Sensing other force users.

I thought this may be a pretty interesting topic.

A few times in the star wars saga force users sense other force users, What exactly do they sense?

For instance, Darth vader senses obiwan on the death star.

VAder sense luke.

Qui-gon and obi sense maul on tatoine.

Amidala seems to even pick up on maul when they decide to detaur him completely and leave the jedi to take care of him, even though two jedi and like 40 lasers would probally be instant death for maul. lol

Do they suddenly just think of the person randomly? if it was someone you know like vader and obi-wan.

do they just get "a bad feeling about this"

And for instance i know the sith supposedly have the power to cloak their presense as to not attract alot of attention unless they want it. How would that work? do they just not protect themselves and use the darkside?

Is it that obvious to all force users that they easily recognize each other?

 

My guess is that it would kind of be like ripples in water. Normal people don't make the ripples, but Force-users do, and it sends waves through the Force that can be felt by other Force-users.

 

"Is it that obvious to all force users that they easily recognize each other?"

Force users can be sensed, but they are not always recognized. Also, Force users can hide their presence.

 

Also, it's not always an easy thing to do out of the blue. In ESB, Vader has to send out probe droids to search the galaxy for Luke - he is not able to simply "reach out with the Force" and figure out where he is.

However, once the probe droid on Hoth sends back a signal, Vader is able to direct his attention to that planet and he instantly knows that "the Rebels are there!"

Similarly, in ANH, Vader has to interrogate Leia to find out the location of the Rebel Base, he can't just use the Force and instantly determine its location.

 

...nor does he sense her relationship to him. We see what we seek, and miss what we don't.

 

Well, Leia didn't know about their relationship, so Vader couldn't have learned anything about that relationship from Leia.

 

Agreed. It just goes to show that there's more involved than just "sensing".

It just occured to me - is there something like this to explain Vader and Palpatine's inability to sense where the rebel base was in ANH and ESB?

Vader couldn't "sense" it until seeing it on the monitor.

This, I will have to ponder...

 

As I see it, Vader and the Emperor are unable to detect the location of the base because they have no clue, no direction in which to direct their Force senses, and the galaxy is just too big to search the whole thing using the Force.

When Vader sees the "fragment" of a transmission from the probe droid, he immediately directs his attention with the Force to Hoth, and he immediately is able to sense that the rebels are there and "I'm sure Skywalker is with them."

Luke at this point has a strong enough presence in the Force to distinguish himself from others, but not strong enough to create a "disturbance in the Force" - that doesn't happen until later, until he meets with Yoda and begins his Jedi training.

As for the Emperor, I think it's harder to tell. Because he's so overconfident, it's possible that he knows a lot more than he lets on, and just lets Vader take his time finding Luke because he thinks Luke poses no threat to him and he wants to let Vader be the one to find him. (cf. Emperor's dialog to Vader in ROTJ)

 

Ah, but don't forget Palp's words in ESB. He knew Luke to be a threat, and wanted Vader to kill him as soon as possible. It was Vader's suggestion that saved Luke's life.

Something else just occured to me...

"He must not be allowed to become a Jedi."

Might this be a tenet of the Prophecy?

 

Amidala seems to even pick up on maul when they decide to detaur him completely
I think that was just a case of not wanting to cross the path of one seriously bad-### looking fella!

it would kind of be like ripples in water...Normal people don't make the ripples, but Force-users do
I have always like the idea of a force user's ability to sense another force user, in comparision to ripples of water...because it would explain both Yoda's ability to hide, and Vader knowing Obi-Wan was onboard DS. If you can think of that "ripple" effect more likie a soundwave (as in the Daredevil movie) Vader could sense Obi-Wan's pressence because of the close proximity to someone using the Force (even a little.) However, Yoda managed to avoid detection on Dagobah because he was surrounded by all kinds of life and used his powers sparingly...blending into the "background noise" in the Force.

This kind of "sensing" an opponent is very much like the effect in "Highlander" where immortals could sense the approach of a potential enemy as they grew closer to them.

 

Yeah, do they ever explain in highlander why exactly they can sense each other?

Also why are the highlanders so hostile towards each other? for the most part they are always trying to kill each other off.

 

"like the effect in "Highlander" where immortals could sense the approach of a potential enemy as they grew closer to them."

..and even in that film, McCloud was distracted long enough to not immediately sense Kruger at the zoo. (Not that this is scientific proof or anything. )

Agriias, those were just plot points. Just as there could only be 2 Sith, as far as immortals go, there could be only one. Besides, McCloud was the only highlander, and not all of the immortals hated each other. McCloud met his friend Kastagir - who, BTW, played Panaka in TPM.

 

God, you people who don't read the EU are so Force-Blind.

GO READ THE REAL STARWARS STORIES.

 

Amen.

 

The movies can and do stand quite well on their own, Terz.

 

We're not here to push EU onto people, just as we arent here to tell EUers that its irrelevant. So please dont start with that sort of posting, Terz. I wont tolerate it.


As for the topic at hand, I have to echo the basic thoughts other people have posted.

I think when near enough to another Force user, then Jedi would pick up on the ripples. I prefer to think of it in terms of magnetism, rather than water. The closer the two magnets are, the more attraction they will have on each other. Ditto Force users.

Yoda can hide because he is on a distant planet, well away from the only three Forces users around in the OT (Kenobi, Vader, Palpatine). Its possible the high numbers of life forms can shield him, however if that was the case, he may as well hide out on Coruscant, because there are plenty of life forms there too.

The most interesting aspect of this whole discussion (and might have relevance for Yodas hiding), is definitely how the Sith are able to cloud their presence from being felt. The fact that Palpatine spends so long on Coruscant, so long in the company of the Jedi, yet noone feels him (although I think that Yoda suspects). I could only guess that the Sith had learned how to augment the 'vibes' that they were giving off. Somehow blunt the strength of the 'magnetic ripples' . I really hope that Lucas explains it in Ep3, because it'd be quite interesting to learn.

 

"Its possible the high numbers of life forms can shield him, however if that was the case, he may as well hide out on Coruscant, because there are plenty of life forms there too."

But this doesn't explain Obi-wan being able to hide on a desolate planet like Tatooine, so there's got to be something else as well.

"The most interesting aspect of this whole discussion (and might have relevance for Yodas hiding), is definitely how the Sith are able to cloud their presence from being felt."

Something Luke was able to do in ROTJ as well.

 

Here's a little something I've been meaning to throw in here...

From the OS: The Sith

The dark side, for all its power, is ultimately hard to detect when required. A shadowy master like Darth Sidious was able to keep his presence a secret, even when sharing a world with the Jedi Temple.

Here is "sensing" information from the films...

(This is an amalgamation of several posts regarding Force detection. I've done a quick edit, so I hope it's readable. Special thanks to Darth-Sinister, who may recognize a significant portion of this. )

Sensing is not an exact science.

It's not really using the Force, so much as it is learning to mind their thoughts. I'll explain why this is and use examples from the films.

First of all, the Jedi have been totally unaware of the Sith's continued existence for a thousand years.

Lucas said that it's like walking into a fog. The Dark Side is everywhere and the Jedi are having trouble sensing it. Obi-wan senses something in the Force, but he doesn't know what it is or where it's at. And because Qui-gon told him not to center on his anxieties, he didn't investigate it further.

When Obi-wan and Qui-gon arrive on the Trade Federation ship, they can sense the fear and unease from Nute Gunray and his associates. They feel that fear like a beacon in black of night, but they haven't determined what that fear is all about. They don't dig deep enough, instead they choose to wait until they meet for the negotiations. Had Nute and Rune entered the conference room, it wouldn't take long for the two Jedi to determine the reason behind their fear. That they had an invasion army and were dealing with someone sinister.

Not long after meeting Padme, they discover that she's pretending to be a handmaiden and not her true role as the Queen of Naboo. Qui-gon uses this to his advantage when he takes shots at her on Tatooine. Lucas makes mention of this in the TPM DVD commentary. The reason the Jedi know this is because she has had little experience around Jedi, virtually none and she has no idea that they were on to her from almost the beginning.

Darth Maul had to rely on trace from the location device on the Nubian, to find them on Tatooine. And later had to rely on the probes to find Qui-gon. Neither Force user detected the presence of the other on Tatooine.

When Anakin meets with the Council, his thoughts are like an open book to them and thus they know what he's thinking about. It is in AOTC that we hear Obi-wan tell Anakin to mind his thoughts and feelings. He knows what on Anakin's mind and he totally disproves of it. As a Jedi trained in the Force and knowledgeable about how their thoughts and feelings can be sensed, they must take extra care not to be discovered by their peers or enemies. Yoda senses something from Palpatine, but he isn't sure what it is.

On Geonosis, Obi-wan does not detect the Dark Side in Dooku. Nor does Mace Windu and the rest of the Jedi.

Anakin tells Padme on Naboo that they could hide their relationship from the Jedi, in effect living a lie. Padme's not comfortable with this as she knows that the consequences of doing that would be devestating. However they decide to get married anyway and try to keep it hidden. We already know from Ian McCraig that Padme's going to try and hide her pregnancy from the Senate and the surviving Jedi, in episode 3.

Also, on Tatooine in AOTC, Yoda senses Anakin's pain through the meditation of the Force. He also hears Qui-gon Jinn at the same time. Later, chasing Dooku on Geonosis, he senses Anakin's anger at leaving Padme behind, which is why he asks for his ship. It's not until after Dooku uses Force lightning that Yoda even mentions the "Dark Side". Pretty big hint, that lightning.

Of course, at the end of the PT, Obi-wan and Yoda were able to fake their deaths and the Sith had no idea of this.

In ANH, Obi-wan felt the massive distrubence from Alderaan

 

Interesting! great post!

So guess alot of the probing they do and the sensing comes down to whats projected. so for instance if im a jedi and there is a sith across the room. If both of us kept our thoughts blank and feelings in check without focusing on either we would probally remain undetected to each other. Whereas if one of us was sitting in the room trying to sense others and in his head focusing on finding a sith or if there were other force users here, the presence could be sensed.

 

This will probably lead to another discussion, but what I don't get about the Force is this. At the end of TPM, Yoda, Mace, and the rest of the JC are standing there paying homage to QGJ, discussing the Sith...with Palps standing right there!! Fast forward to the opening of AOTC, what, the 5 top-ranking Jedi are in the same room(again) with Palps, and Master Yoda says..."the Dark Side clouds everything." THEY ARE SITTING ACROSS THE TABLE FROM HIM!!! Does the Dark Side cloud their vision soooo much they can't see the evil in the same room? After talking to Padme', while Palps gets up and walks AWAY FROM THEM, you would think they left the room and said, "wait. My Force vision is clearer now that we are out here...."

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!

 

Does the Dark Side cloud their vision soooo much they can't see the evil in the same room?

Obviously, yes.

 

I think it's been made pretty clear that it's not someone's ability to use the Force which can be "sensed", but the actual act of them manipulating the Force, and the disturbance it creates.

Similarly, the recognition of people through the Force only happens if it's someone they already know- Vader senses "a tremor in the Force. The last time I sensed it was in the presence of my old master." However, I don't think he is sensing Obi Wan's ability any more than you could sense an individuals academic achievements from their passport photo alone. (Sure, if you already knew that the person had scored straight A's, you could match the grades and the photo, but you'd need to know that in the first place.)

Regarding why the Dark Side can't be sensed, I think that the Jedi Archives provide the perfect analogy to illustrate why this is so difficult;

The Archives are supposed to be analagous to the Force itself- when it is as it should be (ie. "in balance") everything throughout the Republic (and probably more) can be learnt about through the Archives, or the Force.

The reason the Jedi can't see Kamino in the archives is obviously because it has been deleted- there's nothing there for them to see; the "natural" state of the archives has been disturbed. However, Kamino isn't impossible to see in the archives; they can see the spot where it should be- the planet is missing, but "gravity's sillhouette remains." Look at the choice of words here- I think it's clear that Lucas wrote this line specifically to evoke the image of the Dark Side, and the direct parallels with the Force. (In scientific terms, I believe the concept would usually be described as "gravity's footprint" or something similar.) It's not Kamino that is seen in the archives, but rather the shadow of what should be there. It's not until they know that something is wrong and exactly where to look that they can see what is at work.

Just as it's only once the Jedi know about Kamino's existance that they see the problem with the archives, it's only when they know about the Clones existence on Kamino (of all places...) that they realise that there is a problem with their ability to use the Force.

When the Force is in balance and the Dark Side isn't influencing things, the Jedi can see things through the Force with clarity. The Dark Side changes this- it "clouds their vision." And like the archives, the only way the Jedi can tell that their vision has been clouded is when they discover that what they see isn't what is really out there, and it's time for them to re-evaluate what they think is going on around them.

This "clouding" isn't something that is noticable in itself. It's more like your blind spot- the spot where your optic nerve connects to the back of your eyeball and your retina can't process images- you simply don't see that you've got a blind spot until something falls in it and you notice it's gone- and you have to be specifically looking at this (the best bit is that you also can't look at it directly to see it) for the effect to become noticable.

So that's what has happened- the Jedi have a great big blind spot. And here's how I think it works;

Imagine that a Jedi is meditating on the fate of an individual through the Force, who they see is going to go to a bar and meet a man, who will shoot him dead. The good Jedi sees this as fate's unfolding- the Will of the Force- and despite his personal feelings, allows things to pass in this way. All very clear and simple.

However, suppose there is also a Sith/Dark Jedi, who is meditating on the same thing shortly afterwards. He sees the same fate playing out, and decides that he doesn't like it- he's going to mess about with it. So he interferes with destiny in some way- lets say that he arranges for someone to meet the individual who is going to get shot beforehand to give him a warning. Fate doesn't play out in the way it was going to because of this intervention, the guy gets spooked because of his warning. However, it's not fate which ha

 

I agree with you Scott3eyez but that really doesnt explain the whole palpatine thing, I know that the darkside clouds everything as master yoda has pointed out many times, but how can one sith lord cloud the minds of yoda, mace, mundi, fisto at the same time in AOTC when they are all sitting less than 10 feet away. It just seems alittle strange, you would think they could pick up something, unless palps is a clone, but we won't get into that.

 

The point is that he isn't clouding their minds- he simply isn't leaving any clues for them to see.

He isn't directly using the Force, so there's no disturbance for them to sense and trace to him. He isn't going around meeting Kaminoans, bounty hunters, Neimoideans etc. so there's no paper trail there.

It doesn't take any special mind-scrambling skill- there simply isn't anything there for the Jedi to pick up on.

 

Great thread - we were discussing this in another thread. And as we went through the various situations, it was very clear that:

A) Any theory which would explain all of them would be fairly complex, almost too much for the casual audience.
B) The inconsistency is so great that perhaps there is no method to the madness.

------------

Here's two possible theories in reference to Force Sense.

Theory One is a combination of of different sensing which make up the various examples described here.

1) There is a strong relationship between the two parties. Both of the parties know each other extremely well. The Force sense establishes a connection when one is thinking/seeking the other.

2) The particular instance is only a 'ripple' in the Force not necessarily attributed to a specific person. Just weird feelings such as Obi-Wan at the beginning of ANH.

3) The person does NOT sense or the signal is weak due to one side of the Force having advantage over the other. (This relates to a theory in which Dark Side is able to be stealth in the PT because the Jedi are still so strong and the Sith are 'hiding.' But when the scales tip to the Sith in the OT and the very few Jedi are hiding, the Light Side has the stealth advantage.)

So - Theory One is a complex combination of different situations. So each Force snese is really not the same, as it is being applied differently amongst those three. Pick a situation and apply on.

------------------------

Theory Two is something that I started tossing around as a result of this discussion.

Anakin/Vader as the "Chosen One" and being the most 'able' to speak to the Force is like an amplifier for the Will of the Force.

This is something which might be applied to Force Ghost as well.

Anakin has this ability to 'magnify' the Force and make small ripples and communications be felt by other Force users. Through Anakin's existence in the physical world, force ghost communicate through his 'vehicle' so to speak.

So his birth is kind of opening a door to the Force which did not exist prior.

If you look at 95% of the situations where force sense is used, they revolve around Vader or Anakin. In some instances such as the Emperor sensing Luke has grown strong in ESB could be the Emperor sensing the disturbance through his apprentice, Vader.

This would explain the change from PT to OT on which side of the Force is dominant and which side is 'hidden.' Anakin switches and the other side is constantly drowned out by his polarization so to speak.



Just theories - feel free to bash either one...