Sexual Harassment

Why do people keep saying that? Do you know how many people post on this board and do not visit comms? Do you know how many people over the years have interacted with HWSNBN and are currently not present? The word of mouth campaign will only go so far. Especially if this thread is not stickied and the soon to be MS statement does not clearly name or at least clearly outline who it was. And even if the latter occurs, there are still some who will not know and will just make assumptions that may in turn smear someone innocent.

 

I think Guy and I are just talking about everyone who regularly visits Comms, plus the JCC-a-holics crowd. But I definitely agree with the notion that this person be officially named by MS. The JC isn't just Communications and the JCC. I think to highlight the gravity of this man's offense to all of us, he needs to be named, and to help people all around the JC understand to just what huge extents some types of people will go to satiate twisted needs. And, of course, there's the more practical reason that people can be on the lookout should he start stretching out his tentacles elsewhere than the JC Forums.

 

Ian is correct... only a fraction of users actually read comms, I'm sure.

 

Oy. Well, I never post in comms and almost never have any idea what's going on behind the scenes here. I had absolutely no contact with this user, had zero personal opinion of him, didn't have an impression of his reputation one way or the other. So I can't really comment on this particular situation. But I will say that it's probably no secret I've been a strong advocate for more strict enforcement of sexual harassment rules here. To be fair, when it's happened to me and I've reported it, it's been dealt with. I feel very badly for the women and girls for whom that might not have been the case here. They have every right to be mad at anyone they feel let them down. It makes sense.

What I did want to comment on was... well, here's the bottom line. This is not just a board problem, it's a cultural problem. Sexism and objectification of women is so disgustingly commonplace in our society I can't even believe it. And frankly, this is a male-dominated, male-run forum. I think it's fare to say every single female here has been the target of some kind of uncomfortable or unwanted comments at one point or another. And I think males by and large are completely unaware of this fact or this climate. Or if they are aware, they have the luxury of being able to turn a blind eye or brush it off. Because- let's face it- this place is a testosterone overflow station. The climate at times reaches the point of being toxic, where one guy says something and it catches on and suddenly some woman in the pic thread who simply wanted to share an image from a vacation or something has been thrown a flurry of inappropriate comments laughed off as jokes.

But it's not a joke. Let me repeat, it is not a joke. As a woman, there are realities I have to deal with every day that I am aware men would never think twice about. Where I go, what time of day I go places, who I'm with, what I'm wearing, how I act. And that bleeds onto this forum, too. Women here and in RL are often disinclined to report it for a variety of reasons that have been listed. But I also think that there's sometimes there's a feeling of, "What did he just say to me? That is not okay... but no one else seems to think so. Maybe I'm just overreacting. I'm probably overreacting." Obviously reporting things is important. But it can't just be that. Sure, each person has different "lines", but at the same time there are overall tones taken towards women that men here just need to stand up against.

Reporting is retroactive. By the time it's reported, something's already gone wrong. Someone has already been hurt, in some cases clearly many people. I personally know that being sexually harassed here- even when the MS takes action on it- is a horrible, horrible thing. I applaud 506 for his swift action on this. But I think part of a sexual harassment policy needs to have something to do with preventative measures, not merely after-the-fact action. Psychologically, the more something happens, the more accepted it is and the more people join in. I just think we need to carefully think about that, and not just our punishment policy.


EDIT: I agree, we can't just keep this here. I don't normally read comms, I just came back from a vacation and this issue was pointed out to me. I agree that this person deserves not a drop of our protection. Just because someone is banned here does not mean they drop out of the internet. This person still has people's e-mails, IMs, and perhaps even phone numbers. It is the duty of the MS to name this person. This is not a normal case of not discussing bans. Not at all.

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

I agree with Rachel. What can be done to prevent, not just punish? Great points.

 

*Sighs*

Yes, we all know who it is and now...

Is time to shut up.

Point has been made and now you all are just stretching things out. In truth, if the guy wants to, he can always get back up here and there's nothing no one, besides Internet Jesus, can do about it. Its an evil that is common and is going to continue to be common.

You can't put up a solid wall and say "Perverts on this side, all the pretty ladies on this side."

The "victims" need to speak up and stop being exactly that, victims. I feel some sympathy, but only to a limit. If you continue to put up with something that's wrong, then you are part of the problem. The "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" philosophy works here because there is no grey area for this type of stuff.

Simply, victims speak up, mods step up, perverts shut the hell up, and then move on.

Problem addressed.

(Notice I didn't say problem solved.)

-B-

 

Let me guess - are you a straight white male?

 

No, black, but close enough.

-B-

 

The issue at hand was, if you're being harassed by the head admin, then who exactly do you go to? The owner who would have just shot it back to the head admin and asked "Hey, what's this?"

It's mostly that issue that we are working to create this policy that will help prevent an issue like this from coming up ever again. We're not saying that a user's never going to be harassed again; there's no way we can promise something like that. What we can do, however, is to ensure that should it happen, it gets dealt with swiftly and thoroughly and isn't allowed to carry on for over 5 years.

 

Aaaaand bluebeast just illustrated what I was trying to say about male ignorance on the board. Hush it up and put it away and stop unsettling you with this fact? Well I'm sorry but the women here have to deal with this sort of thing and don't have the luxury of turning a blind eye to it. Gee, I'm sorry this conversation annoys you But it's far from over. There are important things that still need to be discussed. And no, only a small fraction of users know. Again, I would never had known this was even going on had a friend not pointed it out to me.

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

This just happened tonight... ironically it involved somebody who has been very vocal (and somewhat nonsensical) in this thread.

Hey... I likes me some innuendo, you know. We all joke around with eachother and push limits. What it boils down to is personal threshold. Saying something when somebody is out of line as far as your concerned is key. If you simply tell somebody, "please don't talk to me like this," and it continues, there's a problem.

We all have our limits and the only way to be sure people stay within your boundaries is to make them clear. If somebody is going beyond those boundaries after being told where the line is drawn, then action needs to be taken. I hope this is what is being drawn out in the policy under construction.

But there's always a case when somebody sneaks in and gains your trust, and betrays it. That is what happened here.

I think the ms is doing everything correctly, as far as I can see. This type of thing takes time.

I'm just as pissed off as all the other [numerous] women who have been affected, but I'm really trying to take a step back and look at this rationally.

I feel like I've pretty much regurgitated a lot of what has already been said, but yeah...

 

Its blubeast and avoid calling me ignorant if you will. For someone who wants to take a stand for harassment, you're calling me ignorant while contradicting yourself.

I can see this conversation will lead nowhere.

G'day.

-B-

 

I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say in this post. With all due respect, I don't know why you're posting in this thread either. Bye.

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

It was ironic before that incident.

 

Yeah, it definitely was... but the thread was extra special ironic.

 

I can appreciate that you just got here, so I will just quote Ophelia since it seems some people have not read the entire thread.

 

Says the person who chimed in first by telling everyone to shut up. Of course once again the statement "Yes we all know who it is" holds no weight with you based on your registration date.

 

Yeah, as others have said, basically, blaming the victim is never a constructive policy, and only serves to revictimize and create and amplify fear.

 

Yeah EF, I had read that and I understand the situation in regards to Wise's policies. However, I do not think that changes the facts of what should be done. If people were willing to stand up to Wise to protect themselves and their privacy, why not for others?

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

Well, let me put it this way . . . MS can choose to fight on one front, with the owner behind us, and have a shot at undoing some of this damage.

Or, MS can choose to fight on two fronts, with problem users on one side and the owner on the other. This fight would not last long, since we'd all be demoted. Then we'd be replaced, and of course no other problem user could ever, ever be mistakenly promoted to MS in our place--especially in a last-minute, mass promotion.

I actually resigned a week ago--I can fall on my sword any time I like. However, I like to think I'm slightly more useful covering for mods on vacation than I would be while demoted and banned.

I agree that we could really use some boardwide sensitivity training, although it would have to be done in a JC-friendly way. Lectures and stickies and stuff nobody listens to are not going to help. Instead, all of us need to be more willing to tell--and hear--the truth in the course of our everyday conversations.

Instead of forcing a smile and saying, "Oh . . . ha . . . heh. Joke. I guess it must be funny, then. I don't want to look unfunny, so I better laugh," people need to feel able to say:

"I really don't want to talk about that."

"I don't know if you realize this, but that came out sounding really sick."

"Dude. Not funny."

This doesn't mean gurlz vs. boyz. It means targets of unwanted sexual attention and the bystanders need to agree that they don't want sex talk used as a kind of weapon on their messageboard.

We're not going to get anywhere until both male and female bystanders get tired of watching people get humiliated and insulted.

If the banter's consensual, then there's no problem--talk about your boobs all day long if that's your thing.* We just need to get to a place where, "Okay, boob conversation's over. Next," is respected.

* Actually, please don't.


We'll get there by just taking a risk and being honest. The thread harpuah linked to is just really regrettable in so many ways, but it is an example of someone refusing to go along with a "joke" that went too far, and the rest of the community supporting her in rejecting the problem behavior. It was very clear to me as a moderator what the target of the harassment did and didn't want--she posted her wishes in the thread. It was clear what the community would and wouldn't accept, because they posted their opinions too--without going over the line into vigilante flaming. So I was able to get in there and get rid of the unacceptable stuff very easily. Nobody needed me to give a long complicated speech about "gray areas" and "moderator discretion" at all. They told me what was and was not okay.

That's how things need to work if we're serious about getting rid of sex talk used as a way to isolate and belittle people. If the users of the boards themselves look at this behavior and say, "That's disgusting," then there's actually very little left for moderators to do.

 

Yes, a mass exodus of mods is the last thing we need right now. The lead 506 has taken and MS has followed, calm, measured, assured, is exactly what we need right now. People resigning in protest on mass is the last thing we need. It won't achieve anything. It won't move us forward. And it won't help those that have been harassed.

I would be interested to know how much input Philip Wise is having in all this at the moment? Is he helping MS draw up the statement thats coming? Will we be hearing anything from him about this in the forseeable future? I realise he's a very busy man, and likes to leave the JC to the mods and the users, but with something as serious as this, I would like to hear a few words from him.

 

Trimmed only because it's a few post above - but yes, everything Haps said.

The biggest thing we are feeling as a community is the violation of Trust, and even more sadly, it comes at a time when we as a community are coming down from a little party celebrating 10 years of being one. It wasn't just joe random visitor who's hurt us, but a long standing, very active (near icon) of the family (who even served as the patriarch of said same at one point, and active in many, many forms). Even those who weren't directly involved are feeling the sting of betrayal, after all, it was one of our own!

Over the years, outside of the 'official' gatherings (such as Celebration) the community has had little gatherings where we finally get to break through the final wall and meet face to face. We've celebrated marriages and births, and grieved the losses of people we've never met face to face together - this is a terrible blow to our community, and I'm sad to think that this incident has irreparably damaged that sense of community...

 

This is what absolutely must not happen. The JC must come out the other side a stronger unit. A better unit.

 

That's well and good to say, Everton. But for the victims, at least, their sense of security within this community fold has been damaged, and that's not something that's just going to fix itself with time, or even ever. This is part of what makes sexual harassment so harmful. It makes the individual feel unsafe and less comfortable in situations where they shouldn't have to be. And this sense of safety having been breached lasts long after the perpetrator has been removed from the equation. If he did this once, can't he do it again? If he can do this to me, can't anyone?

That said, the best thing we as a community can do is remind these individuals (and you can bet not all have come forward, and the ones that have not are the ones who need this assurance the most) that what went down was 100% not their fault and show our commitment, as a community, to make sure that this behavior (and the individual who perpetrated it) will not be tolerated around here again.

 

Is e-harassment really that traumatic? I've been harassed here (not sexually, but I've had a bunch of people call me "idiot" on numerous occasions). It doesn't really bother me.

Women- There's no use crying about "how the world is" or on what happened. Focus on what you can do to avoid harassment in the future.

1) Do not respond to someone that is harassing you. By giving him attention, you are only giving him life. If he persists, report it. It's that simple.

2) As for dealing with people who have befriended you, perhaps there should be a "safe word", whereby he would understand that you are seriously offended. If he doesn't stop immediately, then, as lousy as it might be, you have to report him.

3) Do not encourage harassment. For example, maybe constantly mentioning that you have a vagina and making generally disgusting remarks isn't the sort of behavior that encourages people to treat you with respect.

For the women who are suffering, change your thinking. The problem is entirely in your mind. If you don't think about him, he goes away.

Self-pity is not a habit you want to cultivate.