Sexual Harassment

That is the most condescending and stupid thing I've seen in this thread, next to beezel's points-system "solution". Have you ever been sexually harrassed, assaulted, or abused? If you had, there's no way in hell you'd be saying what you just said. Just because it's online doesn't make it any less real.

 

Oh geez....

 

For the women who are suffering, change your thinking. The problem is entirely in your mind. If you don't think about him, he goes away.

I don't think it's quite that simple. This makes it sound like you're putting the fault on the woman (or man - they're victims as well). The problem is never the victim; the problem is the person who took things too far. No one "encourages" harassment. Whatever you think of the remarks people make about themselves, those remarks should never give someone license to harass.

Yes, everyone here should be empowered to speak up, both to the administration and against the harasser. But reducing this issue to a mental state of the victims doesn't help.

Is it traumatic? Absolutely it can be traumatic. It's degrading and humiliating for people in real life. I think it's even worse online, where you have no idea who the person on the other end is. The threat you can't see always frightens you more.

edit: bah, grammar

 

The ironic part about that post, besides the fact that it adds more responsibility on anybody female or male that are harassed by SOMEONE IN AUTHORITY over them, regardless of the venue, is that it was your 666th post.

So, congrats on making it a good one.

You seem to miss the fact that when these things were happening, that there was no higher up to go to and complain to. There other admin to speak to, and in hindsight maybe that should have been done. However a complaint such as that would have more than likely been intercepted by the abuser, and repercussions would have been made. At least that's the fear that a lot of the women here thought.



Why didn't the harassed users just not leave? Why should we have to? Many of the users here have friends, ones to share fandom with, ones we get to vent to, people that we actually care about. Why should users be made to suffer and forced out because of explicit sexual harassment, by someone that basically had the keys to the front door of the MS?

No, many people kept their mouths shut, and honestly, that's what they thought they had to do if they wanted to remain here. Mods aren't to blame because of no one really speaking out. I do think it's irrational that so many seemed to have been in the dark. However, I'm giving the ones that were on his staff the benefit of the doubt. The current MS, especially the ones that have joined the staff after he stepped down, other than possibly hearing rumors, there's no way you could have known. Even the few that have problems, and technically you are ultimately responsible for the wellbeing of the community, the situation was handled swiftly. You got the important part of the process done already. I'm not sure how much you're concentrating on a revision of the sexual harassment policy, but it defaintly needs to concentrate on unwelcomed PMs.

 

I am surprised to hear that there are people who really thought that this community was immune to human naure. People can be thoughtless, stupid and predatory. When those human factors come out on the board we need to be prepared for it.

 

I hope everyone can see the wisdom in what harpuah is saying. While I understand the need to vent emotions, at this point we are focusing on moving forward.

We have a draft of a general harassment policy (which obviously includes sexual harassment) just about ready to release. I'll leave the big speech to 506, but it does address many of the concepts harpuah and others have mentioned in this thread.

 

After reading this thread a few times, I have finally figured out who everyone is talking about. (OMG, go me... only took me like... forever ) And I am in complete shock. I respected this man. I trusted him. It makes me sick to believe what he did to people in this community. I never had any sort of relationship with him other than him as the authority figure, but I would never have guessed that he could've orchestrated something as horrific as this.

I can only imagine what the victims of his harrassment must be feeling and I just want to say that I am so sorry that something like this happened to you. The world isn't right sometimes.

In the past, I have gotten unwanted PMs from a user (mind you, this was many years ago) and things crossed the line a little, but I never reported it. I felt like it was my fault that he had crossed the line, like I had invited it. So I just pushed it under the rug. I realize now that my response wasn't the best idea, but at the time I was much younger and had never had to deal with a situation like that before. And in my situation it wasn't someone that held such authority over the entire forum. So I can only imagine how hard it was for HWMNBN's victims to come forward.

And to all the people who are blaming the victims, shame on you. Sexual harrassment is only to be blamed on the harrasser. The women aren't "asking for it." Unless your definition of "asking for it" is having a vagina, breasts, and posting a picture. (Hell the third part isn't even a requirement.)

Anyway, I would like to applaud the administration on their handling of this situation. (But also, I really think that the name should be published. People who don't know who it is could still be respecting this predator. But I realize that you guys apparently can't do that anymore. I really think that Wise should give a statement on why the name will not be named though. I'd like to see his reasoning.)

 

I think the fact that the harassment happened online does make it less real.

For example, if you were a 280 pound man saying what you said to me in person, I might feel threatened. Since we're online, I don't feel one or the other. I don't care.

The problem was the user. The user is gone. Therefore the problem is gone. The only problem that remains is in the mind of the victims.

Indulging in self-pity will only intensify the feelings, and draw them out. Generally speaking, the less fuss you make about things like "betrayal", the faster they tend to pass.

I am not blaming the victims. I am saying that women should be conscientious about their behavior. For example, if a naked girl is playing with herself in a guy's living room, he doesn't have the right to rape her. However, no one in their right mind thinks that this girl is doing a smart thing.

@ASG I wasn't looking back at the situation that occurred. I understand that it is difficult to make a complaint against the top person. I was talking about going forward. Hopefully the current top person isn't a *****.

GK edit: Sorry, can't use that word in that manner.

 

The problem was the user. The user is gone. Therefore the problem is gone.

...

@ASG I wasn't looking back at the situation that occurred. I understand that it is difficult to make a complaint against the top person. I was talking about going forward.

So, are you saying because one person who did this is gone, there isn't anyone else who might do this? If you think that, you're fooling yourself. Sure, this one particular user won't be harassing anyone on these boards again, but thats not to say someone else want - which is why we need to be prepared for what to do when that happens.

And telling victims of such harassment that its all in their mind is akin to baiting, not to mention extremely rude and insensitive.

 

I have not said that there will never be another instance of sexual harassment.

I do not mean in any way that the women are "crazy" for feeling how they do.

I am simply stating that nothing good ever comes from indulging in negative emotions and am encouraging them to refrain from doing so.

 

Despite his soon-to-be-edited language, wannasee makes some good points. The best mods can do is ban harassing users. Victims are the only ones with the power to move on. While harassment maybe one of the most heinous things that can occur on the boards; that particular brand of evil, coming from nameless powerless people on the internet, is small cookies in the big scheme of things. And yes, no user or mod has the kind of power that makes the harassment anything more than a spooky nuissance. The anonymity of this forum makes harassment more pervasive, but it also means harassment is less of a realistic continuuing threat - except where victims can't move on.

I'm not saying I have the answers for how to move on, but I am saying I'm not sure there's much more mods can do for victims of harassment but respond quickly with bans for those who harass.. We aren't healers or miracle workers. At least I'm not. There are some mods who are much cooler than me though... maybe I'm underestimating our power.

 

Yes well, a group of girls raging in their negative emotions are the ones who got this person banned and found out that he's been doing it for several years. If it wasn't for us and our negative emotions, he'd still be here, probably still continuing doing it.

 

Yes, have the negative emotion, get the person banned, and then move on. That's how it should work yes? We are giving jerks, bullies, harassers and meanies much too much power when we let their negativity linger long after the jerk, bully, harasser or meanie has been banned.

 

So baiting harrassment victims is okay in Comms now? Just trying to figure out where the lines are.

 

Should doesn't necessarily mean "does."

Move on eventually, yes. However, when one learns that the dude who a few years back harassed you, which you've moved on from, and learn that he's done it far worse to a ton of your friends as well... Sorry, forgive me if we're entitled to be mad about it for a week or so.

 

And then move on?

It's not that simple at all though. That's like saying to the widows of murder victims "Well, he's gone to jail. You can move on now".

This is not like being flamed or baited. This is a very serious infraction, to the extent that there are laws involving it. You can't go to jail for calling someone a *****, but you can for sexually harrassing someone.

It does the victims a great dis-service to reduce their experiences to "He's banned. Move on"

 

that particular brand of evil, coming from nameless powerless people on the internet, is small cookies in the big scheme of things.

False. It speaks to a much larger problem, which Rachel (sj, that is) alluded to in her largest post. Unnamed_user was anything but powerless here, and had a great deal of influence, authority and respect. People bought into that, and at the least, felt he was someone they could trust.

More than that, though, the same manipulation and power that drove this person to do the things he did is at the root of what causes men throughout the world to harass, abuse and rape women in real life. I hope no one thinks for a moment that the things this person did are somehow any different in their base motivations than someone who chooses to date rape a woman, uses their authority at a job to secure sexual pleasure for themselves at the expense of a female employee, or from the manipulation that men can use on women throughout relationships and marriages.

That's not said very well, but I hope the overall point got across.

 

What's the alternative? Cry more?

lol That actually does sound like baiting, but really, what is the alternative?

 

As others have said, Lemminglord, the perception that victims should be expected to "move on" is categorically wrong. Since you are a key member of the community and not a troll to be ignored, like wannasee, I will address you directly.

The most destructive element of sexual harassment or any sexual violence, (yes, sexual harassment is a form of sexual violence), regardless of the medium of delivery, is the betrayal of trust and feelings of insecurity or even guilt it propagates in the persons affected. These feelings are destructive to the over all community, because if they are not addressed they threaten to make the persons in question withdraw from the community altogether. If these people no longer feel safe in their participation here, (emotionally, mentally, or even physically), how can we expect them to stay? Surely, you, as a moderator and respected member of this community, love this place enough to want it to be a place where all contributing members can feel safe?

No, the individuals harmed should not be encouraged to "dwell", but neither should we as a community expect them to immediately "get over" the traumatic breach of their personal safety and wellbeing that has taken place. Rather, we should be doing everything we can as a community to support them and ensure this doesn't recur.

For the record, this process certainly should include a "name and shame" for the individual who took advantage of near-absolute power within this community to betray a fundamental trust.

That this has not happened thus far is very unfortunate to the point of shameful, though I understand that the moderators of our community did not have the final decision on this matter.

 

The "alternative" is empathy. Something which your posts are severely lacking

 

I simply cannot believe what I'm reading. The derogatory, ignorant, and belligerent nature of your posts is uncalled for.

First off, as a a silent victim of the same harassment, on several occasions, I can say that I don't feel any different when the situation has arisen in real life. I should be able to post online from the comfort of my home without worrying about males making comments that make me feel awkward. Anything done online that bears real-life consequences is real, and just because you have never been placed in a situation like the ones women are complaining of doesn't mean it isn't important.



Secondly, when you use asinine analogies like the one above, you are implying that the woman's actions are asking for harassment. Do you know what the final picture I posted was that resulted in harassment and also in me deciding to stop posting them? Me in a baggy T-shirt smiling while posting in the JC. Is that asking for harassment? NO. No one ever deserves harassment. In my opinion, the issues at hand aren't on the shoulders of the women who have always just had to accept that "this is the way things are". It's on the men who don't have enough self-control or respect for women to keep their crude and less-than-intelligent comments to themselves.

Has anyone ever looked through the Picture thread? A good majority of the posts are by males who post multiple shots of themselves without worry about women harassing them sexually. All us women are asking for is the same leisure.



On a slightly different note, I do want to thank the mods. Since I've discussed the problem with SLG, I talked to a mod who's a friend of mine, who re-assured me that if I ever feel harassed, all I need to do is let them know. They've been so supportive of victims of e-harassment in this case, and have been very pro-active in addressing and proposing a solution to the problem. Thanks, guys.

 

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[quote=AaylaSecurOWNED]So baiting harrassment victims is okay in Comms now? Just trying to figure out where the lines are.[/quote]

 

Yes, yes it does come across as baiting, and quite a lot at that.

 

wannasee, I would strongly suggest you stay away from this thread. You've already had one warning/edit about your conduct and posts, and you've already said your posts come across as baiting, which is how they are being perceived. Consider this a warning.

 

So he finally slipped up or allowed himself to get "overly aggressive", eh?

He "contacted" me once he realized I was female, before he was promoted to Head Admin. He didn't get far enough to "harass" me, but then again, he didn't count on me being friends with someone else he was attempting to "court" (unsuccessfully) at the same time and that we'd compare notes and confront. Again, I don't think he harassed us, but he came off as practiced sleazy...especially considering what his current RL situation was at the time.

If someone came to me wanting to know how to report sexual harassment, I would steer them to another Admin and away from him...for all the good it would do.


I'm sure this must've already come up before, but even back then he would immediately shuffle his target's conversation to off-site email (I'm sure the mods and regulars know why). Just something to consider when deciding how to attempt to prevent others from doing the same thing he did.