Lit Sexualizing in EU–does it fit Star Wars?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Revanfan1, Aug 31, 2013.

  1. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    I think the gore and warfare etc. is much more disturbing than nudity and sexy clothing in Star Wars. It is ok in our society to show kids war, death, killing, torture, gore to a kidfriendly degree in kidsshows, games, etc. ... but bare skin is a taboo?

    I do not want to offend any Americans here, but for me as European/German, I see too many puritan doublestandards in the US society. I don't want to rant about that here now, but as said above, nudity is natural. Only by being ashamed of it which is unnatural, we create a taboo and an interest in the "forbidden". So to speak society creates its own naughty minds because of its taboos, of which some are not needed. But that is cultural precedence and baggage of the last centuries of eduction of generation after generation that has yet to find back to their natural order of life, free of not religious moral but religious dogma and wrong religious inspired lore. Separating that from the truth religions bring is hard these days sadly for many.

    I mean, what does more damage? War or Love? Be it the love for beauty, the love for a character or person, a ship... Not everyone is a naughty fanboy/author just because one likes sexy...

    Of course everybody gets naughty at times, is horny or whatever. No denying that. And of course authors and fans alike should be careful and mind where/how to live out their fantasy world. But the outrage about bare skin is more telling about those who rage than the thing they rage about.

    Against the believes of some, even old ages does not lead all people to abandon sex, love and nudity. Some live it freely still. Let them if they want to. The GFFA, as a mirror of our own world may have all that too, and even stuff that is weird to us or against some nations cultural norm. Not neccessarily does that need to be shown in the sourcematerial, but it should not offend anyone. Depending on how you view it, how tolerant you are, you have less problems with that. Be like "Ok, maybe that is Han and Leias thing... not mine but let them have their fun. I would have written them different." But to condemn it is wrong I think. Every part of society condemns something.. not all the same. you can't make it right for everyone and even if some parts of SW are sexualised, so be it. So long it is ok in a way and targeting the right age group we are fine. And so far it did that.

    I could quote way more sources with worse examples than this topic already had mentioned. And in real life I know way worse cases than what SW does... have you seen what kids wear these days? I rather worry about these 12 year old kids with makeup, tatoos and learning to shoot guns in the US already at young age (not all, but too many do). Or ridicolous doll-esque beauty contests with kids younger than 10 even... some documentaries on tv about US way of life are really shocking.

    Even Europe got its way too many flaws. Not denying that. Heck even I got mine. And it is no secret that sex sells and product is styled to sell more than for message or else. Also, when you are horny you view everything sexualised... even a rock, trust me I know! Look at the same thing when back to normal and you just see as someone else posted above a different scene, two lovers kissing instead of Jaina in a hot dress. Psychology is here at play too.

    Not everyone is a nudist, but nudists do have a point that nude is natural. Not everyone needs to live like that obviously, but I always cringe when I see people act as if some bare skin is something special. I worry more what the person has to hide than what it does show. Clothes are more sexy than full nudity in my opinion since they have the ability to direct attention to specific parts of the body, to hide what may look less yummy and to expose only the pro and not the contra. Guess why many women use that to fool us men. But enough with the sociology lesson now.

    In Star Wars, we need not fear or condemn sexualisation and bare skin if natural-minded education and tolerance is there. If one though can't do that, we need to be mindful of those people and not overload SW with sexualisation (like comics love indeed) but keep it at a healthy level so to speak. That level may differ for everyone's own opinion, but so far the worst I saw is the mention of "huttese pornography" in planet of twilight due to kids wondering and googling that world maybe if they do not know it already. Most other stuff is "fade to black", implied or in other ways acceptable even if sometimes outside cultural norm like interspecies couples (with some species inspired by earth animals, yikes... Corran!). Aside Planet of Twilight, Leonia Tavira was another questionable creation, given her background with her deceased "husband" as well as her telling way she has with her crew. But these, while not explicit, are way more disturbing cases in my opinion than Tahiri and Ben where nothing really happened (except fanboys minds that may continue the train of thought beyond what was in canon!).

    rant over...

    PS: Sexualisation and what is natural/realistic was in the movies, so the same level is ok for the EU. Books like Deathtroopers are experiments and for adults and can go beyond movie level thus. NJO too is for adults. Others are more all age and thus limited, Denning boarders the accepted edge of ok but so far is more making use of it for fun rather than offense, and he is not alone there, given Allston's own fun and other authors doing the same. Comics should give us more diversity in body tapes and breastsizes... Dark Times was good there until an artist change lead to a sizechange.. in the end though it is nothing special. It all depends on how you view it and what you tell the kid this means. Talk to your kids if they love star wars, don't make them fear or sexualise stuff that is not really more sexual than what one can see every day outside on the streets!
  2. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    @CeiranHarmony, that was a very well though-out post, and it is interesting to see a European's view. Me personally, I was raised in a conservative home where nudity has never been seen on a television program or movie, but on the other hand we do accept shows with violence. It does go with how you're raised. Me, I see no problem with the violence. Why? Because it's the heroes stopping the bad guys, the people who are otherwise going to go out and hurt someone innocent. Someone has to do it and that's what Star Wars is about. To paraphrase a poster above, this is Star Wars, not Sex in the Center of the Galaxy. The content goes with the theme, and the theme of Star Wars is good vs. evil, not a man and a scantily-clad woman gettin' it on. That's just my opinion on it, though. Obviously scant clothing is common in Star Wars because of ROTJ, but you have to take it in moderation. When every female character is clad like a call girl, then you've got a problem (Denning). And Corran's "stirring in the loins" line is an example of why–because then the dialogue gets facepalm-worthy.
  3. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    star 6
    This thread is like fans of a franchise full of people getting burned alive, dismembered, and decapitated getting together to think critically about how much shoulder the womenfolk are showing.

    Wait, that's not a metaphor; that's what this thread literally is.
  4. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I'm comfortable with beauty in the EU, though. I don't really want the EU to become like comic books where every page is sexualized (and frankly, sleazy at times) but beautiful characters and art of them is something I'd be happy with.

    Of course, that's hard with literature.
    CeiranHarmony likes this.
  5. krtmd Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 4
    It is somewhat uniquely American that we get so bent out of shape about sex, but violence is A-OK (obviously, this is a generalization, but certainly reflective of our media, IMO). Just as a thought - why is it not ok for Anakin and Padme to do more than kiss or embrace onscreen in a PG-13 movie billed as family entertainment, but it's definitely ok for Anakin to slaughter children (not onscreen, but certainly more implied than the sex Padme and Anakin obviously had that led to Luke and Leia) or the incredibly brutal lightsaber battle where Obi Wan dismembers Anakin on Mustafar and leaves him to burn?

    eta. oops, perhaps I should have hit refresh sooner. What Coop said.
    Last edited by krtmd, Aug 31, 2013
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  6. Bib Fartuna Jedi Grand Master

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    [IMG]
  7. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    yubyub, I like your point of taking it in moderation. Sex may sell, but too much makes it cheap. Using bare skin, sexy, even fully clothed erotic (which can be a pose, a look, beautiful eyes, small details only, etc.) in moderation is what makes it rare, and rare means special. It is something to wait for, to drool over when it is special. If it is like a tv guide with lots of celebrities on every page or like other "sexy" mags I despise by the way, then it is too much and nothing special. A part of the erotic and thrill in "sexy" things is the knowing when to use it and when not to. That is one of the reason I like the Union Comic which uses it natural for most cases. You need not show Leia as a Twilek cosplayer pinup but have her to go the spa and have fun in a natural scene that is ok. Likewise, I would say Union is sexualised on purpose but more for fun again than for anything else. That is why I make a big difference between things other people often throw together. Erotic is not Porn at all. Porn is sexualising exploitation directed towards certain needs and customers. Erotic on the other hand, which SW may use in moderation, does not equal nudity but rather temptation, which can happen fully clothed (not bodytight!) depending on how it is used. Erotic is a form of art.

    As for your comment on good vs evil,... without derailing the topic: I tend to more see it like there is no good or evil but rather everyone of us has good and evil qualities. It is not as clearcut as in fiction and even SW is not. Even the movies are not despite giving that impression at times to less philosophic viewers maybe. At first sight it is dualistic, at second it is more complicated. Vader is not just evil is one of the central themes. Good uses evil to fight... by killing to protect the innocent. Evil has good in its heart. Lke taoism kinda. Mortis symbolism reinforced that impression as well as elaborated again what the movies did not convey to all viewers: good and bad does not exist. Creation and destruction does, in balance, both extremes are bad cause one cannot be without the other. There is no simple exterminaaaate (Dalek pun intended) the badguys and be happy. Mainmessage of ROTJ: "I will not fight you!" or else he'd become like his father. Evil destroys itself, Good prevails by staying good.. not by slaying evil. Sadly not all authors get that. And I can't blame them or fans who see it different.

    thus, I can understand and also enjoy the good vs evil tv shows and movies, we have them here too of course. But, and that is where it gets dangerous: Too often american movies portray f.e. Islam, middle east, asia, their historic foes as evil in a cliché type of movie that leads to many people generalizing these people and regions with their extremist stereotype that does not fit to all people their and not even to an entire religion. I have nothing against american views on that, I too condemn terrorism and such. But so long tolerance is practiced and one does not generalize actions of some to be those of all, one needs to be careful what image of the distant world one projects through media and fiction for it may stick with many minds. Many think it is cool to go to the military and gun down bad people. Are proud even. Defending home and family is good, but one often looses focus on who one is fighting, what for and especially the soldiers in the field have no idea about the bigger picture and how often politics play them for a fool.Knowing friends who are with the military and came back from their foreign country missions very changed and shocked, I have seen too many "heroes" fighting the "bad guys" regret it in the end. Maybe my own cultural background there is speaking too, I never was with the military, but Germany got a past you all know. So we doublecheck these days before we deem someone evil and pull the trigger... or so I hope with out idiotic government.

    Last but not least: I too enjoy expendables or such actionflicks. No denying there. Chuck Norris, Jackie Chan... awesome. But there is a difference between a fun movie that may use clichés and over the top stereotypes, and a movie that is said to be realistic and using the same. Even that may be ok, so long people tend to view it correct and be aware that it is just a movie and not a way to learn about the real world. for that, my bookseller heart still has books... or if you are not the reading type: national geographic documentaries!
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  8. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I love sex, sex is awesome, and so is sexuality. However, it's also too often used cheaply and tends to be lopsided slanted towards one sex's benefit.
  9. Alixen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2003
    star 4
    Haha @CooperTFN, I completely agree.

    Also, Star Wars (at least since RotJ) has always skirted around at at times bulldozed right through such issues, while seeming to avoid flak for them. In RotJ we have concubines/slaves who dance in skimpy outfits for the court of scums pleasure, with Oola even popping out of her outfit at one point. Then in TPM we have slavery as a major theme again, and Sebulba's slave-twins with visible breasts through their yellow-net tops. AOTC and ROTS i've not seen as much as the OT, so i'm a little more fuzzy on, but a few seedy places are in the former, and Padme's outfit. You know the one. Even the Clone Wars gets in on the act with Ahsoka's general outfit and acrobatics, especially odd considering the characters age, and the (albiet in body suits) 'dancers' in various cantina's through the seasons.

    I personally don't have an issue with it. If decapitation/dismemberment, war and death, and such are major themes, it seems hypocritical to be bothered about something like this - especially when I enjoy such things as a man, anyway.

    Edit: Oh, and Leia's outfit in ANH is vaguely see through, under certain light. Especially obvious when she first talks to Darth, and he calls her a traitor.
    Last edited by Alixen, Aug 31, 2013
  10. Reveen Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2012
    star 3
    Y'know, I get the feeling that people think Star Wars is fundamentally puritan about this stuff, which is... weird. Even leaving aside the half-naked dancing girls, clubbers wearing chainmail tops and body paint, sexual slavery, and half of Padme's wardrobe, we get people clearly having sex drives, and saying lines like this.

    I mean, when Lucas said that a kiss is the Star Wars version of a sex scene, I don't think he meant that characters in Star Wars aren't having sex, I think he meant that if you see characters kissing, they're probably going to end up ****ing, except offscreen.

    You forgot the stranglings. Spousal abuse stranglings even!
    Last edited by Reveen, Aug 31, 2013
  11. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    star 6
    And not for nothing, but this thread is also, by and large, a bunch of men talking about what another bunch of men should and shouldn't do with the female characters they have total control over. What's more respectful to women, stopping young readers from seeing something like this:

    [IMG]

    ...or allowing Jan Duursema to design whatever outfits she damn well pleases?
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  12. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    IT does NOT fit in Star wars which was always based as a family safe environment in most of it's media enterprises.
  13. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    I understand your point. And I don't thin SW is fundamentally puritan, but I do have to say that the movies at least were always intended for kids to be able to watch them too. Would you let a kid read the torture scene in Invincible? That's all I'm saying: are certain authors taking it too far? I'm not saying there should be no beauty, no males being attracted to females because they're physically attractive, in Star Wars.

    What I'm saying is, we could use a bit more Anakin and Tahiri and a bit less Quinlan and Khaleen. Not that Quin and Khaleen don't have their place, but you have to take everything in moderation. Even Ben and Vestara's "relationship" seemed too adult compared to Anakin and Tahiri. (Not that I'm saying it was adult themed at all; it wasn't, just that Ben liked Vestara because she was beautiful and vice versa instead of loving her...well, I don't even know how to describe Anakin and Tahiri's relationship; it's just so unique.) And that may just be because I never–ever–liked Vestara much, let alone with Ben.
  14. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 5
    Can we please just have the old Sex thread reopened so we can keep these various topics in place? Fleet Junkies have a flagship, and there is the Cartography thread, so why not Flirt Junkies?
    kataja likes this.
  15. Trip Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    I find it disturbing that she is making out with a fetus.

    you mean both amazing and hilarious
    yeah no he is pretty fug tbh
    Last edited by Trip, Aug 31, 2013
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  16. EECHUUTA Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2007
    star 4
    Actually, it's not the idea of nudity that might bother people, as a bunch of plainly naked people would be interesting for a while to gawk at and then eventually grow boring. It's when the clothes are used to emphasize the person as a sex object without them even needing to do anything. No erotica, no innuendo, just baring as much as possible thin strips of material, but yet enough so the boobies don't flop out and say 'Hi.' Or the fully clothed alternate, having such a person in skintight outfits, where you can see everything in a barely disguised outline, even though she should be sporting a cameltoe and pushed out outlines of nipples.

    And you know how you can tell they are a sex object over Americans being mere prudes?
    When you don't really see any men dressed in the same revealing outfit. Why don't we see Twi'Lek Sith men in black little leather speedos? Where will we see a man 'suggestively' ripped clothing over parts of his body? Can we see a man in a tight black catsuit, showcasing everything as hardcore as the catsuit clad women?

    It's because most men don't want to see or think about another man's faintly outlined junk, even as women get to see another woman's junk in nearly every form with the stripper or dominatrix-like outfit. So if you want to erase double-standards, have the men in equally ridiculous outfits, and not just subject the female characters to them.
  17. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 5
    Also known as/ related to the Theiss Titillation Theory, thanks to a certain cosumer on the original Star Trek.
  18. Bib Fartuna Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 4
    Okay...

    Someone has to bring this up...

    What about the touchy subject of inter-species erotica?

    Wedge Antilles / Qwi-Xux anyone???

    Bestiality is a complete no-no in my opinion ;)
  19. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

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    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Was Qwi ever sexualized, though? I thought Wedge loved her for her innocence.
  20. Bib Fartuna Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 4
    I thought he loved her for her sweet, sweet fur!
  21. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 5
    Does it actually count as bestiality if as both participants are sentient beings?
  22. AnakinColodin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2009
    star 2
    She is at least considered near human.

    Corran horn had aone night stand with a Selonian(think a large Otter like alien), it ended up that he was allegric to her fur and got hives and she did not react well to human sweat so it was like being burned, and Gavin Darklighter was going to marry a Bothan before she faked her death in order to get away from the pressure of Senator Feyla oppositing the marriage.
  23. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    What is the DEAL with Corran horn. Isn't he a married man? Is this otter adultery? (If so he deserves his allergies)
    Bib Fartuna likes this.
  24. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 5
    Created a central thread for these sorts of discussions, since they seem to be popping up more frequently.
  25. Bib Fartuna Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 4, 2012
    star 4