Full Series Shadow Guards

Would you guys like to see some facing off against the Rebels?

 

Oh yeah.

And Dark Troopers too. The phase 3 Dark Troopers were pretty much a SW version of Space Marines, which was beyond cool.

 

The imperial guards in Black armor from Force Unleashed? If so, Not yet, We already have 2 new force using Inquisitors, that takes us to 4 force using bad guys in rebels so far if you include Vader, anymore and it becomes overload. One thing I liked about the clone Wars series is that they fought alot of Enemies like Cad Bane, Hondo and his pirate gang, the Commando droids etc. We only had the Maul Brothers, Grevious, Ventress, Dooku, and I guess Pre Visla use sabers in TCW(Palpatine only fought the Maul Brothers). Two of those were non force users. Maybe in a future season though.

 

Only problem I have with the Shadow Guard is that why would Palpatine use standard Guardsmen armed with Force Pikes, instead of actual Force powered and trained & lightsaber/saberstaff wielding Shadow Guards in ROTJ or apparently anywhere else?! Only way for it and lack of Inquisitors in the movies, appears to if they're all dead somehow which is still a rather awkward reasoning - and comes off as a convenient extinction excuse.

You'd need someone of the caliber of Starkiller to really explain why the Empire lost all or basically nearly all its Force sensitive soldiers right before ANH and whatever program they had for cadet younglings would have to be destroyed or liberated which would actually create a lot of possible future jedi knight or just dead ends that never amounted to anything whether by choice or not.

 

we are going to have to wait and see in september when the tie ins to the new movie start coming out to see what happens to the non inquitorius force users of the empire Such as the emperors hands and the prophets of the darkside. It will be interesting as other darkside groups that are not with are still canon thanks to the nightsisters being used in the clone wars cartoon.

 

I would interpret the Red Guard a little different: they are a representative unit first and foremost, not special forces. Sure, they are capable, but not the Emperor's super soldiers. So while the Red Guards stand beside the Emperor for everyone to see, the Shadow Guards roam the Galaxy in secret, performing commando duties.

I am not a big fan of the Shadow Guard - yet another force user group? How many does the Empire need? They have the Inquisitors already...And if the rumours are true, and SMG voices Mara Jade, we will get the Hand in canon, too.
Let's face it: the Shadow Guard was only needed for games to provide a mid-level enemy. Had TFU been released after Rebels, they'd have used Inquisitors for that.

Don't get me wrong: I want to see a better class of soldiers than the stormtroopers.
But I want them to be regular guys without the force; elite soldiers who use superior training and equipment to get the job done. Pre Viszla and Cad Bane have been a threat to Jedi even without force powers. And I can imagine that a group of Imperial elite soldiers can cause quite some trouble for the Rebels. It seems the Purge Troopers are going to be canon again, so why not use them?
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Purge_Trooper

Short: yes, please, some better Imperials. But please not force users again!

 

The whole point of the Red Guards is that they're the elite of the elite personal guardsmen and supposed abled enough to to pose a thread to Vader, despite apparent lack of Force sensitive and melee weapons.




Presumably they're basically human magnaguards, but Yoda went through Sidious's royal guards too easily in ROTS.

The Shadow Guards and Imperial Senate Guards in the game acted as pretty much the same thing, they're deployment was basically to give a Dark Jedi presence to the Imperial bases and hot targets and eliminate suspected Jedi and other Force users. cause Vader could not be everywhere . Which is basically the function of the Inquisitors. Perhaps one can interpret these warriors as Inquisitors or the Inquisitors are a sub-group of the Shadow Guard. By TFI II game they were replaced by the Saber Guard and Acolytes and not quite sure whether they were enhanced super humans created on Kamino or force sensitive humans or both.

 

Maybe the new canon could combine the Shadow Guards with the Emperor's Hands? Both seem to be secret assasins, so why not keep the best of both worlds?

 

Following the end of that video we didn't hear Vader advising the red robed guards to go and change their now reddish brown trousers...

I know you think they should be able to defend themselves against Vader, but please remember there's defend against Vader and going splat... now I don't know about you but if Vader is enraged enough I know which of those two is going to happen...

 

Guards are guards for a reason, its not like they're there just to be part of the furniture although they came off as such in the movies which is a low mark. They're supposed to be trained extremely well to protect the Emperor. If this character was so powerful, then he wouldnt need guardsmen but he was given them, and surrounds himself with them. They have to be prepared and trained to fight off any threat, foreign or domestic. Obviously back in ROTJ, the guard looked ready to give Vader a good fight. Its not a question as to whether Vader can or can't go through them, or should or shouldn't, its the ease of how he could go through them, and not just him but other warriors. I never liked that scene in ROTS when Yoda just walks in there, and tosses two guards who were useless facing the wall, they should've been on the opposite end, guarding the door from entry(and you can have two inside) its also like Sidious had no security in the building. Pure lazy directing and writing by Lucas there. There should've been some scenes showing how Yoda got inside undetected(maybe he used the ventilation shafts) and there needed to be a scene of the Royal Guards in action against a Jedi.

Back in the EU(which was canon on some level), there was always some rumors and examples that some of the Royal Guards were Force sensitives atleast and that was confirmed with the use of the Guards in TFU..

 

It is entirely realistic to have a unit in ceremonial outfit for representative duties separate from the elite forces of the military and the bodyguards of the head of state. The British Queen's Guard e.g. is composed of capable military units like the Coldstream Guards, but neither are they special forces like SAS or SBS nor are they are primarily responsible for the Queen's personal security. Other examples of similar practices can be easily found, like the French Garde Républicaine or the German Wachbataillon or the plethora of Italian Guard units (really, visit Rome, you see fancy uniformed guards in front of government buildings all the time). That applies to countries without monarchical traditions, too. Those spiffy Marines standing beside Obama are not his bodyguards, nor are they part of MARSOC.

There are good reasons why these roles are separated in the real world. The best bodyguard is not the one standing stoically beside the head of state, watching straight ahead and sporting ceremonial outfit. Special Forces usually simply have no time to detach their men for representative duties; even the more numerous regular units of the Queen’s Guard have to rotate in their duties. It is one of the many EU stupidities to lump these rather different roles together so that the Red Guard is a super-special-force-as-well-as-bodyguard-as-well-as-representation-unit.

The Red Guards we see on-screen are clearly on protocol duty, their ceremonial outfit gives that away. They cannot even turn their head in their armour and it is not like their robes are any help... And, as noted, they are not optimally posted to actually act against a sudden attack. They never are: be the opera house scene, Palpatine's office or the Senate, they always stand next to the door facing the room, thus not seeing who enters. In fact, since they cannot turn their heads, they would notice an intruder in Palpatine’s office only when the intruder is at the big window... The idea that they could fight with this armour, in these robes is quite entertaining actually. Just bringing the pikes in combat position looks so silly that I understand why they deleted that scene from RotJ.

 

Royals Guards were not stated to be ceremonial toy soldiers, there is a difference in what you're speculating about and what the Royal Guards are actually supposed to be. They're shown to be quite able and flexible in their uniforms or they can switch to Stormtrooper like gear, which according to Luke in a manner that seems to breaking the wall for comedy he could not see a thing out've so arguing about the outfits seems a bit out there as they're supposed to work in-universe and be practical. Plus the guy in Vader's outfit had difficulty seeing, they needed transparent cheek bone stunt helmets, and part of the head gear was a neck brace so his head movements were also restricted.

Special Forces are something else, and they work better on small scale specialized operations not as a substitute for the regular army. A better comparison would be Roman Praetorian Guard , the Persian Immortals or really any historical Imperial Guard elite fighting formations that also form a detachment of the Emperor's personal guard.

 

Just an observation, but:

"Sort-of-Canon" + "Rumors" + Non-Canon Video Game = Not a whole lot.

Though this is Star Wars, and realism isn't applicable for the most part, Kassius Konstantine has pretty much nailed the reality of it. I'd just like to add that not only can they not turn their heads in those ridiculous brain buckets, but their visibility is severely restricted as well.

Also, you don't maintain your elite status by standing around in formations all day, and there's no evidence that they were rotated back into combat units once they'd served as royal guards. For all we know, these guys may have been chosen based on psychological tests and a complete, mindless devotion to the Emperor above that of your average stormie. It wouldn't be the first time that a personal bodyguard unit was created based not on combat ability, but on sheer loyalty.

 

Government bodyguards are body guards for a reason, Palpatine is like the President, but Emperor of the universe(closest parallel irl would be a Roman Emperor or even Hitler and his elite SS), you're basically trying to say that the President of the USA is guarded by a bunch've Walt Disney World cosplay fans that guard the hot dog stands during a convention. SW are movies, of course its not real, you have a bad habit of picking when realism is a factor and when it is not then. You're supposed to be pretending this fictional universe could exist and be real. Many of the things in SW are based on reality or concepts that could be one day reality, they use a lot of real world military, political and religious otherworldly and heavily factors found in religious texts or ancient mythology. The production tries to make everything be made to where it could work and serve a practicality. We know SW its fake, and could pick apart such and such all day, not the point is it?!

They're better examples of Imperial Guards a few of which I already stated and they more align with what has been shown in Star Wars EU and Star Wars Canon(Star Wars: Lords of the Sith and Commander). Force Pikes are used to also combat Jedi threats(gee they wouldnt useless if pointed at Vader or Yoda now would they), so it stands to reason these arent generic mooks are picked up for their height and weight and thrown in a costume to go stand over there, like it would be real life for the movie correct?! TFU was at the time an official sequel to ROTS, so no it was not just a game. The whole EU already delved into the Royal Guards, and guess what, even in current canon they're elite soldiers culled from the Imperial military. And they replaced the Senate Guards(includes Commandos) who where themselves elite soldiers and specially trained assassins. And no elite is not just a word.


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Emperor's_Royal_Guard/Canon#cite_note-Commander-6

 

I have not seen that in any TV or Movie Star Wars... Anyway, I am not saying they are purely ceremonial, I said their prime job seems to be protocol duty - which means they are not the hyper elite due to the necessities I outlined above. Good soldiers, perhaps, but not elite like the high-level bodyguards or special forces.

The Roman Emperors of the Principate era were usually protected by the corporis custodes (which literally translates to bodyguards), and the equites singulares Augusti, not the praetorians. The difference can be nicely seen on the Trajan's Column; Trajan elevated and standing up high addresses his praetorians who are identified by their lion skin-clad signifer, otherwise hard to distinguish from the legions. The equites singulares however stand beside the Emperor. The praetorians are actually guards in the sense that they were up to legionary standard, had their barracks in the capital, and were better paid than the usual legionaries - like modern day guards (e.g. the Wachregiment, "Guards Regiment").
The closest Star Wars equivalent is the Coruscant Guard.

The so-called "Immortals" (Herodotus fell victim to a translation mistake; the actual Persian name translates to 'companions') were the standing army of the Great Kings, as opposed to the levied and local troops. In battle, the Great King was usually protected by his kin and closest friends. There was a formation called doryphoroi by the Greeks, the arshtibara in Persian, serving as 1.000 men strong elite, but the relation to the anusiya (the "immortals") is unknown.(iirc; it has been six years since I gave a lecture on the Persian Wars, and even back then it was a side interest of mine...).



I am totally aware that realism takes a backseat in Star Wars. I am just afraid the perception of the Red Guard being elite stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of what Guards are, especially those with protocoll duties. Part of the problem is that the English language is horribly imprecise in distinguishing the wide variety of units, formations, and concepts that the term "guard(s)" encompasses. The fact that the EU writers - most of them without any background in history or military studies - are clueless in that makes it even worse.
In-universe, it would make a hell of a lot sense to have the Red Guard as a capable but primarily ceremonial unit, while the actual bodyguards and elite troops serve in other formations.

 

Stop being dense, they are "hyper-elite". Just cause you think they wear funny uniforms and are on guard duty for tourist attractions and thats about the extent of their merit, does not make it so am afraid. They're elite even in canon as has been said, stop making me repeat myself. Nobody said they were Jedi arts trained(although the Shadow Guards were), but they're trained well enough where they could deal with a Jedi threats(Vader and Yoda) they just lack the Force. We already saw Vizla and Bane and even some of the other Bounty Hunters like Embo and Sugi go toe to toe with Jedi like Kenobi, Vos, Maul, Savage and Maul so for you to keep going on like you are by making the idea seem implausible for non-Force sensitive combatants, is shall I say, foolish.

 

Oh yeah, they really showed Yoda who's boss.

 

I already said before they were the human equivalent of Magnaguards, its basically their training, weapons, and numbers rather than Force ability or lightsabers that more make up a Jedi or Sith. As for the Red Royal Guard, they also take the place of the Senate Guard(including commandos) and also guard specific Imperial strongholds and Imperial dignitaries and the Imperial senate . If you guys want to delve off into a dreamland where these military soldiers are glorified statues with a sole job requirement of just standing still for tourists and pomp and circumstance, enjoy.

As for the Shadow Guard(on topic) they are more specially trained to deal with Jedi as they have the training, powers and weapons up to the task as Jedi Hunters.

If you think its just a game, then exit the thread.

 

Vorax

I must have expressed myself badly for I never wanted to say they were a "tourist attraction" only. Actually by comparing them to revered Queen’s Guards units like the Coldstream Guards, who kicked Taliban’s butts more than once for good, I meant to acknowledge that ceremonial duties do not automatically preclude combat prowess. I just said those duties make it very insensible if they were the very elite of the armed forces; you have to take basic organizational necessities into account which can be deduced from real life ceremonial units. And ceremonial duties, no matter what outfit, definitely get in the way of good body-guarding. I hope you understand this problem.

I know you like the EU and written sources a lot, and I can respect that. But when it comes to the point that you have to rely on them primarily, and your only on-screen back-up is something the filmmakers deleted, and when you accuse Lucas of lazy writing because the actual film scenes do not fit your idea... maybe you could re-read and re-consider my arguments to see if they harmonize better with the on-screen evidence. Because that is where I am coming from.

Furthermore I would like to stress that I, even in this thread, emphasized that non-force users can be a credible threat to Jedi. I think it would be even better from the dramaturgical point of view. So I don't really feel your comment about non-force sensible combattants is best adressed at me.


Octavian Dibar

Well, yeah, Yoda is about the most powerful being there is... I think it is more telling that the immediate assistence Sidious gets is the Coruscant Guard, clones.
In any case I do not think they stand any chance against Vader. But Vader is also very powerful.

 

Yoda came up behind them and Force pushed them into a wall with enough force to have knocked them unconscious, give them concussions or even killed them,who knows or cares. That is just two guards in a particular context. The Clones when up against Yoda and Kenobi were just as ineffective and they were were actually fighting. Infact going by Rebels all the Imperials are when against Jedi or non-Jedi star heroes alike. Soldiers are normally fodder for the heroes or villains in this sorta fiction, thats how it is.

This is a EU/Legends thread, information from it and canon can be used. Disregarding canon and legends and going on and on with personal viewpoints on whom these soldiers are like in your opinionated commentary is just derailing the thread.

They're fully armored when need be.






Royal Guards, who even in canon are an elite highly trained soldier class and well trained to deal with regular and irregular threats to the Empire and Emperor . Shadow Guards are more an equivalent to Sith Warriors of Old Republic and pretty much not much different from canon's Inquisitors - they're all fodder enemy soldiers anyway.

 

Hey, I was just going by what you said.

The one time they actually had a chance to prove you correct and "deal with" Yoda, and they let you down.

You had one job, Imperial Guards! One job!

I mean, it's not like Yoda snuck his way into the room, evading the guards. He shuffled his way in on his walking stick, and waited until the guards drew their weapons before laying the smack down on their sorry red behinds. As the ever-correct Mr. Konstantine noted earlier, the guards weren't even facing the proper direction to protect their charge. You would think they they would have at least heard Stumbles McYoda and his stick moving down the hall. Hmmm, some bodyguards they turned out to be.

Maybe they're not at elite as you think they are? Sorry, man. I know you like them a lot, but I'm just going by the evidence on the screen. I mean, I guess the FNGs could have been on-duty at the time Yoda showed up.

Moving on, I can't say I'm all too keen on seeing the Shadow Guard, or Dark Troopers, for that matter. I always thought they were a bit hokey, and really only created so that there would be a credible threat later on in the respective video games in which they appeared. I'd much rather see something more "conventional" like Spacetroopers. It's far more logical that we'd see them, or even Radtroopers, before we'd see yet another force-attuned branch of the Empire's forces.

 

Yeah, they're trained to fight in combat, not against the Force which they lack and the Jedi rely upon in god-like fashion. Your childish and pointless commentary is typical of trolls and typical of thread derailment. That context was always self explanatory and spelled out for you, yet you're a waste of time here.


While generic Royal Guards are not Force sensitive and Jedi arts trained, they apply their top physical and advanced close-combat training and weaponry & would operate in numbers. They have a wide range of weaponry such as electro staffs, Force Pikes, ect and can call in added Stormtrooper support. They're human elite guards doing their job to the best of their ability(they're not demi-gods like Jedi or Sith), much like Magnaguards, and not much different from the Clone Assassins or Riot Troopers(who were added into canon recently along with their electro staffs) who are also tasked with eliminating highly skilled threats, including Jedi threats.

 

Vorax
I'm having a bit fun while pointing out the flaws in your arguments, so that makes me a troll? Eh, I've been accused of being much worse.

I'll be completely serious from now on. Honest. This is serious business, arguing on the internet and all.

Look, you tell us that they're not trained to fight against the force, yet you then tell us that they're tasked with eliminating Jedi. Logically, that makes zero sense. They're portrayed as competent soldiers in the Lords of the Sith novel, but that's really it. Nothing that screams "elite" in my book.

It's fine and good that we're told they're "elite" troops in the EU, but we've been told a lot of things in the EU, not all of which is accurate. When it comes time to actually show us Imperial Guard in action, on screen, they get shoved into a wall by a geriatric Jedi. You'll have to forgive me for not being terribly impressed by the guardsmen's prowess. Yes, I get that it was Yoda. I get it. But seriously, man...they let him just walk right into the room before challenging him. They don't display any skills or knowledge I'd associate with a bodyguard.

And for the record, mangaguards actually put up a much better fight in ROTS and TCW against Anakin and Obi-Wan.

 

One Royal Guard might be stronger than another. For example, maybe the ones in ROTS were just promoted Senate Guards but others are Inquisitors, clones, etc.

 

No Dibar, you have not pointed out any flaws. You're ignoring explanations, canon and EU and rethreading arguments that were dealt with already by me, just cause you don't like it. You're just trying too hard at being annoying which you just admitted, which is yeah, trolling. They wont wear armor that is not fully functional and practical in combat, thats preposterous, also to note these warriors are more for close quarters and melee and hand to hand combat orientated primarily. Sun Guards, Mandalorian Crusaders and some others wore similar helmets and no problems in combat.

The Royals Guards are based on the Sun Guards and Imperial Guards(Sith Empire KOR), and like them, these non-Force sensitive warriors are trained to use a wide variety of weapons and combat styles, making them more than a match for a single Jedi or Sith. Whether or not they're successful in bringing down certain targets is another matter, but its their job they have the ability to deal with those sorta threats and again they have numbers and would act as one in ideal situations and conditions . But they belong to a group of notable and deadly non-Force sensitive warriors that can deal with Jedi or Sith. Higher sub-groups of the Royal Guard were the Imperial Sovereigns and Shadow Guards, they were also Force trained and made use of the Jedi arts and more equal to Jedi in being Force empowered. A Sith Lord having these warriors at his side, would not speak of them being useless against a Dark Jedi, rogue Sith or Jedi attacker. Plagueis used the Sun Guard in a manner similar to how Sidious makes use of the Royal Guards, its possible the Royal Guard were transformed from Sun Guards once Sidious took over, but thats neither here not there.