instructors and teachers throughout the years were not EFL's but ESL's as Saint put it. For some reason those different approaches all make a wonderful difference in the mere fact that one cannot simply skim, but must pause and contemplate, gaining understanding where they might not have of a post. Something which I think a lot of EFL's do when role playing sadly.

It also shows from the language in the fact of actually decreasing errors when it comes down to it from the wonderful ESL's, I rarely sit on a pot and fume from a response saying how I wrote my character wished to move but didn't actually do it...yet somehow is running four blocks away from where I left him last without a GM post inbetween to do so.

Speech pentamitor and methods I think also plays a large part in all of this though as well, although so far you have mentioned playing in a accent similar to the movies for such figures as Palpatine and Mothma or Obi-won. For example from DRL I can tell you that if I give a speech in a different accent such as an North Londoner(Something I can do without most people realizing it's not my natural route) I speak it completely differently then as a Dubliner, Russian, US southerner, or US northerner. Unfortunately despite having known several individuals I cannot do German in any steady or usefull capacity. But the point is, even without adding the accents the words flow differently in order and construction that shows in the typing...kinda 'A proof is in the pudding' anology to the posts on these boards.

To make all this much briefer:

Your pudding is...GOOD!

 

Iambic pentameter is the realm of Shakespeare, not the RPF.

 

You mean it´s dead? Nooooo!

 

Save the iambic pentameter for rich nobility, in any case.

 

So, for the lack of any idea where to post it, I´ll do it here. Somewhat connected to the topic.

More and more Germans come here. A question that came up half a dozen times over the last month was, what translation-software/spelling-correction we (the so called Panzers) use. So other players from Germany might try it. Actually no translation software is used by me. I know LordT and SirakRomar don´t use any, either. We write in English. Translation software would totally loose the sense of our words.

For spelling correction we use a special software we all got from a private firm, through which we access these boards. All that is written by us is corrected through it. It´s doing automatic spelling correction, except you turn it off. Which accidentially happens a lot. The software I cannot offer, but the same program was lately integrated into a special German-to-English Firefox. Only there you gotta push a button.

You can download it here at Golem.de.

I like it a lot. It´s very thorough, even if it needs a little time. But it´s by far superior to the word-processor correctors. Hope that helps. Try it if ou are a German.

 

Basic software is actually in every FF3, so the link you got there is a little outdated, Fin.

A better one, here you get the language packages. Check if you don´t have english on it, anyway.

Here you get a German explanation how to activate it.