Selective Services

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Imrahil, Aug 12, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Imrahil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2000
    star 4
    Another point to debate:

    The draft dodgers of Vietnam, criminals or moral leaders?

    Discuss.
  2. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Thank you Saint. :)

    AT60, I see where you're coming from, but consider this, hypothetically: There are 200 people in the country. Half are male, half are female. In a time of war, you'll need 50 people to be drafted. If only men are drafted you will take the 50 most fit of the 100 men. All the women will be left behind. In this case a man who is married and has children may be chosen over a young, strong, single female. On the other hand, if you choose 50 people from both the males and the females you will get the 50 most fit people overall. The people who have families, are in college, or are older will be left at home in both genders.

    Personally, I think the second scenario makes more since, as instead of just leaving one gender behind you're leaving behind all the people who wouldn't be that great in a fight. You have the cream of the crop going out to fight, instead of just the cream of the male crop. (That sounds dirty, doesn't it?)
  3. Admiral_Thrawn60 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2000
    star 6
    That is a very, very good point you make, gwaernardel. Now that I think about it, it makes perfect sense. I agree with you.
  4. Jedi-Jae Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 12, 2001
    star 4
    How about because many women are mothers, or not physically fit enough to pass tests/training?

    I'm a mom, and it doesn't affect my ability to be a soldier. I understand your point, though, Rebecca - combining the military with parenthood is a very difficult task. However, the US military does not accept single parents into its ranks as new soldiers (parents who become single afterwards are a different story), and if there were ever to be another draft, I suspect that parents in general would be exempt.

    When I refer to people being physically unfit, I am speaking in terms of having some sort of medical condition, such as asthma, that would render them unfit for service. Poor physical fitness is a condition that is curable, and one that is seen in the all-volunteer force. You'd be surprised at the number of soldiers who come into Basic unable to do even one pushup or situp. That changes in a hurry, though.

    Thanks, gwaernardel, you put it much better than I did.
  5. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    I'm saying it's wrong to take mothers away from their children, fit or not.

    And you know what, if someone wants to be physically unfit, I think that's their right. Basic training is cruel to the unwilling, if you ask me.
  6. stevo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2001
    star 4
    READ WHAT PEOPLE POSTED ABOVE YOU !!!!!


    Women who are unfit or have children WILL NOT be drafted.
  7. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    But they don't seem to have a problem drafting plenty of other unwilling people, anyway.

    The draft as a whole is cruel.
  8. stevo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2001
    star 4
    The draft is an emergency measure. Its not like we have it annually. If people are drafted, its because they are needed.


    Its necessary.
  9. FlamingSword Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2001
    star 6
    Ooh, interesting thread.

    I see no reason to abolish the draft, in case the US gets invaded or there is some major world crisis. It's highly unlikely, but who knows. Someday something could happen. And if you're willing to enjoy all the benefits and rights your country has to offer, you should be willing to defend them.

    As for women and the draft. I think women should be drafted. It's fair and there are plenty of women who would be capable. Plus, as has been pointed out, there are plenty of military positions that don't require strength if that's lacking.

    womberty: Men can't be raped or otherwise sexually abused?
    Yes, they can, just as much. However, the countries that US citizens are likely to be caught in (if there is a war: Middle East, China, etc) have lower standards of women and are likely to rape women more than men.

    Also, there are plenty of peopple in the US and I doubt they would draft both parents, single parents, incapable people, pregnant women, etc. But all this has been pointed out numerous times.

    I think the analogy gwaernardel made was very good. Couldn't have said it better myself.

    However, I don't think they're going to change the draft anytime soon to include women. There is no demand for it by anyone and there isn't a great need for the whole draft idea right now as it is
  10. Maveric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    It most certainly is necessary. If you had the choice of serving your country or dying by being raped/slaughtered/etc etc and see everyone of your loved ones meet a similar fate, would you not choose to fight to insure that scenario would not occur?
  11. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    If neccesary, I would defend my own family or myself, in my own home, if neccesary. But I would not ever go to a foreign country and fight in a war. It's a psych thing I guess. I can't stomach killing another person, but I would do so if I had to in my own home, if me or my family was being attacked directly. Not overseas, in some war I may or may not agree with. Does what I am saying make any sense? If not just let me know and I'll try to explain it better.

    Oh, and since pregnant women obviously couldn't be drafted, don't you think it's possible young women would delibratley become pregnant to avoid the draft? Do we really want this happening? It's something I could see myself doing if it was really neccesary. I can't bear the thought of ever fighting in a war. I probably would never worry because I have minor psychological problems that would probably be enough to prevent me from being drafted.

    And they use the draft when it's not even an issue of a war we have to win or there will be grave consequences. What if it's used for another Vietnam-type war?
  12. Yodave27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2001
    star 4
    Here's my $.02.

    Do I think the draft is wrong? No. Would I want to get drafted? Of course not. But I doubt we'll ever see the need for another massive land war.

    On the issue of women, if the choice was presentedd to me of sending either myself or my girlfriend/sister/friend, etc. going off to war, I'm going first. That's the way it should be. Part of today's society has been the de-balling of men. I know some of you are going to rip me for this, but real men never send women to do their fight. I'm going to protect the females around me at whatever cost. There was a time when that was chivalrous, now it's considered chauvanistic.
  13. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Oh, I don't know about that. I think a lot of fathers would be furious if their daughters were drafted, brothers angry if it were their sisters, and of course husbands and boyfriends will be furious if the girl they loved were drafted.
  14. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    Hmm, if there were to be true equality among the sexes, would not women be requried to sign the draft card as well?

    NOOO! BOOOO! people would say, but for the sake of arguement, it is not fair to me as a male that I must sacrifice my life for my country, when the other sex does not. Once again, I am arguing on the basis of true gender equality.

    However, we are different sexes, with different biological make-up. There are differences among the sexes that we cannot ignore. Men are better able, physically and mentally, for the harshness of war. Fine. Women are better able, physically and mentally, for the harshness of rearing children. Fine. Both are true, in the majority mind you. There are plenty of examples of exceptions, but the majority still stands. Fine.

    I'll go to war if the woman stays home with the kids.

    But guess what, women ONLY staying home is sexist, while men ONLY going to war is not?

    Hypocracy rides again.

    Ciou-See the Sig
  15. chibiangi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 4
    Men are better able, physically and mentally, for the harshness of war. Fine. Women are better able, physically and mentally, for the harshness of rearing children. Fine. Both are true, in the majority mind you.

    I'd love for you to prove those statements with something other than your opinion.
  16. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Well, it's simple biology about men on average being stronger. And women are the only ones that can give birth. For the mental issues of raising children or fighting in a war, I guess women are by nature more nurturing.
  17. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Rebecca:
    If neccesary, I would defend my own family or myself, in my own home, if neccesary. But I would not ever go to a foreign country and fight in a war. It's a psych thing I guess. I can't stomach killing another person, but I would do so if I had to in my own home, if me or my family was being attacked directly. Not overseas, in some war I may or may not agree with. Does what I am saying make any sense? If not just let me know and I'll try to explain it better.

    So you would fight to protect your own house but you wouldn't fight to protect your right to own a house?

    Oh, and since pregnant women obviously couldn't be drafted, don't you think it's possible young women would delibratley become pregnant to avoid the draft? Do we really want this happening? It's something I could see myself doing if it was really neccesary. I can't bear the thought of ever fighting in a war. I probably would never worry because I have minor psychological problems that would probably be enough to prevent me from being drafted.

    Then why are you worried? Also, there have been plenty of men that didn't want to get drafted who drank themselves into oblivion, gave themselves psychological problems, and starved themselves just so they wouldn't be fit to go. Making yourself unfit is definitely not something reserved for females.

    Yodave:
    It is chivalrous of you. It's very nice that you value women so highly. However, I value all humans highly and I'll fight to protect them no matter what gender they are. Die for whoever you want but you're the one that's dying for it. I'd rather die for my freedom than die for a gender but hey, that's me.

    Moriarte:
    NOOO! BOOOO! people would say, but for the sake of arguement, it is not fair to me as a male that I must sacrifice my life for my country, when the other sex does not. Once again, I am arguing on the basis of true gender equality.

    If you'll look around there's not many people disagreeing with you, on the boards at least.
  18. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    But our society, our culture, says otherwise on the whole. If I were to address these ideas in public, no matter how I support myself, it would fall on deaf ears because "women shouldn't go to war"...and I would be labeled a wuss, draft-dodger, less of a man, or any number of insults.
    All because I'm following gender-equality to a conclusion that not a lot of people care to look at, and that is the requirement of BOTH sexes to sign that draft card, in order for there to be true gender equality.

    Ciou-See the Sig
  19. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Actually, if the Equal Rights Amendment ever gets ratified it will pretty much guarantee that women will be drafted.
  20. Gutter_Monkey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2001
    star 3
    Somebody said earlier that the military would be a 'good experience' for people with mental disorders, and therefore they should not be exempt from the draft.

    HUH?

    The LAST thing the government wants to do is to induct mentally unstable people into a traditionally stressful environment unwillingly, and then TEACH THEM HOW TO KILL.
  21. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    The LAST thing the government wants to do is to induct mentally unstable people into a traditionally stressful environment unwillingly, and then TEACH THEM HOW TO KILL.

    I'm sure they'd love to have a pool of recruits that are able to follow simple instructions without questioning them.
  22. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Actually, if the Equal Rights Amendment ever gets ratified it will pretty much guarantee that women will be drafted.

    Well, I hope it's not then. Anything that limits the draft is good, IMO. I would love to see it abolished entirely.

    And you do NOT want people with mental problems in the army. I have small ones, I guess you could say I have anxiety problems. I'd be absolutley no use in a war.
  23. Maveric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    Gutter Monkey

    Is the last line of your sig pertaining to me?
  24. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    Anything that limits the draft is good, IMO.

    Hey, I know! Let's limit it to one race, too. That way you can be sure that no one in your whole family gets drafted, either. Wouldn't that be great?
  25. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.