Discussion in 'Literature' started by QuiWanKenJin, Jul 17, 2017.
It could have been worse.
Invincible is very dark and depressing and unlike the NJO there is no light at the end of the tunnel
I thought I'd jump into the discussion here because of the Rogue One comment. Rogue One is a terrific movie!
I liked most of NJO just like I liked most of TFA. I am rooting for the new continuity to be as good as the best the EU had to offer and not as bad as the worst of the EU had to offer. So far, the highs have not been terribly high (Timothy Zahn's trilogy is going to be a tough watermark to reach) and the lows have not been terribly low (there is still a chance for the Ordu Aspectu/Rur story in Doctor Aphra to be a footnote worth forgetting in Jedi history.) There is still plenty of time for Disney to impress or depress.
I always felt the NJO was Star Wars' version of the Borg story line in Star Trek.
It was an extremely heroic ending for the character. If you have to kill off the character, that was the way to do it!
I'm hopeful the ST won't end with the end of the FO. I always though ROTJ was too quick of an ending for the Empire and I think a single trilogy would be too quick of an ending for the FO.
I personally was never impressed with it. Han's death had much more of an impact imo.
Okay First answer Darth Invictus's question.
It could have ended with Ben trying to save Tahiri, and they both drown. Maybe even Tahiri kills Ben and then horrified at herself, silently drown herself.
and rjrjr you can just use edit option to near the report link and write your further thoughts. The way you keep on posting separate posts with individual thoughts/questions, the mods will be angry because it may be a ) distracting and b) resource hog. It's called stack posting, and a no no.
Anyway answers to your questions.
1) We are all hoping for better Star Wars. I and others may are a bit bitter that all EU is gone, even the TTT. I'll never see Mara Jade or Tahiri or Corran Horn again. They may introduce someone called Mara Jade, Tahiri or Corran Horn down the road. It won't be the same.
2) For Borg story, read the Dark Nest trilogy by Troy Denning. NJO is not a Borg story. It's the Eastern front European WW2 or the Asian theater of WW2 in SW. What with a huge unknown invader that kill all rape all loot all burn all(Japanese or German) and Peace Brigade (Manchukuo, Wang Jingwei nanjing government, Vichy France) and heroes (Jedi == guerrillas, All sorts of Resistance movements) and finally winning with outside help (Allies == Empire)
3) Agree there
4) While I hope the FO doesn't get destroyed so easily, I don't want SST (Sequel Sequel Trilogy). They can just film anthology films if they want to keep making films. But if we have SST and SSST, and SSSSSSSSSSSS trilogy.... We'll be stuck with journey to ..... blah blah blah . Then any books would be irrelevant. They wouldn't matter.
Actually Han's death had a lot less impact ironically because of Harrison Ford's griping over 40 years to kill Han. So by the time he actually does die, all I'm thinking is--ok Harrison's finally getting what he wanted. Or the filmmakers are giving Harrison what they think he wants (from what I read, it seems Harrison had mellowed by TFA and actually hadn't ordered JJ to kill Han, but the writing team no longer knew what to do with him. Not surprising considering for all the options they could have done with such a rich character, they just had him smuggling like he did back in ANH).
That combined with Kylo's stale character (in my opinion--we still don't know why he turned evil or what he has against Han and Leia, but so far he makes Jacen look deep), and Han's death felt really flat.
Yeah I'd heard Harrison Ford wanted out and so that scene loses any resonance it would otherwise have.
Chewbacca's death and Han's reaction to it was far better from a story and literary perspective.
I think it wasn´t just Harrison Fords wish that got Han killed in TFA.
If you look at it they probably allways planned to kill one of the big 3. And from them Han is the logical choice, Luke has to stay alive for at least a while to train the new main Jedi protagonist, Leia leads the Resitance and is also the only woman among the OT main cast. Han on the other hand isn´t needed as both a mentor or leader so killing him of doesn´t affect the story as much as killing Luke or Leia would.
As to Chewies death, well they wanted to kill Luke and than had to go with Chewie after Lucas veto. And while Han´s reaction too it is certainly sad, its later ruined by him not caring when his sons(seemingly in Jacens case) die only a few books later in SbS.
Especially if you consider that Chewie was over 200 years old at that point.
Wookiees live along time.
Also Han's reaction and the way he treated his sons later(the pattern wasn't excusal but his anger, sadness, and void certainly was.
Chewbacca had been his friend, his wingmate, his buddy since he defended Chewbacca from an imperial slaver.
It's understandable his reaction wouldn't be to just let it go.
Yeah but they were his children.
Honestly I've seen villians who were better fathers than Han Solo.
Han's attitude toward Jacen in LOTF is very bad and the way he treats Anakin after Vector Prime is terrible but Chewbacca was more than an acquitance or worse a pet. He was Han's oldest friend, someone who had been there for him for decades, fought with him, outran imperials with him, they had been through thick and thin and seen it all.
In a lot of ways Chewie was the last real line connecting Han to his life before ANH. Losing that certainly was devastating.
[hl=saddlebrown]I have merged your four posts into one.
Please, when you wish to make several different comments in quick succession, use one post to do so. You have a long enough edit window to make any changes you require. Thanks.[/hl]
The FO could be defeated in ST with remnants of the faction still causing some trouble post ST. A path that doesn't require another Empire to come about and gain power the level pre-fall FO had.
One thing I might be able to excuse about the ST is the lack of worldbuilding-Abrams predilections aside its difficult to get the idea of the state of the Galaxy from a 2 and a half hour movie. Is the resistance a proxy force? Is the NR weak? Is the FO the empire or simply a terrorist remnant?
The movie doesn't say and it doesn't bother explaining these things.
Now with general audiences this is probably a point in the movie's favor given the hostility to trade agreements in TPM, and I remember on Twitter people bashing the seven forms of lightsaber combat(for what reason other than a disdain for depth or the EU I have no idea).
Simply put casual Star Wars fans couldn't care about worldbuilding and that is part of the reason people didn't like the PT. The NJO does and references a lot of worldbuilding.
To further go off on a tangent expanded universes(in Star Wars and Trek as examples) scare and upset people. There is all this material that casual fans don't read or see and when they discover it their reaction is a knee jerk hostility or surprise. They thought they knew the movies and everything and yet a bunch of novels they've never read and never plan to read tell a continuing story? To some casual fans that's simply not right.
To use the Trek example I recall somebody giving a general summary of the novelverse and somebody recalling "that needs to be cleaned up"- ie rebooted. And it wasn't the silliest or ridiculous stuff just that the story past Voyager had continued I think upset that person(I was lurking on Reddit I don't post there) and reading this exchange.
The ST doesn't rely on expanded universe material and the NUEU will simply fill in the gaps, deal with movie plot holes or questions and not tell their own story.
In summary the NJO was controversial, it did have a lot of violence, it did challenge conventional ideas regarding the force, it did have a different villain a great many fans weren't comfortable with but it told its own story. You loved it, hated it, thought it was average, whatever but it told its own story boldly and ambitiously.
The ST is a call to nostalgia-for those kids that were blown away in theatres in 1977. It also makes appeals to those who were angry or upset by the prequels but it is walking the path of the OT. It retreads the OT as has been stated many times.
In conclusion it isn't telling its own story, now yes they could add details, or shift certain plot points but still it is the OT with younger actors, an unashamed appeal to nostalgia, and a little bit of anti-prequelism thrown in. The NJO is independent I'd say even of the OT in its plot, themes, and drama. Yes the characters are the same but they have grown, and the challenges they face are so very different.
In the end, that is why the NJO is better-fresh, bold, and ambitious.
Was it necessary to declare a whole new "Expanded Univese" then?
Darth Invictus, if your logic is indeed right, then shouldn't Disney declare, from now on only movies are canon. Enjoy the books! i.e. what ST did before they declared canonicity for their books.
I didn't know and I appreciate the heads up. I'll be more mindful of this in the future.
For the original trilogy, the downfall of the Empire in the 3rd movie was too soon IMHO, but the Empire had been ruling the galaxy for about 20 years before A New Hope. Imagine if the First Order is defeated in the 3rd movie of this trilogy? They just became really active in the 1st movie in the trilogy and haven't even laid claim to the galaxy yet, although I expect that to happen in the 2nd movie. That would be an unbelievably short lived rise and fall IMHO. In the very least, there should be a battle for dominance in the galaxy that lasts a while if the First Order is not able to secure a victory out of the ashes of Hosnian Prime. I would have no problem if they spent 2 or even 3 trilogies dealing with the First Order.
Hosnian Prime was the site of the government for NR
If things were realistic then the entire Senate and the Supreme Chancellor should be dead.
Who's going to lead the NR. Would the rest of the NR recognize that person's authority?
Because there is still money to be made, after all hardcore fans are the most reliable buyers of a particular for franchise.
Also the Trek novels aren't canon-it's like only the last decade the writers and editors have decided collaboratively to treat the Trek novelverse as a unified story when it wasn't before(or at least only loosely).
Making everything canon is better for marketing as well-a wholly integrated chain from the tie in novel to the big screen film without the complications of the Legends tier system which worked in terms of defining what was canon and what wasn't(Chee and Hidalgo deserve credit for that) but was poor in terms of marketing efficacy. Disney sees the canon from a marketing standpoint and a streamlined canon is far easier to market than a complex multi-tiered one.
Legends was tie in as well but because of their being no movies could and did transcend just being tie in marketing fiction, the NuCanon will never have that oppurtunity.
Like DC, not all Representatives and Senators are at the capital at all times. Also, it should be easy to hold elections, and have a military office or a surviving Senator or high-level take charge temporarily.
It all depends on if all the worlds still believe in tne New Republic and can still rally (especially in the immediate aftermath, which it looks like TLJ will focus on).
The cynical side of me believes the NR is gone. After all the NuNR is more of a loose confederation. I can easily see most of the member worlds panicking, and seceding, preferring neutrality.
I'd be A-OK with the New Republic falling apart after the destruction of Hosnian Prime. A bunch of little kingdoms the FO and the Resistance have to vie for instead of the overall behind-the-scenes approval from the NR.
Now that the Last Jedi is out, now might be a good time to revisit this topic. (Please black out any spoilers for the Last Jedi as a courtesy for those who have not seen it yet, but plan too.) After seeing how the plot of this trilogy is shaping up, NJO to me is a much better story option, than what this trilogy is turning into, hands down. Feel free to sound off below. (If you are going to do some flaming, please keep it to a minimum.)
At least they attempted to craft a believable setting and likeable characters.
And it was clearly planned out more than the Sequel Trilogy is...