Shhhhh! Don't tell anyone!

http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Here we go yet again. Quaff, what is it about this that is so hard for the others to understand?

It is important to have the knowledge that Anakin has become Vader.We will. You just don't find out until ESB. Then we get everything you are looking for on all other veiwings. To get the full sense of the evil he has become, you need to know in ANH that this man is torturing his daughter.You still will, just not on your first veiwing. That he is willingly participating in the destruction of an entire world.We will, just not on your first veiwing. That he is reveling in the destruction of his former master.We will, just not on your first veiwing. You need to know that this is Anakin and not some other guy who's name never once came up in four other SW films.You will, just not on your first veiwing. And who says his name never once came up? You need to feel that this perfect little boy who helped others without want for anything in return has now become an evil force in the universe.You will, just not on your first veiwing. You come away from Episode III having seen Anakin slip to the dark side and begin to help the Empire hunt down the Jedi Knights, to arrive in ANH, where they are almost entirely exterminated, and the universe has become a cold and hostile place. This change is represented in microcosm by this one man, Anakin Skywalker, who has gone from being the peaceful and loving boy that the universe itself was, to the hateful, vengeful, wrathful, angry place that the universe has become.You still get all of this, just not on your first veiwing. You need to know that this is Anakin because he is the emotional core of the entire series of films. You will, just not on your first veiwing.

So, now that I have explained that you still get everything you expect out of your second veiwing, I will explain why it is also important to have the first time veiwer in the dark.

When you first see these films, you will be a young child. You will see the films as cut and dry, good and evil.

As a first time veiwer, you need to see the Niemodians as the bad guys, you need to think Sidious is not Palpatine. You need to think the heros won in the end.

Then you have Episode II, and who knows the details, but lets just say the good and bad blur, things get dark, A romance and betrayal ensue.

Then the third film, you have the ultimate battle between good and evil. Anakin is caught in the middle, and fails to stay on the light side He kills Mace Windu, who is also the latest Sith Lord Darth Vader, which completes his journey to the dark side. The heros lose that Battle and Obi-Wan has no choice but to kill Anakin in a life or death struggle. Sidious prevails, and manages to resurect Darth Vader, Who we are led to think is still Mace Windu.

Then you have ANH, and you see the story as very cut and dry, good and evil, the young prince rescuing the princess from the dark knight, in the big Death Star castle.

Then in ESB, things get dark and the line between good and evil blurs. Suddenly, you realize that The Black Knight is really Anakin, and the people Luke trusted (Yoda/Ben), had lied.

Then in ROTJ, you have the end all be all fight between the good and evil, with the heros prevailing, and Anakin chosig to return to the light side of the Force.

Now that you are through with your first time veiwing, you can see it again, and realise that Anakin is the one who becomes Darth Vader in the suit. Then you get every little tidbit you say you are looking for.

TPM is now very dark, with Sidous/Palpatine secretly manipulating both sides of the conflict, in order to serve his own political agenda. The finale takes on a somber tone as you realise that it is really an upbeat Emperor's theme from ROTJ. You also notice the Vader clues in Anakin's music. Mace Windu's pauses and facial expressions take on a whole new sinister meaning.

Episode II and III will take on new meaning when we realise Vader is actually Anakin and not Mace Windu.

ANH through ESB will give you the same new perspective.

Your w

You just don't find out until ESB. Then we get everything you are looking for on all other veiwings.

But this is pre-supposing that the person will actually go back to watch it again. Not everyone is going to walk away from these films with the love you or I feel, nor be inspired to watch them again. It's one thing to see these films one at a time as they come out, but, for the first time viewer fifty years from now, he's going to look at these and think "Twelve hours. These better be f-ing worth it". Some of those people are going to be disappointed, the way some people today are disappointed with four hours of Gone with the Wind, which to fans of fifty years ago would have been unthinkable.

Your entire theory is built around the fact that someone must watch these twice. You don't see that as a problem? If a person must see them twice in order to get the most out of them, then they might as well start with ANH, get the surprise, then start over again at TPM and go from there. Your way just screws everything up. A person is required to watch them twice in order to get what they should have gotten the first time around.

Your way kills the first time veiwing innocence that is essential for the shift in perspective Lucas want the veiwer to make.

You want the viewer to make. You're not omniscient.

If you look at this objectivly, it become so obvious why Lucas will keep the secrets.

I have been objective. I have answered all your questions as to why it would not work. All I've gotten from you is that you can read GL's mind (apparently).

I've yet to hear from you a single reason why this secret should be kept at all for any reason other than that single moment when Vader reveals his true identity. How does it service the story? Not how does it service the audience. Not how will it affect our reaction to different scenes. How does it make the story better to keep this surprise?

[This message has been edited by dehrian (edited 02-05-2000).]

http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg dehrian: How can you say anything is "ruined", when you conceed that only a first time veiwier doesn't get the signifigance?

Basically your argument against Lucas' scenario has been boiled down to "you are worried that one will not see it more than one time".

Oh man. Who out there is worried that future audiences would not watch it more than once in my scenario?

Oh and when I said the Lucas wants the shift in the perception of the veiwer, I say this because he has said this much about the prequels.

The psychological effect of this on the veiwer will be exremely rewarding,

You don't think that George would only want those of us who saw the classic trilogy to enjoy this change of "Points of veiw" which is a recurring theme in these films do you?

Your way jips all future veiwers out of half of that shift in perpspective. The classic trilogy's subtexts are all rendered pointless.

George is too cool to wuss out like that.

[This message has been edited by Go-Mer-Tonic (edited 02-05-2000).]

GMT: Your posts almost invariably contain one of two refrains.

The first one is where you insist that not only SHOULD your scenario happen, but that you know that George Lucas will do it that way. You don't know that. No one knows exactly what Lucas will do. Even when you insist George Lucas is "too cool" not to do it your way, I would remind you that you are in the minority in expecting the secrets to be kept. No matter who ends up being right, neither side can claim credit for knowing ahead of time what Lucas was going to do. It is just that one group got lucky.

Second, your argument revolved around preserving the first time viewer's experience. That has to do with a viewer's emotional reaction and his or her perception of this unvierse and the events being portrayed. In other words, you are worried about how this six-film series is going to come across to the audience, what they are going to walk away with. That goes above and beyond just a story told in about twelve hours in two hours installments. It goes beyond what's contained on celluloid in the space between the first shot of the Twentieth Century-Fox logo and the last of the credits at the end. Yet your other most common refrain is "Anything outside of the films themselves is irrelevent." Obviously, it is not irrelevant, because what you are trying to defend is outside the films themselves. You're trying to defend a sense of surprise. So you need a much better argument than your blanket dismissal when those of us who want to see Anakin as Vader confronts you with audience perception, because that is not irrelevant--it's what you yourself want to control.

GMT: Your posts almost invariably contain one of two refrains.

The first one is where you insist that not only SHOULD your scenario happen, but that you know that George Lucas will do it that way. You don't know that. No one knows exactly what Lucas will do. Even when you insist George Lucas is "too cool" not to do it your way, I would remind you that you are in the minority in expecting the secrets to be kept. No matter who ends up being right, neither side can claim credit for knowing ahead of time what Lucas was going to do. It is just that one group got lucky.

Second, your argument revolved around preserving the first time viewer's experience. That has to do with a viewer's emotional reaction and his or her perception of this unvierse and the events being portrayed. In other words, you are worried about how this six-film series is going to come across to the audience, what they are going to walk away with. That goes above and beyond just a story told in about twelve hours in two hours installments. It goes beyond what's contained on celluloid in the space between the first shot of the Twentieth Century-Fox logo and the last of the credits at the end. Yet your other most common refrain is "Anything outside of the films themselves is irrelevent." Obviously, it is not irrelevant, because what you are trying to defend is outside the films themselves. You're trying to defend a sense of surprise. So you need a much better argument than your blanket dismissal when those of us who want to see Anakin as Vader confronts you with audience perception, because that is not irrelevant--it's what you yourself want to control.

GMT: Your posts almost invariably contain one of two refrains.

The first one is where you insist that not only SHOULD your scenario happen, but that you know that George Lucas will do it that way. You don't know that. No one knows exactly what Lucas will do. Even when you insist George Lucas is "too cool" not to do it your way, I would remind you that you are in the minority in expecting the secrets to be kept. No matter who ends up being right, neither side can claim credit for knowing ahead of time what Lucas was going to do. It is just that one group got lucky.

Second, your argument revolved around preserving the first time viewer's experience. That has to do with a viewer's emotional reaction and his or her perception of this unvierse and the events being portrayed. In other words, you are worried about how this six-film series is going to come across to the audience, what they are going to walk away with. That goes above and beyond just a story told in about twelve hours in two hours installments. It goes beyond what's contained on celluloid in the space between the first shot of the Twentieth Century-Fox logo and the last of the credits at the end. Yet your other most common refrain is "Anything outside of the films themselves is irrelevent." Obviously, it is not irrelevant, because what you are trying to defend is outside the films themselves. You're trying to defend a sense of surprise. So you need a much better argument than your blanket dismissal when those of us who want to see Anakin as Vader confronts you with audience perception, because that is not irrelevant--it's what you yourself want to control.

http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg George knows this will upset many of you.

It is not about what happens outside of the film, it is about the story itself.

Even if every last person who sees the film knows ahead of time on their first veiwing that Anakin will become Darth Vader, the story will stil be in tact.

Here is the deal.

The narrative surprise of the entire saga is not that Anakin is Vader, it is that many of the truths we cling to rely greatly on our own point ov veiw.

There are several things that look black and white on the first veiwing, but which become incredibly grey on the second veiwing.

This presents a message about judging a book by it's cover.

The reason I know Lucas is doing it this way have to do with the way he presented the story so far, and what he has said was his intention for releasing the prequels.

So far, in the classic trilogy, we have Darth Vader, who is presented as totally evil, dressed in all black, menacing, and completely faceless.

You get to the end of the trilogy, and you realize there is a face behind the mask, and further you realize he didn't start out so evil (the prequels will enhance this revelation).

In TPM so far, it is apparent, the black and white have to do with not knowing Palpatine and Sidious are the same person. you will not be told that until episode 2 or , maybe even 3.

So at first you have sidious, the faceless evil, and Palpatine the good guy. After seeing the entire saga, you come back to see the greys in Palpatine's performance.

So to boil my argument down into what I want is a little hastey. I happen to agree with what Lucas is doing. The direction he is taking.

I feel as if I have explained it to the point where you should be able to see it, but it, but if you can't or won't yet, you will when the films come out.

[This message has been edited by Go-Mer-Tonic (edited 02-05-2000).]

"George knows this will upset many of you."

Please stop talking like this. It's absolutely rediculous and in no way enhances any of your *speculation* to the folks reading this thread.

[This message has been edited by Sergeant Sarlacc (edited 02-05-2000).]

http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg George wouldn't mind.

GMT, I see you haven't addressed my second point, merely continued to assert yours without evidence.

http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg George is maintaining the integrity of the storie's structure.

Nothing outside of the film matters here.

The structure has already been set up for tha udience to not know about Anakin being Vader as ANH starts.

He will not undo that with the prequles.

I did adress both of your comments, and you have not figured it out in over 8 pages now.

I am starting to tire of repeating myself.

I could care less if some of you can't see what he is doing. I am just glad I can, and I think I did an admirable job of trying to share that with the rest of you, however you are all for the most part, set in what you think will happen.

Beleive whatever you want to, I will lose no sleep.

Neither will George

One thing to add to this mind-numbing debate: Gomer, you continue to insist GL cares more about the story than the audience. Why do you think he is writing the story? Just to write a good story? No. He wrote it to give the audience a retelling of the old myths and fairy tales that they hadn't grown up with. We are why he wrote the story.

BTW, can we keep this debate in one thread? I just went to TPM forum and there's one of these in there too..the confusion is killing me...

First of all, I tried to read this whole thread before I posted, however, after pacing myself at a litte bit a day for four days, I still haven't read much further than about page 5. So if someone already posted something along these lines, then I'm sorry.
Well, Gomer, I really like your idea, and I really thought that based on your arguments that Lucas may actually do something like this. I wanted him to do this, and I even tried to think of my own theory, and expand on yours, about how it would go down in Episode III.
Untill I came across this quote, straight from the mouth of the man himself. (GL)
"The SW movies are, in essence, silent movies because they are stories that are told visually."
I hate to say it, but this would contradict your theory of Sidious lifting somebody out and us not seeing it as being Anakin. You say that the FTV would *hear* the line, "I am your father." But if Star Wars was a watchable as a silent film, we would never hear this, and never know that Vader was Anakin. Only a few FTV watching a silent Star Wars movie would assume that the person under the helmet was Anakin in ROTJ. And even then, they would never know for certain. Lucas always said that he saw SW as 'silent movies' and I always wondered how the "I am your father line" would work if that were so. My best guess that he will clarify that in the PT. Maybe (hopefully) he will just disregard his 'silent movie' theory for the next two Episodes in favour of something along the lines you had in mind.
I think that if he went with something like you suggest, the movies will be hailed (albeit, not at first) as the greastest achievement in the history of cinema. (or am I over-estimating?)

http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Lucas was talking about how he would almost rather they were silent films. I beleive your quote was given after he explained that wiriting was simply a nececcity and he only used it to move the story along.

Anyway, they are not silent movies, and every bit of dialogue is needed to understand the story.

But I guess you are right deaf people will have a hard time with what Lucas is doing.

[This message has been edited by Go-Mer-Tonic (edited 02-06-2000).]

Actually, in a SW insider interview this spring, Lucas did say that the movies are made to run completely silent.

[revision below]

[This message has been edited by Quaff-Down Gin (edited 02-07-2000).]

I've thought about this a little over the weekend and have come to the conclusion that the Vader revelation should hinge on the galaxy's knowledge of the true identity of Vader.

I was always under the impression that the galaxy did NOT know that Vader was Anakin Skywalker. No evidence is given that this is so. In fact, if it was commonly known that Anakin was Vader, then Luke were SURELY have heard this before. Anakin, like Luke, was from Tatooine and both had the same last names. There is NO WAY that nobody would mention this to him over the course of 20 years of living on Tatooine. In fact, if it were commonly known, Luke would probably hunted down like a witch and brought to "justice".

If it's commonly known that Anakin is Vader, then I agree that this should be revealed at the end of III, if it's not then I stand by GMT's theories.

So who might know this hidden identity? It's safe to say that the Empereor knew right away, that Ben and Yoda may have known immediately but at least learned somewhere along the way, that Tarkin may have known (but this is never revealed), that Owen and Beru might have known (though no evidence that they knew he was actually Vader was given), that Amidala knew (if she was still alive at the time of his "accident"). But there is no concrete factual evidence that anybody knew upfront that Anakin was Vader (except for the Emperor, and even THAT is debatable).

Until actual proof is given that it was common knowledge throughout the galaxy that Vader was indeed Anakin, or even that Ben and Yoda knew it was him when he dawned the black mask, I cannot rule out the possibility that the secret will be kept until ESB. ANH and ESB are structured to protect the secret. To rule this out would be foolish.

This whole thread is about Lucas keeping a surprise. Well, Lucas is notorious for spoiling surprises.

In the originak trilogy, we hear about Jabba in ANH, ESB, and then we finally see who this notorious gangsta is in ROTJ - a giant slug who can't even move on his own. It was a surprise to me in '83 to finally see who this character was that was hunting Solo down.

But, the ANH:SE ruins that surprise for FTV's. They'll know what Jabba looks like from the new footage. They won't have the opportunity of waiting through 2 films to find out just what this character might turn out to be like. The impact of his introduction in ROTJ is greatly diminished, purely because we've seen him before and he was even the subject of comic relief (Han stepping on his tail). In ROTJ, Jabba just doesn't seem as dangerous because of this.

And of course, Jabba's now introduced to us in TPM. And it seeme Jabba is just as powerful in TPM with the Republic in power (though not on Tattooine) as he is in ROTJ, with the Empire in power. Frankly, I'd rather have seen Jabba rise to power BECAUSE of the corruption of Empire. It would have given the audience more reason to believe that the Republic actually was a good system of government.

The Yoda surprise is another one, but a more forgiving one. I remember how surprised I was when I first saw ESB to learn that this funnly little muppet was a Jedi master. However, it's neccessary for the story for Yoda to be in the prequels, and that scene still works marvelously knowing that it's Yoda. And every FTV who watches the movies in order (1-6) will know that's Yoda in ESB, but they'll still enjoy the scene, just as the rest of us do on our repeated viewings.

When Lucas says fans won't like EpsIII I think he says that because it will ruin the surprise of ESB. Lucas considers fans the people who saw the OT in its original run and have grown up watching it on VHS. He perceives us as the people that consider the OT sacred and don't want any other movie(s) to destroy the impact those movies had on us, and he perceives us as people who want future viewers of the movies to get the same things out of it that we did. This is exactly what Go-Mer is hoping for, but this is, IMO, exactly what Lucas is referrring to when he says the prequels will change the way audiences perceive the OT and EpIII will probably be least popular among the fans. Look at it this way - if Lucas does what Go-Mer is proposing (meaning going into episode 4 we'll think Obi-Wan is telling the truth about Luke's Dad), the FTV who watches the movies in order will have the same reactions to Eps4-6 as those who saw 4-6 first: they'd be surprised that Vader is Anakin, Leia's Luke's sister, etc. This way DOES NOT change the way Eps4-6 are perceived. However, Lucas has said that the prequels WILL change the way Eps4-6 are perceived. That means that people who see episode 4 after episodes 1-3 will know more going in than those who saw episode 4 first.

Gomer, this just hit me! In going with your theory, maybe Obi-Wan doesn't know that Vader is Anakin until Episode VI, but Yoda does know. Ben didn't know about Leia in ESB, so this is definately possible. Not very likely, but it should be kept in mind.

Oh God

ESB: "Luke, I don't want to lose you to the Emperor the way I lost Vader."

ROTJ: "Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I have told you was true... from a certain point of view."

And GL himself hadn't decided that Luke and Leia were going to be brother and sister when Ben's line in ESB was written, so the intent of his line or the character's knowledge thereof is not relevant, nor retroactively true. It is simply open to interpretation.

ROTJ: "To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous."

ANH: "Years ago you served my father during the Clone Wars-"

ROTJ: "Leia... do you remember your mother? Your real mother?"

"Just a little bit. She died when I was very young."

Ben knew Leia's adoptive father. He served under him. Most likely this is how the choice came to be made that this was whom Leia should go to live with.

"Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

"I can't kill my own father."

"Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope."

Ben regards Luke as their only possibility. Period. Whomever the other may be, it's not something he takes seriously.

"Yoda spoke of another."

Nods. "The other he spoke of is your twin sister."

He knows about her. He just doesn't consider her a possibility. As TPM (as well as ESB) showed, Yoda and Ben don't always see eye to eye.

Ben obviously has something against women.

BEN
"That boy is our last hope."

YODA
"No, there is another."

Maybe at this time, Ben didn't think that Leia was going to be much help, as she was about to fall into Imperial Custody. The rest of the scene goes like this:

BEN
"Another?"

YODA
"His sister. Help us she can."

BEN
"Yeah, I know, but the Empire has her, she's no help now."

YODA
"Taken by Vader, she has not yet been."

BEN
"Well, give them two minutes."

YODA
"Always check the future before I, must you? Hmmmm. How you cleaned up at the Sabacc tables, is this?"

BEN
"Don't have a cow."

Well, wadda ya think? If GL uses phrases like "How rude" and "excueese me", then I wouldn't put that final one past him....

One should also remember, when trying to interpret dialogue from that scene, that much of the dialogue was traded from Yoda and Ben. For instance, Yoda's line "Only a fully trained Jedi with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil" was originally written for Ben. That's why it doesn't even sound like Yoda. The speech pattern is all wrong.

I checked this out the other day...

From the Darth Vader tie-in Anakin Skywalker action-figure (1998), in regards to the prequels:

We will see how Anakin became a great Jedi Knight but then turned to the dark side to become Darth Vader.

I know it's nothing big. Just a blurb on an action-figure box, but I just wanted to point out the interesting choice of words used: "We will SEE how Anakin....", etc.

What I gleam from this blurb, is that we will "SEE" Anakin become Darth Vader.

You can throw that in the evidence pile if you SEE fit.

What surprise?

from Hollywood.com

------------------------
A casting memo that circulated around the Internet -- and was confirmed to be true, according to USA Today -- described to talent agents that candidates should look around 19, since the film takes place 10 years after "Episode I." They should be "self-determined, extremely intelligent and forthright" and "should resemble Jake Lloyd [who played "Episode I's" Anakin]." "Episode II," which is still being written by George Lucas, will focus on the love story between Anakin and Queen Amidala, played by Natalie Portman. As the story goes, Anakin and Amidala eventually marry and spawn Luke Skywalker and Princess Leia. By "Episode III," Anakin turns to the Dark Side and becomes the ominously wheezing Darth Vader.
------------------------------------

you only have to read the last two lines, and boom! you know the sory.