Shhhhh! Don't tell anyone!

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Go-Mer-Tonic, Jan 26, 2000.

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  1. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Hello folks. I think Lucas is going to save the revelations of the classic trilogy for the classic trilogy.

    There are certain secrets that stand to lose their punch when the films are eventually seen in chronological order.

    The reasons I think Lucas will keep the secrets in tact have to do with the following indicators.

    1) Lucas is putting the episodes in order 1-6. If he meant for future SW fans to veiw the films for the first time in the order they were made, I would think he would separate the trilogies. There would have been the Prequels 1-3 and the classic trilogy 1-3.

    2) The way he is pacing himself. If he thought of the prequels as something to see after the calssic trilogy, then he would not worry about keeping the tone low in Ep 1.

    3) So far, he is painting Anakin as the nicest boy in the galaxy. To me this would indicate that he will take a similar hero's journey like Luke did, but turn at the very end, where Luke prevailed.

    Anyway there are three secrets that stand to be spoiled, 1 of which is inevitable allready.

    1) Anakin is Darth Vader.

    2) Luke and Leia are Twins.

    3) The goofy guy on dagobah is really Yoda.

    The third one is already a lost cause, but I think the least impacting of the three secrets.

    The rest of this is a repost from the Amidala will not die in Ep3 thread.

    I have theorized a way they could keep the two bigger secrets in tact. I am not sure what Lucas has planned, but just going on the way the first film is going, they are already making Anakin out to be the hero.
    I am sure he will follow a similar hero's journey through the next two films, with his turning at the very end.

    If Lucas plays his cards right, he can show the birth of Darth Vader, without letting on that it is really Anakin.

    I picture a final fight with a sith lord, Anakin, and Obi-Wan. They are all fighting over a molten pit, and the batte is not going so well for the latest sith lord.

    Anakin is about to do away with him, when Sidious/Palpatine, or the sith lord himself brings up a point about the Jedi Council and Obi-Wan. Something about what Obi-Wan did or did not do, that directly caused the deaths of his mother, Amidala or both.

    Anakin, filled with rage lets out a trademark "Noooooooo!" Then looks to Obi-Wan who can only look to the floor.

    Anakin will use his rage to finish off the sith lord sending him into the molten pit. Then he turns his incoherrant rage and focuses it on Obi-Wan.

    Obi-Wan will refuse to fight back at first, trying to explain why he had no choice, and how his actions (or lack there of) was for the greater good of the entire galaxy.

    Anakin, growing weary of Obi-Wan's conveinient points of veiw, lunges towards him in a blind rage.

    Obi-Wan sidesteps him like a Matador, and sends him over the edge of the molten pit.

    At the last second, Obi-Wan grabs him by the wrist, and tries to save him from his firey demise.

    He pleads with Anakin to just listen, but Obi-Wan's words just don't seem to get through. He looks deep into Anakin's eyes, and realized that he is left with no choice, and with great pain, drops him into the pit.

    As he is running away, he can see Palpatine/Sidious force levitating the charred remains of his fallen sith lord (so we would be led to think) and then the camera closes in on Obi-Wan's face. His look of utter horror will make us think he is wincing at the horrid sight of a charred body, but later on we will understand what that look was truly for in Empire.

    To the first time veiwer, they will think Obi-Wan killed Anakin, and the other sith lord becomes Vader. This will help explain the pained look on Obi-Wan's face in ANH as he explains that Darth Vader . People will assume he is lying, but that he is lying about the fact that he sent him to his death personally.

    As far as the kids, I think we will know Amidala is pregnant, but we will only ever see one of the kids. It will probably be as Luke is given to Obi-Wan (to hide on Tattoine). Yoda will not even tell Obi-Wan about Leia. You know he didn't know in Empire, because Yoda has to
  2. Chyren Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 1998
    star 5
    I think your logic has failed you, this time, my friend.

    There is no way that Lucas can keep the identity of Vader a secret. It is so much a part of our cultural noise now; "no, Luke, I am your father" is a mantra, repeated everywhere in pop culture. The surprise of Vader's identity was out of the bag in 1980. The genie cannot return to the bottle, and Lucas knows this.

    The second thing is, that if he tries to keep it secret somehow, it totally immasculates the story dramatically. From a plot standpoint, the whole prequel trilogy is bereft of any meaning, and the actual fall of Anakin will be without impact, because it must be obscured in order to achieve the effect you're talking about.

    Plus, of course, the secret was right in our faces with the Ep1 teaser poster.

    When asked 'what is the point of doing the prequels when we already know the end of the story' - Lucas replied that this was irrelevant, and that plenty of stories are told with endings known. His example was Citizen Kane. The viewer knows in the first minute that Kane dies, and the supporting characters outline the nature of his life in the first 5. The focus of the plot lies elsewhere.

    With the prequels, the focus now is one of dramatic irony. Lucas is not seeking to preserve the (forever lost) revelations of the classic tril, he is seeking to add a whole new layer of meaning to the events depicted in it, which is a greater dramatic purpose.
  3. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Others have thought as you do Chyren.

    1) Screw us, I am talking about for future generations who will see it for the first time in order. Sure it would be hard to keep the secret, but I think Lucas isn't worried about the audience as much as he is about the story itself.

    2) It will not emasculate anything. It will just take the entire saga to realise the depth of everything, then on future veiwings, you can go back knowing Anakin is Vader and see where he went wrong.

    They will still show Anakin's downfall to the dark side, but they will just make it appear to be such a fall that it kills him.

    Anakin will resist evil Palpatine until the actions of the Jedi Council and Obi-Wan make it hard for him to tell which side he should be on.

    Then, he will finally decide to stay on the light side, but then after the revelation that the sith lord makes about Obi-Wan and the Jedi council, Anakin will go into a rage. This will cause him to turn to the dark side.

    The only thing this will do is make it look like Ben Killed Anakin right after he turned.
  4. bright sith Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 1999
    star 5
    Okay, even if we buy your theory, which I don't, this is something that would be strange.

    If Ob1 drops Anakin, does he know that Vader is him? If not, then how does he and Yoda know in ROTJ?

  5. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg The closeup of Obi-Wan will only allow the audience to see Ben's horrific reaction.

    He will know then that Vader is Anakin.

    Not when he drops him, but after Sid/Palp pulls him out of the molten pit.

    He will tell Yoda.
  6. ami-padme Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 1999
    star 4
    One point of Chyren's you didn't address:

    If they are really going to try to keep it as the biggest secret/surprise of the trilogy, then why do they have Anakin casting Vader's shadow in TPM promotional posters?

    ...And have bars from the Imperial March playing when Obi-Wan and Yoda are discussing Anakin's future at the end?

    It seems to me that they are more interested in foreshadowing than working so hard to keep the "secret".
  7. dehrian Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 6
    Okay, I just went out into the hall and found someone who'd never seen a Star Wars film before. This was pretty much our conversation:

    "Tell me if you've heard this before. Luke, I am your father."

    "Of course."

    "What's it from?"

    "Star Wars."

    "What's it mean?"

    "Darth Vader is Luke's father."

    "Never seen a Star Wars film before, though?"

    "Uh-uh."

    "But you know."

    "Everyone knows."
  8. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Sorry about that, I am real tired at the moment...

    Notice the fervor Lucas went through to get the promotional posters back from the theater owners?

    The other posters will ahve all been bought up by the current fan base who already know.

    The music will only sound vaguely ominous in TPM. Without seeing how it is used in the classic trilogy, it will not mean anything specific.

    Another point that backs up this theory is how George said he flet less fans would like EPII and even less would like EPIII.

    I think this is because many fans want to see Vader running around like in ESB, killing subordinates and taking names.

    Also, like Chyren said, some will feel as if they were cheated out of Anakin's fall.

    Again, this is only a theory, but it would stand to reason that if he wants the saga veiwable in order (something he has said at one point), then it would make sense to keep the two major revelations a secret.

    Otherwise the prequels would have to be seen after the classic trilogy which would have a secondary effect of ruing the surprise of the prequels.

    It is also apparent that TPM was toned down in several areas compared to the classic trilogy.

    Look at the space battle. It is cool, but compared to ANH, it just doesn't hold a candle.

    The saber fight, while extrodinary does not have the same deep resonance of the Vader Knobi duel in ANH.

    This is why I love TPM when other say it should have been better. I detect a major focus on pacing and buildup for the prequels.

    I do think that the climax of 3 will rival the climax of 6.

    I think that the whole point of the prequels will be to mirror the classic trilogy to show how it could have turned out if Luke had not thrown down his saber.
  9. Chyren Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 1998
    star 5
    1) Screw us, I am talking about for future generations who will see it for the first time in order. Sure it would be hard to keep the secret, but I think Lucas isn't worried about the audience as much as he is about the story itself.
    - Maybe, but Lucas is well aware of the cultural impact of his creation, even if it surprised him. He deliberately set out, after all, to create a modern cultural myth, going so far as to base the story on archetypal mythological themes. He knows that this story has become a kind of modern day Iliad (some would think this statement blasphemy, but ultimately Homer's work was originally a populist folktale, just as SW is) that has permeated pop culture irrespective of age and social groupings.
    I think he is a very smart man, and knows that he would be tilting at windmills to attempt to preserve a plot device that basically was only a little bit of cinematic leger-de-main back in 1980.

    In the scope of the whole story's dramatic thrust, the revelation of Vader's identity in ESB is relatively unimportant, I would venture. From the P.O.V. of the writer, the most important aspect of the story is the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. If you try and obscure his identity or fate right in the middle of the tale, you suddenly lose the actual purpose of telling it. I can't see any need to do this apart from keeping the 'smoke and mirrors' appeal of the ESB revelation.
    Future generations will know just as we do who Vader is. Sure, there will be some who don't know, just as there are some who don't know the secret of Citizen Kane, or who the killer is in Murder on the Orient Express, but this is a small demographic in comparison to the rest.

    2) It will not emasculate anything. It will just take the entire saga to realise the depth of everything, then on future veiwings, you can go back knowing Anakin is Vader and see where he went wrong.
    - But if you actually sit down and try to figure out how to achieve this from the standpoint of the writer, you realise it's an impossible task. The actual technical approach to achieving what you're suggesting would be very difficult without compromising the dramatic thrust of the story. I mean, you've suggested a scenario in which it could take place, but this is just a snapshot. In reality, Lucas has to show Anakin becoming seduced, moving toward the darkside, the fight with Obi-Wan (if there is one) and - most importantly - Anakin/Vader's betrayal of himself, his family and friends, and of the Jedi. Without knowing who Vader is at the end of Ep3 - you can't do that. All you have is a bad guy doing bad things to people, and the true horror of Anakin's failure is lost. Lucas has stated that his impetus is to show the failure of Anakin and to delineate just how much of a tragedy this really is. You can't do that if you obscure Anakin's identity at that crucial point in the story.

    They will still show Anakin's downfall to the dark side, but they will just make it appear to be such a fall that it kills him.
    - I understand what you're saying, but I don't see the point of this. I don't see the dramatic potential in comparison to showing the full impact and tragedy of his failure, for which the audience must have full knowledge of what is going on.

    Dramatically, it is essential that the audience knows who Vader is at the end of Episode 3. IMHO.
  10. Obi-Wan Trentobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 1999
    star 1
    I gotta agree with Chyren on this. Go-Mer's the man and everything, but like Chyren I can't see any cinematic way to preserve the surprise of Anakin being Luke's old man and Luke and Leia being siblings. Both of those are basically let out of the bag by the end of Ep. III. When future generations watch SW, they will know, by the time they watch ROTJ, everything that happens pretty much. Such knowledge doesn't destory the momentum of the story. The viewer will no longer be surprised by the turn of events. The viewer is now sympathetic. It's a slightly different role, but it's achievable. Very achievable. What you, Go-Mer, suggest is impossible from a writing stand point alone. No offense; this isn't a flame. I've never flamed you before and won't start now.
  11. Darth_Servo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 1999
    star 5
    I'm gonna have to disagree with Go-Mer on this one (though it IS entirely possible). I think the only who's left to be surprised by Vader's revelation is Luke everytime we watch ESB. But everytime it mentions THE duel anywhere it simply states "they dueled and Anakin fell into a molten pit". Nothing specific whatsoever. The only thing I really don't like about Go-Mer's theory is the part where he states that Obi-Wan sidesteps and Anakin goes over ala Jar-Jar Binks. If all else in Go_Mer's theory comes true I really think that the two will at least duel. The thing that would top off the matador part would be for Obi-Wan to let out a Roadrunner *Beep* *Beep*!
  12. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Chyren He deliberately set out, after all, to create a modern cultural myth, going so far as to base the story on archetypal mythological themes. He knows that this story has become a kind of modern day Iliad (some would think this statement blasphemy, but ultimately Homer's work was originally a populist folktale, just as SW is) that has permeated pop culture irrespective of age and social groupings.And if Homer had written the second half first, would he have sacraficed the ending as he made the beginning?

    I think Lucas does realize that this is more than just an ordinary story, and he hopes to have it last like Homer's work did.

    In that context, he would not care so much that the people of today benefit from it as much as he would worry about future generations. The best way to do that is by keeping the entire narrative solid and cohherant as one complete peice. If he were to dash the drama of ESB with the prequels, then the story would end up anti climactic. In the scope of the whole story's dramatic thrust, the revelation of Vader's identity in ESB is relatively unimportant, I would venture. From the P.O.V. of the writer, the most important aspect of the story is the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. I would totally disagree. The whole saga is about Anakin, but that is part of the surprise. We will think he was defeated in 3, but then he will return like a pheonix, although horribly twisted and evil. This will be an incredible revelation by ESB and future veiwings will have even more to offer the seasoned veiwer. If you try and obscure his identity or fate right in the middle of the tale, you suddenly lose the actual purpose of telling it. I can't see any need to do this apart from keeping the 'smoke and mirrors' appeal of the ESB revelation.You would not lose the purpose. Like I said we will still see Anakin's fall to the dark side. It will be a horrible thing to watch. The only difference will be that we think his turing led to his death. Future generations will know just as we do who Vader is. Sure, there will be some who don't know, just as there are some who don't know the secret of Citizen Kane, or who the killer is in Murder on the Orient Express, but this is a small demographic in comparison to the rest.I still say Lucas cares more about the story than the people who will have it spoiled. He is not in this to impress us, or he would have axed Jar-Jar. He is in this for the story first and foremost. ...if you actually sit down and try to figure out how to achieve this from the standpoint of the writer, you realise it's an impossible task. The actual technical approach to achieving what you're suggesting would be very difficult without compromising the dramatic thrust of the story. I mean, you've suggested a scenario in which it could take place, but this is just a snapshot. In reality, Lucas has to show Anakin becoming seduced, moving toward the darkside, the fight with Obi-Wan (if there is one) and - most importantly - Anakin/Vader's betrayal of himself, his family and friends, and of the Jedi. Without knowing who Vader is at the end of Ep3 - you can't do that. All you have is a bad guy doing bad things to people, and the true horror of Anakin's failure is lost. Lucas has stated that his impetus is to show the failure of Anakin and to delineate just how much of a tragedy this really is. You can't do that if you obscure Anakin's identity at that crucial point in the story.Anakin will still turn to the darkside, his name will not be the crux for this. We will see his horrible seduction by the dark side, the only difference will be the idea that we will beleive he died because of it. It does not need to lose any of it's dramatic effect. It is just that to full appreciate it, you will need to see all 6. I understand what you're saying, but I don't see the point of this. I don't see the dramatic potential in comparison to showing the full impact and tragedy of his failure, for which the audience must have full knowledge of what is going on.They will, but it will
  13. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Only impossible in your mind.

    Ben and Anakin will probably duel, my scenario is a bare bones take on the crucial points. I would not say Anakin will Jar-Jar over the edge, but his hate will make him unbalanced, and he will end up in the pit.

    How is this impossible? All they have to do is make it seem as if Anakin died after turning to the dark side. A dark side Anakin by any other name is still as dark right?

    You don't have to call him Vader for him to show his transformation.

    The fact that Anakin went bad will add to the scene in Ben's hovel in ANH. It will explain why Ben is so pained to tell Luke the truth about his father.

    1) He doesn't wan't Luke to think of his father as having turned bad.

    2) The audience will think he is hiding the fact he killed Anakin.

    3) In reality he is hiding the fact that Anakin is Darth vader.

    The twins revelation is not a toughey in the slightest. They show Amidala pregnant, but they do not specify that she is having twins.

    Ben comes back to meet Yoda after the fateful duel and Yoda gives Luke to Ben, without telling him that "there is another" until ESB. It is obvious in ESB he had no idea about Leia. Yoda had to tell him there was another.

    I beleive that if anyone could pull this off Lucas can.
  14. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Oh yeah, I am not taking your well reasoned rebuttals as flaming. I think this thread is really shaping up into an incredible discussion.

    I still don't understand why it would be impossible.
  15. dehrian Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 6
    This whole argument is rather... well, pointless. I remember reading an interview with GL a few years ago wherein he was asked what his motivation for making the prequels was, and his response was a reference to the first time we saw Vader in ANH. I'll paraphrase: "When Vader walked onto the ship in Star Wars, people automatically booed and hissed, even if it was the opening day. There was this instinctive response to this guy that told you he was evil. With the prequels, I want to turn that response back on the audience."

    That wouldn't work if you didn't know that black clad figure in ANH was Anakin the moment he steps onto the Blockade Runner. GL wants you to know that that is Anakin.
  16. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg My God, just imagine if you saw it for the first time in order.

    You get to ESB and Vader says: Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father....

    We as the audience will be expecting him to revela that Ben killed his father.

    Then he lands the biggest bomb in cinematic history.

    I AM YOUR FATHER!

    Man, even with foresight, I just gave myself a chill.
  17. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg dehrian,

    He will still be able to turn this around on the veiwer, and even more so if he keeps it a secret until then.

    Once you have seen all 6 films (or like us have at least seen 4-6) then he will appear sympathetic.

    Future generations, seeing it in proper order will still have the same reaction to Vader in ANH the first time: "He is pure evil", then when they go back to see it again (you know they will see it a couple of times right ), it will be the same turning on the audience that we faced initially.

    This is going to be incredilbe, and I have complete faith he will pull this off. But many fans as he predicts will feel cheated in some way.
  18. ami-padme Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 1999
    star 4
    "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil, helped hunt down the Jedi Knights..."

    Won't the audience know that Obi-Wan never trained the other Sith Lord, but had trained Anakin?
  19. Chyren Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 1998
    star 5
    I'd just like to point out to anyone who thinks G-M-T and I are at each others throats with this, that that is totally not the case. There are few people I agree with as much, so much so that I rarely feel the need to comment in threads in which he's active; and I've spoken with him via email to say how much I admire his postings. What we have here is a debate over technical aspects of the SW story, and this is exactly what I come here for. There's no personal malice AT ALL, so don't anyone misinterpret that.

    What we have is a technical disagreement over composition. That's what is happening. I'm not flaming G-M-T, and he doesn't take it that way, and vice-versa.

    As a writer (sure, unpublished) who is basically a student of structural technique, I am very interested in Lucas' work. He's a great storyteller, no matter what anyone says, and an auteur of drama and cinema. Sure, people question elements of his style, but in larger terms, there are few more successful storytellers, even if he is not prolific. So I'm very interested in his technique and the elements he uses and his approach. I mean, sure, he's making adventure stories, 'simple' enjoyable movies, but that isn't anything to be sneezed at. I study Lucas like Burroughs pouring over the Mayan codices!

    So that's where I'm coming from. I have to sit back now and have a think about this and see if I can't express what I'm trying to say more clearly. Hmmm.
  20. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Ami-Padme, "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil, helped hunt down the Jedi Knights..."

    Won't the audience know that Obi-Wan never trained the other Sith Lord, but had trained Anakin?All it would take is a scene where Obi-Wan is teaching a class at "Jedi U".

    One of his brightest pupils will end up being the evil sith lord that Obi-Wan and Anakin fight at the very end. Ben never said padawan, only pupil.

    I would imagine that Sidious will recruit another Jedi before Anakin.

    The audience will think this other student becomes Darth Vader, because that is what Ben tells Luke, and that is what we thought we saw at the end of 3.

    I am suspicious of Qui-Gon just before he was killed. He looked at Maul as if he had figured something out.

    One possibility is that he recognized Maul as a former pupil of his own.

    It is also notable that the guy on the Jedi council with the horns may be of some sort of relation to Maul's origin. I beleive they are from the same species, considering Maul's facial marks (the black and the red I am guessing) are tattos and not his natural skin color.

    But I am digressing into a couple of separate theories now...
  21. ami-padme Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 1999
    star 4
    Boy, Obi-Wan's life is really going to suck. Not only will Anakin turn, but he'll take time out of his busy Clone Wars schedule to teach a Jedi class or two -- to have one of his "brightest pupils" fall to the Dark Side as well? It was even more risky to have him train Luke than we thought!

    All this for the small number of people who would be able to watch all six movies without hearing once that Vader is Luke's father. Sure it's all possible, but like the theories that have Sidious and Palpatine as separate people, it seems unnecessarily contrived.

    If Star Wars really is the story of Anakin, what good does it do to not know where the heck he is for almost a third of the story (all of ANH and all but 10 minutes of TESB)when you watch it in the proper order? Sacrificing that for the one-time thrill of "I am your father" would be poor story-telling, IMHO.
  22. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg I don't think Lucas is doing it for the small number fo people who would see it in opder unspoiled.

    He would do it for the story itself.

    The people here and now who are getting these films out of order will be a minor spec in the grand scheme of our planet (as long as human life continues).

    There are other great stories liek Chyren mentioned, where the ending is a commonly known commodity even amongst people who have yet to see it. But the stories are still amazing.

    I just do not think he would be sacrafincing anything about the prequels to save this surprise.

    Of course because we know how it all ends, the prequles are destined to be anti climactic either way, but at least this way there is solid storytelling integrity.

    Ami-Padme, why would you consider it bad storytelling?
  23. dehrian Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 6
    Wait, let me see if I've got this right. And I'm not being facetious here, I'm totally serious.

    The whole point of the prequels is to show Anakin falling to the dark side. Regardless of whether or not we see Anakin take on the black armor, I think we can all agree on that.

    Now, Go-Mer, seriously now, let's look at what we have from the OT and compare and contrast:

    1a. Obi-Wan tells Luke that Vader was one of his former pupils, who was seduced by the dark side of the Force.

    1b. We'll know from the prequels that Anakin was a former pupil who was seduced by the dark side of the Force.

    2. Obi-Wan also conveniently fails to mention that he trained Anakin, information he does not supply until after Luke learns that Anakin was his father.

    3a. We'll likely see Anakin plummeting into a volcano or some such; the only manner in which he'd be able to survive from such an event would be... a life-support suit.

    3b. Vader wears a life-support suit.

    I'm sorry, but I really don't think that there are too many people who would actually be surprised.

    If there are people who are suprised, their reaction, if anything, would likely be one of betrayal. The best thing GL could do as a story-teller would be to not hide it. It would then simply play out as dramatic irony, which is where you, the audience, know something a character does not; in this case, you know what Luke doesn't, that Vader is Anakin, his father, and the interest is in watching Luke react.
  24. wedge3210 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 1999
    star 5
    I haven't really got much to add, but ....

    I just think that we'll know that Anakin is the father of Luke, but we won't know that Anakin is Vader. That way the audience will have all the surprises in that part of story kept intact. No-one will even think Obi-Wan is lying in ANH.
  25. ami-padme Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 1999
    star 4
    Ami-Padme, why would you consider it bad storytelling?

    It completely throws the audience off from following the one person the whole six movies are ultimately supposed to be about.

    The audience would have already felt closure on Anakin's character, having watched him go from the innocent boy, to the hero, to the fallen villian who loses his life once he can't be saved. To have such a complete character arc, and then just say "Oops! Nevermind...here he is, I hope your were really paying attention to him in the first two movies even though you had no idea it was him" seems gimmicky, like a stunt.

    Also, it builds up the character of Palpy's other apprentice two movies longer than it has to. He's dead in Ep. III. But the audience has been through a lot with him. They saw him as a "bright pupil" at the Jedi University. They saw him as a Sith, fighting with Palpatine during the Clone Wars. They've seen him come back from injuries that should have killed him to become the Emperor's right hand man. They think he's been the most feared man in the galaxy for decades. Again, it seems contrived: "OK, I know you thought you were watching that guy in the last three movies, and as such, he is fully established as one of the biggest, baddest villians ever. But actually, he's been dead for about twenty years..."

    Also, it will make the audience feel as if they were lied to by Lucas. For your version to happen, it will have to completely up-end everything the audience was supposed to believe about the final duel -- the climatic event of the first trilogy, the last major thing that we see happen that affects all the characters before ANH. Sure, you can go back and see what "really" happened. But who lead us to believe the opposite? Lucas.

    This is different from TESB revelation. That up-ends one statement by Obi-Wan - it doesn't completely change the nature of major events that came before (actually, it confirms what Owen and Beru said in ANH). Still, who is it that lead us to believe Luke's father wasn't Vader? Obi-Wan. He lied. The answer logically lies within the story, not in the choreography and careful filming of the fight scene (which didn't allow us to know that it was Anakin who survived).

    Finally, the reason TESB surprise worked so well was NOT because it exposed Obi-Wan's statement as a lie. It worked because no one wanted to believe that this big, bad, evil THING could possibly be the father of our hero and good boy Luke. That's the true shock of TESB secret. The shock of this Anakin/Vader thing would be that one guy died and the other didn't. That's not a strong emotional revelation, it's a trick of the way the scene in question was filmed. Gimmicky.

    My two cents...

    [This message has been edited by ami-padme (edited 01-26-2000).]
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