Shhhhh! Don't tell anyone!

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Go-Mer-Tonic, Jan 26, 2000.

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  1. the_imperial_senate Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 23, 1999
    star 1
    OHHH...this thread just gives me shivers!!!

    I agree with both sides...I think it would be awesome and very surprising if we discover the revelation like Luke discovered it in ESB.

    On the other hand, the whole saga is supposed to be the rise, fall, redemption of a hero, Anakin Skywalker. The whole saga is more about Anakin than about Luke. If in EP3, we believe Anakin dies, then where is the redemption. For the next two movies, we see some devil named Darth Vader and Anakin is forgotten. It would ruin the impact of the rise, fall, redemption that Lucas was planning to make.
  2. Yoshi the Green Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 1999
    star 3
    Wow, I remember debating in this thread a while ago. I'm glad it survived the move to Snowboard.

    I still think Lucas shouldn't keep the secret...but are we still debating this anymore?
  3. dehrian Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 6
    Ah, Go-Mer, has it really been six months since we went to war on this thread? Never did settle anything, did we? Reminds me of the old quote from when one side met the other to sign an armistace: "So, who won the air war, anyway?"

    I find your idea intriguing - still - but I ultimately believe that the plot points it necessiatates in order to work (Ben needing to train two apprentices, both of whom fall to the dark side, being chief among them) bog it down and keep it from floating.

    Got any new theories to float past me on this one? You were certainly the best debator I ever went up against on these boards. (I feel like Indy and Belloq in the cantina.)
  4. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    It would only take a nudge to make you like me.

    Yeah I haven't really tried. I came up with a possibility just to see if it could be "done".

    I have no delusions of being able to do it like Lucas can.

    But yes, I still beleive he will kep these secrets.

    Someone said that this would ruin the thing about how the whole saga is supposed to be about Anakin.

    But really this would just take him out of the picture enough to understant why ANH is all about Luke.

    You will still get the whole picture on further veiwings. When you see the saga a second time, you will have the decoder rign of having seen the truth at the end, and you will easily see how he eneded up living, and suddenly you will veiw all of Vader's perpsectives as being Anakin's.

    This is going to kick so much *** it hurts me to think about it.
  5. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    people keep saying that the movie will take away from Anakin, but then why is so much of the series focused on charecters like Han Solo or the droids? Because their are many charecters, and it is an esemble picture. It is about all of them. THe hero (if you believe anakin is the main protagonist, I don't,) CAN dissappear for a few chapters only to discover he was their all along. IT has happened in great epics, and i agree with Gomer, it is cool as hell.

    The other thing is, in my estimation, while the films focus may be Anakin, he isn't really the central protagonist. IT is first Qui-gon, Obi-wan, then Luke. Qui-gon is clearly the star of the first two, George indicated that the next to are about Obi-wan, and the final three certainly focus on Luke Skywalker. If anyone saw Akira, that japanamation movie, then think about this. While the story does focus on Akira, that Toyota guy was the central protagonist. Star Wars has THREE leading hero's throughout the film. That may not fit the normal method, but Star Wars isn't the normal film.
  6. Aunt Darthy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2000
    star 2
    Not quite. The OT centers on Luke and Vader/Anakin, but the PT is ultimately about Yoda, Obi-Wan, Anakin and Amidala. Here's what GL himself said:

    "The next film is a love story and I don't know how that is going to be taken by the fans. And then the third film is very, very, very dark. It's not a happy movie by any stretch of the imagination. It's a tragedy. Ultimately the final story is between Yoda, Obi-Wan, Anakin and the Queen. It's really their story. Those four characters".

    Qui-Gonn, as much as I love him, is a secondary character.
  7. Darth Mace Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 1999
    star 4
    Obi-Wan McCartney said:

    ******
    ?People seem to have a hard time understanding that the OT focus was never on Anakin, but on Luke. The story shifts from Obi-wan-Anakin-Amidala to Luke-Han-Leia.?
    ******

    Yes, but GL has said that the overall story is about Anakin. I want to offer up the argument that while we have looked at Luke being the ?star? of the OT, it is in fact supposed to be Anakin/Vader, and it will become more obvious after the PT is complete.

    ******
    ?Star Wars has THREE leading hero's throughout the film.?
    ******

    Yes, 3 leading heroes, but one antagonist?Anakin.


    Go-Mer-Tonic said:

    ?Someone said that this would ruin the thing about how the whole saga is supposed to be about Anakin.

    But really this would just take him out of the picture enough to understant why ANH is all about Luke. ?

    But maybe ANH should be about Vader. This is the time to see what Anakin has really become. GL has said that after watching the PT, you would see that the point of the OT is to see how Vader comes back. (I wish I could find the source)

    ******
    ?You will still get the whole picture on further veiwings. When you see the saga a second time, you will have the decoder rign of having seen the truth at the end, and you will easily see how he eneded up living, and suddenly you will veiw all of Vader's perpsectives as being Anakin's. ?
    ******

    But this is one of the reasons I don?t want the ?secrets? to be kept. IMO, SW is just too big. It is a grand tale that is meant to be enjoyed time and time again. Somehow, I just feel that the ?specialness? of SW would be tainted if the story were told in a way that you were forced to view the entire series a second time just to figure out what is really going on. If the story is so ?good? that you want to view it repeatedly, why should the first time be so different than all the countless times that come after??? In order to keep the ?secrets?, many plot devices are required to ensure that the truth is hidden. IMO, these plot devices will interfere with the wonderful story that is being told on every subsequent viewing, after you already know the truth. For example, why should you have to watch Obi-Wan training a second apprentice on your 10th (or 100th or 1000th) viewing, when you realize that the whole point of the second apprentice was to give you a surprise the very first time you saw it. I just feel like there would be less incentive to repeatedly view the films.
  8. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Wow, this is the third time i've had to type this, because the computer crashed before I could post. So this is the really really short version.

    1. No one can argue with me that when Lucas created the first trilogy, Luke was intended to be the central protagonist. I don't think anyone here SERIOUSLY believes Lucas wrote the OT believing that Vader was the main charecter. Vader wasn't even Anakin skywalker till ESB.

    2. The OT is Luke's coming of age, his discovering of his destiny. I think the prequel is about the training of Anakin, and I do believe it will foreshadow his downfall, but I believe that the PT is primarily the story of how Anakins fate was discovered by Qui-gon, the original hero of the trilogy. It is like a sudden plot change, where the hero is killed off, like in Psycho. Then, it becomes Obi-wans trial, and the torch is passed on to Luke.

    3. Anakins story is sprinkled throughout the series with little bits. He is introduced in TPM, but he is little more than a henchmen in ANH, and his humanity is touched upon in ESB, and only somewhat explored at the end of ROTJ. He is focused on so little in the four movies, it is ridiculous to call him the 'leading' charecter. However, his story is really what binds everyone together, so I admit the plot revolves around him. However, one of the coolest things about the ESB revelation was that the viewer had to suddenly come to the understanding that the man Luke so idolized his father, and he had to come with the grips that this monster before him was also Anakin Skywalker. I believe that this is the definitive moment in the Star Wars series. TO ruin this, would seriously destroy the arc of the story as I view it. Knowing the secret is irrelevent. Knowing what rosebud is doesn't ruin the greatness of Citizen Kane. However, if the secret was put at the beginning of the film, then it would not have been as good a film, see my point? As a story set up for a first time viewer, the secret must be preserved.

    I mean, it was amazing the first time, but now it will be even better. BEcause before Anakin was just a name, now when we watch it, we will see the man. and then we will see him fall to evil, but presume him dead. We will then witness the destruction of the galaxy at the hands of this new villain, Darth Vader, who is pure evil. It will be set up that the new Jedi Obi-wan trains must defeat Vader. Then, the audience will realize that the man they loved in the first 3 films and the villain they loathed are in fact the same man. It will have even MORE potence when we see how good the man is. We will have to forget about Anakin for a few episodes, but he will come back with a BANG. Only in ROTJ do we really see Anakin and Vader as the same, because you can feel the conflict in Vader throuhgout the film.

    Just like Gomer said, we will all believe that Vader is going to say "Obi-wan, killed your father." What a shocker it will be.
  9. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Darth Mace: "But maybe ANH should be about Vader. This is the time to see what Anakin has really become. GL has said that after watching the PT, you would see that the point of the OT is to see how Vader comes back. (I wish I could find the source)"

    I know, the saga ends up being all about Anakin. But the first time you see Vader, you are supposed to think of him as pure evil, then later find out you were wrong. This is one of the most important lessons of the saga. How you can misjudge someone without enough information.

    Once you have seen the the classic trilogy (as all who read that quote have, then you will see Vader as Anakin during ANH. You can already do that after seeing ROTJ. But the Prequels will show us the good in Anakin to make that matter more.

    "Go-mer: ?You will still get the whole picture on further veiwings. When you see the saga a second time, you will have the decoder rign of having seen the truth at the end, and you will easily see how he eneded up living, and suddenly you will veiw all of Vader's perpsectives as being Anakin's. ?

    Mace: "But this is one of the reasons I don?t want the ?secrets? to be kept. IMO, SW is just too big. It is a grand tale that is meant to be enjoyed time and time again. Somehow, I just feel that the ?specialness? of SW would be tainted if the story were told in a way that you were forced to view the entire series a second time just to figure out what is really going on."

    You don't have to if you remember the earlier parts as you see ESB and ROTJ. Everything will sudenly make sense. If you want to go back and enjoy the foreshadowing of this, like in Fight Club, or Sixth Sense, then you can. I for one find that to be even more enjoyable than the original time. Nothing beats the surprise, but that will wear off really soon. Then all you have is the killer foreshadowing that you may have missed before.

    "If the story is so ?good? that you want to view it repeatedly, why should the first time be so different than all the countless times that come after???"

    To teach us about different perspectives and their effect on what we beleive the truth to be.

    "In order to keep the ?secrets?, many plot devices are required to ensure that the truth is hidden. IMO, these plot devices will interfere with the wonderful story that is being told on every subsequent viewing, after you already know the truth."

    I am not worried about that, and I don't think you wil have to either.

    "For example, why should you have to watch Obi-Wan training a second apprentice on your 10th (or 100th or 1000th) viewing, when you realize that the whole point of the second apprentice was to give you a surprise the very first time you saw it."

    Because it is all a part of the story. Just like you see Vader interrogating Leia and you know they are related, but you know they don't know. The story is so good, that the plot devices he uses to keep this a secret will be incredible on any veiwing.

    "I just feel like there would be less incentive to repeatedly view the films."

    Not at all. Did you stop watching the classic trilogy when you found out the secrets? The prequels will be no different.
  10. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Gomer hits the nail on the head time after time.
  11. Darth Mace Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 1999
    star 4
    Obi-Wan McCartney said:

    ?1. No one can argue with me that when Lucas created the first trilogy, Luke was intended to be the central protagonist. I don't think anyone here SERIOUSLY believes Lucas wrote the OT believing that Vader was the main charecter. Vader wasn't even Anakin skywalker till ESB.?

    Sure, I?ll give you that. When GL made the OT, he did it with Luke at the center. But?(of course there?s a but!) I believe he had enough of the back story in mind to know that Luke was not always going to be the center of the story.

    As for when GL decided that Vader would be the father?I used to think that it was during ESB when this was decided, but I?m pretty sure that this was the plan all along (at least by the final drafts of ANH). I?m pretty sure this is discussed in the Annotated Screenplays, but I don?t have a copy in front of me right now. The main reason that GL created an outline for the back story was to know who everyone was, and where they were coming from. I believe the GL created the link between Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Luke at this time, the same link that we know today. However, when GL first did ANH, he realized he had to make a standalone movie in case it didn?t go over with the public and he was unable to continue. Therefore, the truth about Vader?s identity wasn?t raised. However, there is enough foreshadowing in ANH to know that something was planned for Vader all along. Specifically, Ben?s hesitation as he tells Luke about Vader, and Owen?s fear that Luke is too much like his father. I?ll try to find this in the Annotated Screenplays later and post the page numbers, or find out that I?m full of BS in the process. ;-)

    Obi-Wan McCartney:

    ?However, one of the coolest things about the ESB revelation was that the viewer had to suddenly come to the understanding that the man Luke so idolized his father, and he had to come with the grips that this monster before him was also Anakin Skywalker. I believe that this is the definitive moment in the Star Wars series. TO ruin this, would seriously destroy the arc of the story as I view it.?

    No matter what happens in the PT, the revelation will be changed. In the past, without the PT, it has been just like you described. Luke, and the audience, had to realize that his father, whom everyone believed to be a good man, was alive and is the most vile thing in the galaxy (with the possible exception of Palpatine)?but after the PT, we will all see Anakin turn to evil, whether or not we know that he is Vader. Now, while Luke is idolizing his father during ANH and ESB, the audience will realize that Luke doesn?t know the kind of man his father really turned out to be. This not a person that Luke should be idolizing. Now when the revelation comes (assuming you don?t know that Anakin is Vader), the shock is only that Anakin is still alive, NOT the fact that he is evil.

    I look at it like this. Rely only on your knowledge of ANH only?someone tells you that Luke?s father is still alive and he is in the movie. You would probably assume that it had to be Ben. Now assume you have seen the entire PT (which makes it look like Anakin is dead). You watch ANH for the very first time, and someone spoils it for you. They tell you that Anakin is still alive and he is in ANH. After seeing Anakin turn to the darkside in the PT, it will be obvious that he is Vader.

    Something everyone has to realize is that, like it or not, the OT WILL change after the PT is complete, no matter what happens in the PT. The ONLY way to truly preserve all the little surprises of the OT is if you only watch the OT. For example, we already have seen Yoda in TPM. Anyone watching all the films in order for the very first time will not have the little surprise in finding out that the little green guy in ESB is actually a great Jedi Master. Why is it ok to ?spoil? some surprises and not others? I just want GL to tell the story and not have to be preoccupied with hiding things that don't have to be hidden.


    Gomer said:

    ?I know, the saga ends up being all about
  12. Shedeo_Shai Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2000
    Ehm... Anyone who thinks that GL can keep the fact that Anakin is Luke's dad a secret for future generations - think twice.

    They're both called Skywalker.
  13. Darth Mace Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 1999
    star 4
    Shedeo_Shai, they want the fact that Anakin is Vader to be hidden, not that Anakin is Luke?s father?I think!
  14. Shedeo_Shai Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2000
    Ehm... Anyone who thinks that GL can keep the fact that Anakin is Luke's dad a secret for future generations - think twice.

    They're both called Skywalker.
  15. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    I disagree. This secret ends up being the climax of the series I think. We know Anakin was restling with demons, but we won't know the extent of his evil. We simply think that Anakin Skywalker, a good man, had deep emotional problems, and evil darknesss within him, and it was beginning to consume his life. Then he is killed, presumably by Obi-wan Kenobi, to save his soul. Vader, the grandness evil comes, and then we learn that Anakin was in fact not killed, that in fact his evil transformation was complete and he is the second most wicked person in the galaxy.
  16. Shedeo_Shai Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2000
    I get it. Pretty hard to maintain if you know the only thing that's really sure aboyt the remaining prequels is that it's about Anakin's fall to the Dark Side.
  17. Shedeo_Shai Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2000
    What if Vader is not Anakin Skywalker?

    :)

    He's lied before and we all know how Obi-Wan can change his 'point of view' from time to time...
  18. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    hey maybe George WILL come out with the 7 8 and 9 episodes. Or maybe he will do just ONE sequel.
  19. Darth Mace Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 1999
    star 4
    ?This secret ends up being the climax of the series I think.?

    Right here is why we disagree on this issue in this thread, whether or not we should know that Anakin becomes Vader. IMO, this ?secret? in ESB is not the climax of the series. It may be the climax of ESB, but that?s about it. I believe that the climax of the series is ROTJ, when Vader turns back to the good side and destroys the Emperor. I must say, if I thought that moment in ESB what the pinnacle of everything SW, I might want it to remain a secret too?but I don?t feel this way.

  20. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Right but the climax of Vader returning to the light side is started with that surprising revelation.
  21. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Right, but as far as the story, the end of ROTj where Vader turns good isn't the most exciting thing in the series. You have to admit the definitive moment in Star Wars history is that scene, there has been no scene as powerful before or after. You knew Vader was going to save Luke in the end, it was obvious, even when i saw it the first time at age 10. Of course, i saw Jedi first, but even for me, that ESB scene on the ledge is the most exciting scene in any of the movies thus far. If he builds and builds, the ESB scene is a huge emotional payoff. If he blows the secret, the shift of the series changes, and it would seriously take away from the original intent of Star Wars, the story of Luke.

    People say that such and such takes away from the story of Anakin, but then why devote so much screen time to other charecters? because the story of charecters like Han and Leia and Lando are important too, and I think it would take away the focus from Luke, where the OT is supposed to settle. Even in Lucas' orginal 9 part series or whatever, Luke carries on after Anakin dies. This is why Obi-wan dies in ANH, because he is no longer the central hero, Luke is. That said, the ESB Vader scene is the most important scene for Luke's charecter.

    Of course, I think this is a fundamental philosophical difference I have with 90% of the board. People seem to think that Star Wars: The Life and Trials of Anakin Skywalker, when Star Wars is a myriad of tales of hero's and stories from a galaxay far far away...
  22. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I know that the final turn of Vader in ROTJ will also be augmented by the prequels. TPM gave me more impact out of the end of ROTJ, just knowing how nice Anakin starts out.

    But when we see that final duel in III, it will mirror the end of ROTJ so well, that we will expect Luke to turn like Anakin did.

    I know every time I see that part where Luke almost turns, I tear up. I get the same reaction every time I listen to that musical peice in my car.

    I can never maintain a dry eye for that.
  23. Darth Mace Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 1999
    star 4
    Sorry, Obi-Wan McCartney, but you really lost me with the last one. You think the ?moment? in ESB is the most exciting thing in SW?but you saw ROTJ FIRST?so, even though you already knew the truth before you ever saw that scene for the first time?it still had a huge emotional impact!! Wow, I couldn?t have said it better myself. This is exactly my point. The ?revelation? in ESB will always be a surprise to Luke. This is when Luke is supposed to find out, and when things start to change. That is how it will always be. The argument here is that the ?secret? in ESB has to be preserved for the audience, but since you said that it still plays big to the audience?even if the audience knows the truth (I?m using you as an example)?why would you have the true story of the PT toned down just to keep a one time surprise that is very dramatic even when you know about the surprise beforehand???

    IMO, the ESB scene has always been extremely dramatic even when you know the truth. I just don?t see a reason to hide things in the PT that could otherwise provide that much more drama just for a one time surprise that would still be a very dramatic moment when you know the truth ahead of time. I just feel that the effect of the PT would be needlessly reduced by ?hiding? the truth.
  24. ThiefCatcher Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 1999
    star 2
    Boba Funk returns as Thief Catcher....

    I'll just say this: When I was but a lad and growing up and was watching ANH and TESB (before ROTJ came out) one mysterious subplot was Jabba The Hutt. Han mentioned him in both movies, but we never saw him..it added quite a mystique to his character: Who was this Jabba the Hutt? Man, he sounds mean...especially, if cool, cocky Han Solo is so scared of him. Finally, ROTJ came out and I can tell you this young people: One of the big things that fans were expecting to see was Jabba The Hutt...finally revealed! Pretty dramatic stuff, huh? He's a giant slug! Oh my!

    Enter ANH: SE and TPM. What do you know? Lucas just destroyed that dramatic Jabba build up! And believe me, Jabba wasn't interconnected with the Prequel backstory...his appearences in ANH: SE and TPM have been mere cameos and superflous for the most part. So the question is why didn't Lucas save Jabba just for ROTJ in order to keep up the dramatic build up? What purpose was there to reveal Jabba before his dramatic entrance in ROTJ?

    Face it, Lucas isn't in the business of keeping secrets. He could have easily have left Jabba out of the ANH: SE and Ep.I, but didn't. Keeping Anakin = Darth Vader a secret would be even harder to do considering the role that Anakin has to play in the next movies. There's nothing from the Lucas Camp to suggest that he's keeping the secret...so just live with it....
  25. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    I think I was misunderstood. It is still awesome, but it is still awesome in the way that every time you watch the Usual Suspects, you know who Kaiser Sosa is, but it is still a fantastic movie. However, if they told us in the BEGINNING of the movie who he really was, then it wouldn't be nearly as good, get my point?

    Like, people make the analogy that no matter what, it is a surprise to LUKE, and we are watching his reaction. Agent Kujan is shocked every time we see it, but if the audience is told at the beginning of the film, it would totally ruin the flick.

    The other important thing to think about, using this analogy, is how the story is told. The story is told in such a way as to keep the origin of Kaiser Sosa a secret, untill the very end. Imagine Ususal Suspects if we are told and shown throughout the film that Joe Shmo is Kaiser Sosa, would the film be nearly as good? No. BUt every time we watch it afterwords, we know, but the beauty is in how it is told. Same here. I don't know how to explain it better, I realize it is a hard concept to understand, I don't even know how to explain it properly. I will keep trying, but those who disagree with me, please tell me what you think of what I said.
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