Shhhhh! Don't tell anyone!

Hi, I'm the annoying guy who's server hung.

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[This message has been edited by Vertical (edited 02-04-2000).]

 

You all must hate me now...



[This message has been edited by Vertical (edited 02-04-2000).]

 

Greetings, all. I've been over in the TPM forum, discussing this subject on the "Video Blurb" thread.

Dehrian, I couldn't agree with you more.

Go-Mer, the only reason that it seems to you that the secret should be kept intact is because you've *only seen half of the story*.

I brought up in my most recent post on the other thread the fact that in the OT, Luke was our guide, and that now, Anakin is our guide.

Look, I think plenty of evidence lies in the fact that GL, in ESB also tried to fool us about Yoda for a moment. He was just some annoying (yet funny) gnome. Then, WHOA, he turned out to be the great Jedi Master!!! Same thing as Darth - He was just some bad guy, and then WHOA, he turned out to be Luke's father!

The scope of the story, as we have it in the OT, doesn't let us know that Yoda is the Jedi Master, but GL blew that one already! I mean, we SEE Yoda in the prequels!! He is referred to AS Yoda! There's no skirting around that issue. Secret is blown. Why? Because the first time GL told the OT, the point was LUKE! Luke didn't know who Yoda was, and neither did we. The point now isn't so that we can be fooled about who that little green man is, it's about the fact that Luke doesn't realize who he's talking to! Luke didn't know who Darth Vader was, and neither did we. The point now isn't so that we can be fooled about who that man in the dark mask is, it's about the fact that Luke doesn't realize what he's up against!

GL is CHANGING the way we see the OT. He's already 'ruined' the Yoda scene. I find it more logical to believe that he will show us Anakin's history (ALL OF IT), and show us the tragedy (Ep. III *is* a tragedy), and 'ruin' that ONE line in ESB, rather than NOT showing us what becomes of Anakin, how he is seduced, how he is put into the mask, and how he becomes the evil manchine (I spelled it that way on purpose) that he does, JUST TO PRESERVE A SILLY SHOCKER LINE IN ESB. Which sounds like more of a fan-boy dream? That we'll finally get to see the history of Anakin Skywalker (*** THAT IS THE POINT OF THE PREQUELS ***) or that GL won't touch the beloved sanctity and balance of ONE SCENE in the blessed holy unalterable original trilogy.

Again, I ask, which is more tragic: Losing the greatest warrior ever to have fought at your side in battle, or having that amazing warrior betray you, and join sides with your enemy?

Ep. III will be a tragedy. I can't think of a worse one. Although if GL doesn't show the transformation, that, too, will be a tragedy.

Vertical

 

For those of you who don't believe that GMT's theory holds water because everybody knows Vader is Luke's father, I say this: What an incredible generalization to make. Many people do not know.
I remember the two young boys that my mom used to babysit, and the time I showed them the OT, and they had no clue that Vader = Luke's dad. (they were not toddlers, they were 7-10.) They were quite shocked, when they saw this.
When I saw the ESB SE in '97, there were quite a few children about the same age who reacted the same way. Many young children do not know.
Prior to the release of TPM, my mother (who had never seen a SW movie) asked me, "What relation is Anakin Skywalker to Luke?"
I responded with "Anakin is Luke's father." A moment later, a smile, and a look of realization crossed her face. (She did know that this meant Anakin=Vader.) So if people do know that Vader is Luke's dad, they may not necessarily know that it's Anakin.
And earlier in this thread (MUCH earlier) people commented how revealing the Force to a FTV was poorly handled in TPM. My mother had absolutly no problem figuring out what a Jedi was when I finally dragged her to TPM. Any astute viewer can pick up on it. They obviously have special weapons/powers and are a step-up from the others in the Galaxy, but follow a code that keeps them on the level, and enforcers of peace that they are.

 

This theory is assuming in 50 years when Vader's ideintity and SW is forgotten (so what's the point?) a bunch of children are going to heed the advice of a long-lost quote from GL I haven't even heard yet, and go to the video store (or mini-disc DVD store) and rent all 6 SW movies at once and watch them all in chronological order for some reason. Pretty big assumption.

1) Vader's ideintity will be remembered longer than SW is popular, no point in hiding it.

2) Another way the "surprise" can be spoiled is even if there is a mass population extinction, is every single person going to watch them in chronological order? I didn't watch the Terminator duology that way (even though that was unintentional).

3) Kids who have seen TPM, or EPII or III, and would have any interest in viewing 6 SW movies in order for 14 hours in the future, would have already seen the classics before the new film was out on tape.

4) It's not about keeping a surprise (that's an oxymoron) from 1980, it's a plot point when Vader reveals himself to Luke. When I watch that, I don't think the film is saying, "Ah-ha! Audience, look at me! Loook at me!!!"

5) FTV's actually have to wait until ROTJ to be certain of anything (the "Darth Vader" who "killed" Anakin would be expected to lie to Luke).

6) What about us? We'd be very unhappy with EPIII if it had such a cop-out ending. Screw the "future generations" theory, some viewers watching SW right now (including TPM) are under 7 years old! They'll be around for a while, long enough to see EPIII's theorized ending and longer. I don't think they'd like it either, especially if they've seen the CT. And I doubt even the youngest hard-core fan will show all 6 episodes to his children and expect them to easily grasp it. Imagine explaining all that to a 5 year-old? And do have some sort of idea parents will be saying, "Now listen, you can't watch the holy saga until you're old enough to understand it."

Too many variables, and there is no evidence Gomer Lucas is headed in this direction (the video box, etc..). This theory has more holes in it than swiss cheese.

 

This theory is assuming in 50 years when Vader's ideintity and SW is forgotten (so what's the point?) a bunch of children are going to heed the advice of a long-lost quote from GL I haven't even heard yet, and go to the video store (or mini-disc DVD store) and rent all 6 SW movies at once and watch them all in chronological order for some reason. Pretty big assumption.

1) Vader's ideintity will be remembered longer than SW is popular, no point in hiding it.

2) Another way the "surprise" can be spoiled is even if there is a mass population extinction, is every single person going to watch them in chronological order? I didn't watch the Terminator duology that way (even though that was unintentional).

3) Kids who have seen TPM, or EPII or III, and would have any interest in viewing 6 SW movies in order for 14 hours in the future, would have already seen the classics before the new film was out on tape.

4) It's not about keeping a surprise (that's an oxymoron) from 1980, it's a plot point when Vader reveals himself to Luke. When I watch that, I don't think the film is saying, "Ah-ha! Audience, look at me! Loook at me!!!"

5) FTV's actually have to wait until ROTJ to be certain of anything (the "Darth Vader" who "killed" Anakin would be expected to lie to Luke).

6) What about us? We'd be very unhappy with EPIII if it had such a cop-out ending. Screw the "future generations" theory, some viewers watching SW right now (including TPM) are under 7 years old! They'll be around for a while, long enough to see EPIII's theorized ending and longer. I don't think they'd like it either, especially if they've seen the CT. And I doubt even the youngest hard-core fan will show all 6 episodes to his children and expect them to easily grasp it. Imagine explaining all that to a 5 year-old? And do have some sort of idea parents will be saying, "Now listen, you can't watch the holy saga until you're old enough to understand it."

Too many variables, and there is no evidence Gomer Lucas is headed in this direction (the video box, etc..). This theory has more holes in it than swiss cheese.

 

This theory is assuming in 50 years when Vader's ideintity and SW is forgotten (so what's the point?) a bunch of children are going to heed the advice of a long-lost quote from GL I haven't even heard yet, and go to the video store (or mini-disc DVD store) and rent all 6 SW movies at once and watch them all in chronological order for some reason. Pretty big assumption.

1) Vader's ideintity will be remembered longer than SW is popular, no point in hiding it.

2) Another way the "surprise" can be spoiled is even if there is a mass population extinction, is every single person going to watch them in chronological order? I didn't watch the Terminator duology that way (even though that was unintentional).

3) Kids who have seen TPM, or EPII or III, and would have any interest in viewing 6 SW movies in order for 14 hours in the future, would have already seen the classics before the new film was out on tape.

4) It's not about keeping a surprise (that's an oxymoron) from 1980, it's a plot point when Vader reveals himself to Luke. When I watch that, I don't think the film is saying, "Ah-ha! Audience, look at me! Loook at me!!!"

5) FTV's actually have to wait until ROTJ to be certain of anything (the "Darth Vader" who "killed" Anakin would be expected to lie to Luke).

6) What about us? We'd be very unhappy with EPIII if it had such a cop-out ending. Screw the "future generations" theory, some viewers watching SW right now (including TPM) are under 7 years old! They'll be around for a while, long enough to see EPIII's theorized ending and longer. I don't think they'd like it either, especially if they've seen the CT. And I doubt even the youngest hard-core fan will show all 6 episodes to his children and expect them to easily grasp it. Imagine explaining all that to a 5 year-old? And do you have some sort of idea parents will be saying, "Now listen, you can't watch the holy saga until you're old enough to understand it."

Too many variables, and there is no evidence Gomer Lucas is headed in this direction (the video box, etc..). This theory has more holes in it than swiss cheese.

I hope this post came out alright, the server's been acting up lately. If there are any double posts, my apologies.

 

http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Waning Drill: This theory is assuming in 50 years when Vader's ideintity and SW is forgotten (so what's the point?)Nice, always thinking about yourself. ...a bunch of children are going to heed the advice of a long-lost quote from GL I haven't even heard yet, and go to the video store (or mini-disc DVD store) and rent all 6 SW movies at once and watch them all in chronological order for some reason.Nutty isn't it? Pretty big assumption.Well, lets see. the films are numbered. Why would someone think, "Hey, lets start with 4!"? Thats seems to be the weirder assumption. 1) Vader's ideintity will be remembered longer than SW is popular, no point in hiding it.EVERYTHING OUTSIDE OF THE FILM DOES NOT MATTER TO THE STORY ITSELF. 2) Another way the "surprise" can be spoiled is even if there is a mass population extinction, is every single person going to watch them in chronological order?I am sure if your descendants survive, they will watch them out of order. I didn't watch the Terminator duology that way (even though that was unintentional).There's an argument for you. 3) Kids who have seen TPM, or EPII or III, and would have any interest in viewing 6 SW movies in order for 14 hours in the future, would have already seen the classics before the new film was out on tape.Not when they are all available on tape for their first veiwing. 4) It's not about keeping a surprise (that's an oxymoron) from 1980, it's a plot point when Vader reveals himself to Luke.Yes it is. It is called a plot twist. If they tell you about it before they spring the twist, it ceases to be a plot twist, and becomes a "Well Duh!" (that's a technical term). When I watch that, I don't think the film is saying, "Ah-ha! Audience, look at me! Loook at me!!!"That's nice. Why would anyone? It is saying Anakin is really Darth Vader! Bet you didn't know that (of course, this saga only says that the first time around) 5) FTV's actually have to wait until ROTJ to be certain of anything (the "Darth Vader" who "killed" Anakin would be expected to lie to Luke).Okay, and this means what for your argument? 6) What about us? We'd be very unhappy with EPIII if it had such a cop-out ending. Screw the "future generations" theory, some viewers watching SW right now (including TPM) are under 7 years old! They'll be around for a while, long enough to see EPIII's theorized ending and longer. I don't think they'd like it either, especially if they've seen the CT.Lucas is expecting this kind of selfish reaction from a great many fans. And I doubt even the youngest hard-core fan will show all 6 episodes to his children and expect them to easily grasp it. Imagine explaining all that to a 5 year-old?Are you even trying to be serious here? And do have some sort of idea parents will be saying, "Now listen, you can't watch the holy saga until you're old enough to understand it."Who cares if they do or don't. Like I said, Lucas is more worried about the story itself, than a bunch of whiney fans. Too many variables, and there is no evidence Gomer Lucas is headed in this direction (the video box, etc..). This theory has more holes in it than swiss cheese.Well, I hope you like the taste of swiss, cause that's coming on your prequel sandwich.

Bon apetite.

[This message has been edited by Go-Mer-Tonic (edited 02-04-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Go-Mer-Tonic (edited 02-04-2000).]

 

"What about us? We'd be very unhappy with EPIII if it had such a cop-out ending."

Then be prepared to be bashed mercilessly on these here boards when (and if) it happens because that's how I felt about TPM and you should see MY battle scars...

 

From Go-Mer: EVERYTHING OUTSIDE OF THE FILM DOES NOT MATTER TO THE STORY ITSELF.

From me, earlier:

What I keep coming back to is perception. Luke was our guide through the OT. As he discovered things, so did we. When he found out who Yoda was, so did we. When he found out Vader was his father, so did we. When he learned that Leia was his sister, so did we.

The surprise in ESB is not meant to be a shock to the audience. It's meant to be a shock to Luke. We were simply shocked along with him because he was the one leading us down the path of this story. But he?s not the one guiding us down the path of the prequels. We shouldn?t be watching them as if he?s still there leading us by the hand.

You perceive that the surprise of ESB matters more to the audience than the story. You would rewrite the story to preserve the surprise. That is where you fail.

 

http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg You fail by entertaining the idea the story is going to be changed to acomodate this.

The story has always been planned like this.

 

This server's evil, I tell you. Pure evil!

[This message has been edited by dehrian (edited 02-05-2000).]

 

drat!

[This message has been edited by dehrian (edited 02-05-2000).]

 

you'd think i was trying to set a record....

[This message has been edited by dehrian (edited 02-05-2000).]

 

If you don't think GL would have some serious juggling and re-writing to do to fit your hypothesis, then you haven't been reading your own thread.

And, had the story been planned like this, then Yoda would never have been revealed in the prequels at all. Why keep the one shock? Hell, how do you know which one he's going to keep if he keeps one at all? Maybe Amidala won't die on screen either, and the big shock will be that Luke and Leia are siblings! gasp shock

Hell, let's keep 'em all. Let's go back and digitally remove Yoda from TPM so that the first time we ever see him is in ESB, that way we'll be shocked when it turns out that this great warrior we've heard about for four films actually turns out to be a distant relative of Kermit.

And I hate to break it to you, but I-know-I'm-right-though-I-can't-prove-it-other-than-to-say-I-think-it-would-be-really-neat is not a convincing argument.

 

http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Doublepost.

[This message has been edited by Go-Mer-Tonic (edited 02-05-2000).]

 

http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg dehrian: I did entertain it (unlike you, from whom I can find no comments of concession whatsoever).I have said that it is possible George would ruin the saga, I just added that I don't think he will. If you'll go back a few pages, you'll find that I actually considered the idea, and found precedence for it in The Count of Monte Cristo. However, I ultimately decided that the negatives far outweighed the positives.Show me the negatives. And, had the story been planned like this, then Yoda would never have been revealed in the prequels at all. Why keep the one shock? Hell, how do you know which one he's going to keep if he keeps one at all? Maybe Amidala won't die on screen either, and the big shock will be that Luke and Leia are siblings! gasp shock.He had no choice but to show Yoda, and that would be the least of the surprises. A couple of thing that you and a few others have failed to understand about the way I see George doing it.

1) You can keep the Vader is Anakin secret while still showing the entore fall of Anakin.

2) You can show Amidala die on screen and still not show that Luke has a sibling.

There is nothing about the story that needs to be changed to facilitate the preservation of the integrity of the entire saga. Hell, let's keep 'em all. Let's go back and digitally remove Yoda from TPM so that the first time we ever see him is in ESB, that way we'll be shocked when it turns out that this great warrior we've heard about for four films actually turns out to be a distant relative of Kermit.You can't keep this a secret, there is no way to explain the Jedi or the council without showing Yoda. The other secrets are simple to keep, and better for the overall story. And I hate to break it to you, but I-know-I'm-right-though-I-can't-prove-it-other-than-to-say-I-think-it-would-be-really-neat is not a convincing argument.I will let the third film in the saga do my convincing.

 

You can't keep this a secret, there is no way to explain the Jedi or the council without showing Yoda. The other secrets are simple to keep, and better for the overall story.

This is as much a matter of opinion as my reasoning that it isn't possible to fully show Anakin's fall and redemption while attempting to distort or disguise Vader's identity. As much work would have been required to hide Yoda's identity as would be required to hide Vader's. One is as legitimate as the other.

 

http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg You couldn't be more wrong. Showing Anakin's fall from grace does not require spilling the beans that he is Darth Vader.

Keeping the secret of Luke having a sibling would not even be a speedbump in the story.

There is a big difference between hiding Yoda, who is always Yoda, and Hiding the fact that Anakin is Vader prematurely.

But like I keep saying, you don't have to agree with it. I just hope it doesn't ruin your enjoyment in the film.

Many will let this get to them.

 

Again, perception. There is no difference.

Yes, Yoda's pressence is a strong part of the prequels, and is necessary.

As is the knowledge that Anakin has become Vader.

To get the full sense of the evil he has become, you need to know in ANH that this man is torturing his daughter. That he is willingly participating in the destruction of an entire world. That he is reveling in the destruction of his former master. You need to know that this is Anakin and not some other guy who's name never once came up in four other SW films. You need to feel that this perfect little boy who helped others without want for anything in return has now become an evil force in the universe. You come away from Episode III having seen Anakin slip to the dark side and begin to help the Empire hunt down the Jedi Knights, to arrive in ANH, where they are almost entirely exterminated, and the universe has become a cold and hostile place. This change is represented in microcosm by this one man, Anakin Skywalker, who has gone from being the peaceful and loving boy that the universe itself was, to the hateful, vengeful, wrathful, angry place that the universe has become. You need to know that this is Anakin because he is the emotional core of the entire series of films.

The surprise obviously meant a lot to you, and you wish to retain it for future audiences, but you need to let it go.

 

double post

[This message has been edited by Sergeant Sarlacc (edited 02-05-2000).]

 

"The surprise obviously meant a lot to you, and you wish to retain it for future audiences, but you need to let it go."

I couldn't agree with dehrian more. It's so obvious that the best thing about SW is how the situations and surprises revolve around the *characters* Not the other way around.