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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

[Senate] Proposed Rules Revision

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Jabba-wocky, Jul 24, 2013.

?

Should The Senate Reconsider Its Forum Rules

  1. Yes

    84.6%
  2. No

    15.4%
  1. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    That's because it's the umpteenth time. I'm tired of it.

    The debate started even longer ago, on the temp boards. I was involved and concerned. Wasn't even a mod yet.
    Then the Senate was merged and I became a mod. Again I fostered the debate. All very civil and dignified, listening to all parties concerned.
    Then the suggestion was made to unmerge. Again, I fostered the debate. All very civil and dignified. Listening to all parties concerned.
    Then the Senate was unmerged. Again, I fostered debate. But got called a douche.

    Now, I've been called lazy, disgusting, suffering from autism and otherwise reclusive within 24 hours. If you want a mod that will still foster civil and dignified debate in the face of that, you should beg Lowie to come back.
     
    Violent Violet Menace likes this.
  2. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Perhaps a revamping of everything Senate related is in order since so few people post there now?
     
  3. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Yes, it's definitely time for an assessment. Just leave me out of it.
     
  4. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    When and where was this? Because there was no public debate about the split. Moderators simply posted an announcement about the date on which the pre-determined split would occur. That's why there was so much furor.

    EDIT: What exactly are the Senate moderators for if they want to be uninvolved with the only issue impacting their board?
     
  5. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Again, Wocky, don't ask me to fill the gaps in your memory. Look it up.

    I don't need to be involved in this discussion. There's nothing that has not yet been discussed ad nauseum. You guys just get consensus on what it is you want to do and let me know the outcome.
     
  6. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    I think the poll in this thread speaks pretty strongly to what the consensus is. If that's all we need, there's not really a reason to delay.
     
  7. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Great but you're going to have to talk to DarthBoba and Mod Squad.
     
  8. DarthLowBudget

    DarthLowBudget Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2004
    I get that, and I'm sorry you've been called those things, even though I don't think I was ever one to do it, apologies all the same. It's unfair and it shouldn't happen.

    At the same time, I understand the sentiment that motivates those responses. What you characterize as a long debate is not widely perceived as such. Though it had the appearance of a debate, it mostly seemed like opinions were ossified and a decision had already been made, especially in the final thread, where the split was announced. While I'm a little murkier on the degree to which debate was fostered in the previous cycles of the discussion, I think I can say pretty fairly that debate was not fostered in that thread. In fact, everyone involved seemed a little surprised by the decision, both in its conclusion and that it had even been made in the first place. People seemed to feel that it didn't take into account the desires of the userbase at large, and that led to the perception that there hadn't been any meaningful debate, because whatever public debate might have occurred had been rendered meaningless by a behind-closed-doors decision.

    I guess the last question I have, if it's not rude to ask, is if you have found, or continue to find, the job of being a mod so thankless, why continue to do so when you the only way to feel comfortable doing so was to modify the board architecture in a way that a majority of interested users seemed not to care for? Why not just slacken the rules, or stop being a mod? What compels you to be a mod, and a mod of the old Senate in particular? Why is that particular formulation of the Senate so important that you're willing to put yourself through this? Thus far, nobody has managed to help me see what sets the Senate apart these days, other than an old set of rules that don't seem to be followed very much, and a specific userbase.

    And again, I want to reiterate that I'm sorry if you feel you've been ill-used or ill-served by any of the users in this debate. It's really crummy that people have behaved that way.
     
  9. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    That's something of a problem as DarthBoba refuses to appear. In light of that, all your current position does is lock the status quo into place while allowing Senate moderators to ignore the concerns of the user base. That's exactly the issue Recession Spending raised, and how all of these "discussions" keep going. You'll forgive me for not giving you all much credit for that.
     
  10. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    DLB, since I've witnessed this debate from the outside as a user and as a mod in a fairly short time span, I can safely say that whatever gets decided on a message board will be perceived by those who are against that decision as not taking the desires of the userbase into account. Because message boards aren't democracies. When this discussion started on the temp forum, it seemed to me that no amount of debate would influence the decision in MS. But when I joined MS, I learned that the only difference there is that it's a bit more neutral. Not as heated. For the rest, similar arguments are used and discussions there mirror discussions here. In the end, however, I have to say that most mods deferred to the Senate mod's opinions. And it was my opinion that unmerging was a good thing to try out.

    Had I known to what havoc that would lead, I'd have thought twice.

    What compelled me to be a Senate mod is that nobody else wanted the job and I felt responsible. That situation is changing rapidly though.
     
  11. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 1999
    You were right. It was a good thing to try out. I think your reasoning was perfectly reasonable. It was worth trying in my view on the slim chance that a separate forum would be more visited than the sadly underutilized Senate tag in the JCC. But the odds were, you know, never in its favor.

    I have zero interest in seeing the return of the Senate tag in the JCC and hope that does not happen. but having some kind of debate/discussion tag may be ok.
     
  12. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    I'd be quite down with a "serious discussion here" tag for Community.

    Jabba-wocky: Endlessly tagging me is not going to make me ignore my wife and or my job (where I've been all day) to reply to you. Or, for that matter, take your ideas seriously.
     
  13. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    I've not asked you to. I understand that real life can be busy. But if it's too busy for you to keep up with the goings-on in your own forum, perhaps you'd do better to step down.
     
  14. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    Oh, sure. I'll be glad to keep up with goings-on in my forum caused by people who don't actually post there.:p Stop repeatedly tagging me, k?
     
  15. Yodaminch

    Yodaminch Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2002
    From my perspective, and I imagine many others posting, any offense for the Senate existing as a separate forum has to do with HOW its formation came about. We were told, without any prior discussion, without allowing any room for discussion, that the Senate was splittng off. And the JCC users were basically given as the reason. This is what created a bad atmosphere. It was a split that very few agreed with and was done without the majority's consent. This move was unilateral and one many predicted would fail--and it did.

    Wocky, Knightwriter, Harpua, myself and others argued against it then. Wocky attempted then to generate discussion about changing the rules then. It fell on deaf ears. The decision had been made and that was it.

    What further upsets us is that the justification for its existence was never solid to began with and remains poor. By the logic we have been given, SFF, Arena, Amph and Census could all have been split off as well. Regardless of what the mods and other Senate users felt, it came off like they wanted their clubhouse back and decided to kick everyone else out to do so. Which is why it's a laugh when the excuse for our not going to Senate is that we're too lazy to click over there. It's entirely the atmosphere that's been created as a result of this split. And because of that, I'm pretty much in agreement that the name Senate has become tainted and perhaps, if it is to be merged back, the name of the tag should change.

    The first happened yes. And at the time many Senate regulars stated they liked the new blood that happened in the temp boards. That's why the decision was made to keep it merged.

    But as to the suggestion to unmerge, that was NOT discussed with users. We were told it was happening and tried to discuss it after the fact. We were basically blown off because no one really wanted to hear it.
    And it was that move that has led to this negative view you encounter. And while I fully understand you are frustrated and tired of dealing with it, this clearly hasn't been resolved and is not going away. Comments like this:

    Do nothing constructive. And it is that attitude, which I fully get is born out of frustration, that has led to the way things are now. To answer your question, it's not playground power, nor is it about having fun causing a ruckuss. It's about the fact that the Senate has no need to be treated like the special forum it is when other forums have adapted and survived. When it did, by the accounts of many regulars and many other users, just fine in the merged Community forum. And most importantly, when the Senate users and moderators do not even follow their own posting styles and rules-which were so sacred that they could not be compromised when part of a merged forum and were given as one of the reasons for leaving.

    It's not about one board vs. another board either. And that's another problem with this perceived us vs. them. Talking to us like we are foreign invaders only furthers this idea that the Senate is isolationist. It's akin to the comments that "If they want to come, let them come" when we were essentially thrown out of the forum. Until users are ready to accept that the Senate is the problem, not the Community, I don't know whether there is anything worth discussing. All evidence points conclusively to the Senate being the problem and not the other way around. Suggestions have been given to address this. Had we done this in the first place when wocky suggested it, perhaps you and DarthBoba could have avoided some headache. We didn't, so here we are.
     
    harpua and DarthLowBudget like this.
  16. LostOnHoth

    LostOnHoth Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2000
    No respectable Comms thread is complete without a call for a Mod or Mods to stand down.
     
  17. FatBurt

    FatBurt Sex Scarecrow Vanquisher star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2003
    This is true


    I also believe Everton should step down over this outrage!
     
    DarthLowBudget likes this.
  18. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    DarthBoba, this hand-waving dismissal of concerns and suggesting "we don't post there", as if we have no idea how vibrant and thriving the Senate is, isn't helpful. Sorry, it's just not.

    Do you want to know why I don't post in the Senate - a forum I put a hell of a lot of time into developing during my tenure there - anymore?

    Two reasons:

    1) I've done my thesis and I've worked in international affairs and you know all about my work from our chats. I've no interest in debating it in long form.
    2) I'm in Community, dropping into threads based on topic. I don't want to leave the Community to go to a secluded boys club for no good reason

    That's just me. I think part 1 is uniquely my problem (but then again, you are calling me out) but part 2 is probably a more universal problem than you'd care to admit.

    The simple facts are these; from the temp boards on, you became a part of a wider community which means you are, like it or not, beholden to that community. You took a decision to exclude yourselves from it without discussion and this was after you'd already resisted the urge to reform and change with the times. Amphitheater wasn't precious about things, why was Senate?

    So this decision, taken without consultation, has seen discussion stagnate to 4 topics a day and most of us either cannot be bothered going in there, or don't feel welcome. In simple terms, the de-merger was a failure. We're calling for a remerger and if needs be, a review of the management responsible for the decision. Call it shareholder activism if you want; sadly the overwhelming bulk of opinion has fallen into two categories; 1) Yes, bring it back or 2) I don't care. A few people have said leave it, in response to the perceived arrogance of the split; none have said it actually makes more sense and works better.

    So, with due respect, public opinion is not on your side here. Hence, dismissing it in the manner you have isn't helpful or particular fair.
     
  19. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000


    @Ender_Sai: Except that there was discussion taken. In Mod squad. You know, the guys who actually make decisions about things like this? You're welcome to have your opinion, but expecting the mods to be beholden to it on this single topic when literally no other management decision has ever come out of the user base is rather strange, I think.
     
  20. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    How does this response make sense?

    It is, at worst, caused by people who want to post in your forum. And it is clearly an issue about your forum, regardless. When or where has it ever been the case that moderators could feel free to ignore the input of people who aren't forum regulars? Can we troll or flame people so long as they don't post in a forum on a weekly basis? Did only those who posted in the "Episode VII and Beyond" forum have a right to offer input about how to best operate the Episode VII NSA and SA forums? Why did you have any say at all in resplitting the forums, seeing as it impacted Community, which you never really posted in?

    Quite aside from being hypocritical, your position here makes sense, and clearly does not accord with the duties of a moderator. Rather, like this whole process, it's a thinly veiled excuse, reeking with contempt, for you to continue doing what you want. I look forward to the moment when you actually decide to participate in this discussion.

    Prior to making a final decision, several venues for user input were created before the merger. This gave them investment and voice in the process. There was no such process prior to undoing the merger. That is the real oddity.
     
  21. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    I hold, it seems, a fundamentally different view on how a Mod should view their duties. My view, and the way I acted, was as if users are constituents. So actions should be taken in their best interest, and where a conflict exists - like this - I'd seek user input.

    I cannot see evidence that this is what occurred since there's no clear benefit to the forums as a whole for the split. Roughly speaking, between six and ten members benefitted from this decision.

    Moreover, I recall from my time in MS that mods are generally not that interested when it comes to Senate issues, which I understand would have worked well for your purposes but does not suggest to me that the decision was really the right one.

    Now, to your points:

    1) So you're not beholden to users, but users are beholden to a mod's whim? (rhetorical - obviously the answer is unashamedly "yes")
    2) You deprived the community of a part of it; it's arrogance to assume they have no say.
     
  22. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001

    The Arena.

    The Arena was driven by users.

    As a Mod, I opposed it. I was clearly wrong.
     
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  23. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000


    If you want to post, go ahead. No one's stopping you.

    Ender Sai: I'm honestly more sick of this conversation-which we've had about five times in the last year- than anything. You and JW think the Senate should be re-merged; fine, great. It didn't work the first time, so why would it now?
     
  24. DarthLowBudget

    DarthLowBudget Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2004
    Except, DarthBoba, that in the past discussion in Mod Squad has generally followed on from the feelings of the users. Hiding behind modsquad (which seems like it was more apathetic towards the split than anything, and which does not speak well for the Mods in general, actually) hardly bolsters your argument. Nor did the way the decision was presented, or the way it was designed, or the way it has turned out. It's a failure all around, it seems, as far as the larger Community is concerned. And what else is the administration about, ultimately, other than fostering the community here? On that score, the Senate unmerge ranks as a failure as well.
     
    Ender Sai and Bacon164 like this.
  25. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    There are a great number of things stopping me, all of which we are trying to address in this thread. Though, as is increasingly apparent, one of those issues is an obstinate, imperious moderator who only ever takes out time to comment when he's belittling people that disagree with him on forum policy issues.

    According to whom? Both at the time of the original announcement and now, supporters of keeping the two merged seem to greatly outnumber those who thought a split was necessary or useful.