Selective Services

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Imrahil, Aug 12, 2002.

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  1. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Because I don't think they're as fit for combat, there's the risk of rape if they are captured, better the women don't die, they need to have kids, and someone needs to stay home and run the country.
  2. stevo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2001
    star 4
    I think that your defense is very sexist.
  3. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    That's beside the point, Imrahil. You can talk all you want but you can't eliminate the need for a defense force. A war could still start. And if that happens, I'd say it would be nice to have some soldiers waiting in the wings, rather than just looking at the military and saying, "Oh well, this is it. I guess we're screwed. Sorry guys."

    Rebecca, please read my previous posts. Women make better nurses and are better at desk jobs too, by your reasoning. So should we make men do those things? I'd say that's pretty unfair. Men can also get raped or have far worse things happen to them. And there are plenty of people left to run the country, trust me.
  4. SCOTSSITHLORD Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 2
    This whole debate appears to be a little theoretical, like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. In modern warfare, with it's reliance on technology, particularly overwhelming air power, it's highly unlikely that any US citizen would be drafted against their will.
    If the US was to go through another Vietnam, they'd just pulverise it from the air from the start, and use ground troops sparingly, if at all. Wars are only costly politically speaking if it's your own side coming home in bodybags, if it's foreigners, who cares, this is the lesson of Desert Storm.
    As for national service, I think it has it's good points, but is wasted by concentrating purely on military matters. If the state can provide training for warfare, it should provide training for more socially productive work. The Land Army in WW2 was a good example of how to mobilise the populace for something useful.
  5. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Part of it's biology. However people developed, men were made physically stronger then women.

    And I don't think an unwilling army is going to do anyone much good.
  6. stevo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2001
    star 4
    You think all those young men wanted to be drafted in Vietnam? No, they didn't, but they still fought.


  7. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Yeah, and take a look at the conduct of our army in that war. *Shakes head*
  8. Imrahil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2000
    star 4
    Maybe if I saw the U.S. in a better light I'd be willing to fight her it. But as of now, I believe that the draft is wrong. But I do agree that my veiw might change in the future, who knows.

    Here's a point for debate. Do you beleive the draft violates of the 13th Amendment?

    Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
  9. stevo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2001
    star 4
    The reason we lost in Vietnam didn't have much to do with morale. It probably had some factor, but when compared to the mistakes we made there, its irrelevant.
  10. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    Because I don't think they're as fit for combat

    No? I certainly know some fit women and unfit women. You really can't base it on gender, you have to look at the individual.


    there's the risk of rape if they are captured

    Men can't be raped or otherwise sexually abused?


    better the women don't die, they need to have kids

    You need men in order to have kids, too. (Or were you planning to keep a few men at home for use as studs?)
    And saying that the women's job is having kids is indeed very sexist.


    and someone needs to stay home and run the country.

    Given the rest of your argument, I'm surprised you would give the women this responsibility.
  11. stevo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2001
    star 4
    Dammit.

    Darth Double Post
  12. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I do agree with you on the involuntary servitude. I don't think the government should force military service on anyone. I do believe that those that serve should receive better benefits than those that don't though.

    And Rebecca, I think your comments are incredibly sexist. I sure hope you don't consider yourself a feminist.
  13. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Take a look at rape statistics. Adult woman are far, far, far more likely to be sexually abused than adult men.

    Feminists are ridiculous. I do believe women should have equal rights in the workplace, but drafting women would be a complete disaster.

  14. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    From what you've said, you wouldn't be fit for combat anyways, so why are you so worried about it?

    Yeah, feminists are ridiculous. I hate having the right to vote and knowing that my boyfriend can't legally beat me.

    Also, there are things a lot worse than rape that can happen when in war. Just because this one thing is specific to women means very little.
  15. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Have you even heard some of the things extreme modern feminists have said?
  16. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I could point out a lot of things extreme pro-choice people have said too. You consider yourself pro-choice. That doesn't mean I hold it against you.

    This is off-topic.
  17. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    I really don't have anything more to add to this, anyway.
  18. Maveric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    I do believe women should have equal rights in the workplace, but drafting women would be a complete disaster.


    :D

    They should have equal rights, but when it comes time to defend them, oops, I didn't want those rights that much anyway.

  19. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    Physical strength is growing less and less important. Besides, I know several woman who I would bet against me hands down in a fight and who I feel(and they agree) would make worse parents then I would.

    To go off an the growing tangent it amazes me how some feminist are more virulent sexist then the majority of the men they deride.

    Thats another debate though.
  20. Admiral_Thrawn60 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2000
    star 6
    I believe women should be allowed to serve in any military occupation, including infantry, provided they meet the requirements. These requirements should be the same as the ones for men. If a woman can do the job just as well as a man, she should be given an equal opportunity to do it. However, if she cannot, she should not be given equal opportunity. In Canada, the fitness requirements for women are 1/2 to 2/3 the requirements for men, in the Canadian Forces. I think that's wrong. The infantry should focus on recruiting people who are best for the job. These people may someday find themselves in a combat situation, and it wouldn't do well to have a bunch of weak people in the infantry at that time.

    That being said, I also believe that it could create tension if you have women serving alongside men in the infantry, but it shouldn't be too much of a problem. I agree with Rebecca when she said that if women were drafted, it would be a huge disaster. You'd have one heck of a lot of women fleeing to Canada, I think.

    EDITED for spelling.
  21. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I'm not so sure that it would cause a disaster at all. I agree that the requirements should be exactly the same. There's no point in lowering them for women for the sake of equality. We want the best people we can get out there. And if it's true that women really are that much less physically strong than men, they won't be able to pass the requirements as easily as men and you would only have the strongest of the strong women that get drafted. I don't think the housewives really have to worry either, as the lottery numbers for those with families are that much lower than that of single women.
  22. Jedi-Jae Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 12, 2001
    star 4
    I believe women should be allowed to serve in any military occupation, including infantry, provided they meet the requirements.

    Hear, hear, AT60. I spent almost 10 years on active duty in the US Army, and I am currently in the Reserves. During that time, I saw outstanding soldiers of both genders, and I saw lousy, lazy soldiers of both genders. Other than the physical strength difference that becomes readily apparent in branches like the infantry, there are very few MOSs in which women would be unable to meet the requirements. As technology has improved and advanced, a soldier's greatest weapon now is his/her brain, not brawn.

    An an officer, I couldn't say I'd be thrilled at the prospect of integrating draftees into the service - it's hard enough sometimes to deal with the ones who volunteered. But the military has ways of dealing with those who are unfit - medical screening will get the ones who are physically unfit, and those who are psychologically unfit will wash out of basic training in a hurry.

    But as I said in a thread like this before, I'm a bit appalled at the attitudes of some people here toward our women in uniform. I would bristle at the implication that being a woman makes me a less capable soldier than a man.

    On topic - if we're going to have a draft, it needs to include women. Why ignore 50% percent of our available resources?
  23. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    How about because many women are mothers, or not physically fit enough to pass tests/training?
  24. Admiral_Thrawn60 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2000
    star 6
    On topic - if we're going to have a draft, it needs to include women. Why ignore 50% percent of our available resources?

    Because someone needs to stay behind and look after the country and production. If everyone's shooting and nobody's building, you're going to run out of stuff to shoot real fast.
  25. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    MOTHERS WOULD NOT BE DRAFTED. NOR WOULD WOMEN WHO COULD NOT PASS THE TESTS.
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