Shhhhh! Don't tell anyone!

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Go-Mer-Tonic, Jan 26, 2000.

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  1. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Oh yeah, I also forgot about Citizen Kane. I think I said it somewhere earlier, but knowing what ROSEBUD is doesn't ruin the movie, but if they had TOLD you what rosebud was the first time, it would be pretty boring.
  2. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Well truth be told, we will see now won't we?
  3. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
  4. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Man, hate to see this thread get past the 10th page...

    Surley someone has a good argument for why he won't keep the secrets right?
  5. Darth Mace Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 1999
    star 4
    I'll give a good reason to tell everything in the PT as soon as someone can give a good reason why everything should be saved for the OT. ;-)

    But seriously, whether anyone chooses to listen or not, there are some good arguments on both sides. I will admit that it COULD be possible to keep all the secrets (IMO, it's not the best thing to do). It COULD make that one moment in ESB more intense the first time (and only the first time that you see it), but it COULD also be just as intense (but in a different way) if you know who Vader is the entire time. If the viewer knows the truth, I would think that you would be on the edge of your seat as father and son are facing each other, and you know that Luke has no idea what's going to happen. IMO, you would never think that Vader would lop off Luke's hand and reveal the truth while he is hanging precariously above a seemingly bottomless pit. But this is exactly what happens.

    One point that I know I've made before...and you will either know exactly what I mean, or will be totally confused by what I say, because there is no real argument against it (this means you shouldn't try to argue against it;-)...

    But some of you keep on about keeping the secrets for the story...but I've tried to say along, that we don't know how the story really goes yet. We've only seen the second half of it, and a small part of the beginning. We know how it ends, but we don't know how it gets there yet. Maybe the point is for there to be a surprise at the end of Ep5, but maybe the point is for the viewer to learn the truth about everything exactly at the time that it is happening.
  6. Darth Shifty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 2
    I agree: even if the secret is revealed pre-ESB, that awesome scene still maintains its intensity. Hey, there's an easy way to test this: just watch that scene again :). If you still really enjoy the scene, the point is made....

    Having said that, you're also right when you say it COULD happen and it wouldn't be bad at all if it did....personally, I think it would be awesome. It would completely change the story of the prequels we've all been speculating about.....but if we don't get it, there is absolutely nothing lost....
  7. Lord Mauly Mall TFN/JC Banner Artist Team

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    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 7
    I can think of a good reason why Lucas won't try to maintain the secrets of the OT. It's one word that summarizes what the entire saga and *especially* the prequels are about: change. As Lucas has said and as we've already seen just from TPM, our perception of the OT has changed and will continue to do so. Just as Luke's father was revealed to him in the OT, more revelations will unfold in the prequels that will put everything in perspective. Once most of the nagging questions of the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan's failure, Anakin's fall, Palpatine's rise, and so on are shown to us, there will be no need to further explain what has either been shown to us on screen or just suggested.

    As the scene with Anakin and Shmi indicated to us in TPM, change is the point of the prequels. People will change, planets will change, politics will change, and most importantly as I mentioned above, our perception will change. Who is to say that once Anakin starts to turn to the dark side that we'll still like him? His eventual fall will come about because we see it coming, besides the fact that we've heard about it for years. A tragic hero, at least how Lucas has painted Anakin, isn't one that is completely destroyed. But rather stumbles, falls, and eventually redeems himself.
  8. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Right, but I am in the minority who believes that Star Wars is more than just Anakin Skywalker.

    Nobody has responded to my point about such 'secret oriented' films such as The Usual Suspects or Citizen Kane. Upon second viewing, once the secret is known, the films are still terrific, same with Empire. Even if you knew beforehand, they are both great films. However, if the film were presented in a way that the secrets were revealed at the beginning of the film, no matter what the film wouldn't be nearly as good.

    Tell me, if at the beginning of ESB Vader told the Emperor that his SON, LUKE SKYWALKER was causing trouble, and the secret was revealed before the dual in ESB, would the scene be nearly as monumental as it is now?
  9. Maul_brat Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2000
    star 1
    O Tay. I believe that, for one, the ending suggested is totally lame. Anakin will most likely go screaming mad at Obi-Wan. But to have Obi-Wan just step aside? That's f***in' stupid. I thought The good ol' Chosen One would have better reflexes than that.

    Now that thing with Obi-Wan holding Anakin's hand over the lava pit is good, but there better be a DAMN good lightsaber fight before that. You would think that Lucas would spend over $100,000,000 for something better than Ewan McGregor taking a little step.

    If it were to happen like you say (and for that to happen Lucas would have to smoke one hell of a Jedi Pease Pipe) it would be the LAMEST ending in cinamatic history. I think that if George Lucas would make fans wait 28 years to complete his incredible saga, he'd better have something VERY good in store.
  10. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    My whole point it based on your arguement that ESB would be powerful either way.

    So why would you only want one way?

    If he keeps the secrets, then you will get the bonus of being surprised when you first see the saga, and after that every time you see it, you WILL know the secrets and it wil play powerfully in the way which you describe.

    But if he loses the secrets you are losing one whole way to enjoy that.
  11. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    "But some of you keep on about keeping the secrets for the story...but I've tried to say along, that we don't know how the story really goes yet."

    Well as you point out, we do know where things end up. The reason I am saying this would protect the known narrative is becuase the existing trilogy relies on the idea that Vader's identity is not known to the audience as it starts. Therefore, for the prequels to properly match that, they have to meet ANH without spilling those secrets, to keep the narrative structure of ANH ESB And ROTJ in tact. Keeping the secrets is the only way I can see these dots being conected properly.

    "I can think of a good reason why Lucas won't try to maintain the secrets of the OT. It's one word that summarizes what the entire saga and *especially* the prequels are about: change. As Lucas has said and as we've already seen just from TPM, our perception of the OT has changed and will continue to do so. Just as Luke's father was revealed to him in the OT, more revelations will unfold in the prequels that will put everything in perspective."

    I totally agree.

    "Once most of the nagging questions of the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan's failure, Anakin's fall, Palpatine's rise, and so on are shown to us, there will be no need to further explain what has either been shown to us on screen or just suggested."

    Right, but you realize that he could very well mean that after seeing the entire trilogy you will have this changed perspective. I totally agree Lucas is all about the shift in perspective. When we saw the trilogy in order, we saw Vader as a purely evil man in ANH, and after the revelaiton, we can go back and see Vader in a different light (in ANH).

    If he were to spill the secrets, there would never be this shift in perspective ever again. I mean, first time veiwers will never see Vader as purely evil, so coming to the conclusion he was not all bad is not a profound revelation later on. To me, this appraoch teaches us a very valuable lesson about judging everything at face value. You have to be wrongfully "led" at first for this to work.

    So you see, the "change" you are talking about would completely go away if he didn't keep the secrets. The only people who would "benefit" from this change in perspective would be those of us who saw the films in the order presented. But Lucas says he is making the prequels for the 10 year old boy who does not exist yet. This indicates that he is just as concerned with giving them this amazing shift in perspective as we have had so far.
  12. Darth Damo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 1999
    star 3
    500....hehehe!

    Dont have much else to say other than i wanted to be no. 500!
  13. Darth Fierce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2000
    star 4
    Obi-Wan McCartney - you have good points in regards to Citizen Kane and The Usual Suspects. However, here's where I think you're off: The plot twists in those movies is a big part of why the movie was made in the first place. The narratives in those movies center around the fact that there's a big surprise at the end. I don't think making that type of movie was ever George's intent with SW. He's trying to amalgamate myths and legends into a modern fairy-tale, and the Vader/father surprise was more or less a "happy coincidence", rather than the whole basis of the saga. That happy coincidence was born partly from the fact that Lucas hadn't decided for sure Vader was Luke's father when he made ANH.

    And, I understand your point about SW being more than just the story of Anakin Skywalker, but if George was here, I think he'd disagree. He's saying (at least today) that it is just that. Whether or not that was true back when he made the OT is up for debate, but that's what he's saying now.
  14. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Hiding the truth does not make it untrue.
  15. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    Those other "surprise-oriented" films mentioned are also both told out of sequence. We see Kane die before his childhood and young adulthood are revealed. We witness the death of all those poor unfortunate crooks before the story of what happened before is given. So that is once again an argument in favor of watching the films in the order released.

    And for the record, Lucas did not make Episode IV first simply because he didn't have the technology. That and a messy divorce were the reason it was released in 1999 instead of 1986, but Lucas never had any intention of making Episode I first. He did not create a backstory and then decide because of technological restraints to start in the middle. He wrote a script, then wrote a backstory so that the script he had written would be the middle, which he felt was a more interesting part of the story.
  16. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Yeah, I laugh whenever I see someone talk about how Lucas had it "all planned out." Whatever!
  17. I_am_not_a_gun Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2000
    star 3
    Indeed. I think he's lucked out to a certain extent that he alluded to this bigger world in ANH and we all went for it in a big way - especially as with Empire and the Vader revelantion he got us all hooked, and has been living off that ever since.
  18. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Of course he had this planned out in advance.

    The story he wrote was too big, so he had to pick a part to make into a stand alone movie. He chose the middle, because with it's straightforward plot and traditional "hero saves the day" style, it would be the best accepted by the public.

    He felt that episode I was too complex. I mean without the final chapters to go on, it would seem like a standard fare hero saves the day film.

    Without realizing the much deeper layers to the film, you don't see that it was the bad guy who really won.

    Now I am not going to say he had Midichlorians, or even Jar-Jar planned out for 20 years, but the basic story of Palpatine's rise to power has been sketched out for some time.

    A breif description of this rise can even be found in the ANH novelization. Complete with a blurb about how the Republic tried to define the Force with Science.

    So while the word "Midichlorians" is new, the idea that the Republic used science in an attempt to define the Force is certainly nothing new.
  19. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    Lucas was well into the writing process by the time he developed his backstory; by his own admission it was while writing the third or fourth draft.
  20. DarkSithMax Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2000
    geeeez when i'm an adult i'm gonna make my kids watch them all in order and i ain't gonna tell the anything. it's gonna be kewl :)
  21. Darth Mace Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 1999
    star 4
    "Of course he had this planned out in advance."

    Ahhh!! But do you really think that GL planned all along to make 6 episodes and have a surprise revelation come at the end of the 5th chapter??? I find this very hard to believe. Especially considering that the Annotated Screenplays even show that GL originally planned NOT to reveal Vader's true identity in ESB. But for all we know, he may always have planned to reveal this truth in Ep3.
  22. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    He has absollutely changed his original plan signifigantly since '77. But most of the changes regarded the classic trilgies finale, and the complete omission of the third trilogy.

    George has been quoted recently as saying that the story for the prequels has changed "very little" in 25 years.

    Now here is what happened to the end of the saga.

    Originally, Lucas was going to have "the other" Yoda spoke of to be some other Jedi who had escaped the purge and who had hidden, much like Yoda.

    Rotj would have ended with Vader turning back, but still surviving. The Emperor would have "gotten away" as well.

    Then the third trilogy would have been Anakin, Luke and the "other" ganging up on Palpatine.

    The finale of the third trilogy would have been Vader finally vanquishing the Emperor, and he woudl have then died in the process.

    He changed his mind on all of this becuase he suddenly realised while makinf ESB that at the rate he was going, if he had finished three trilgoies, he would be nearly dead, and he also wanted to do other things with his film career.

    So he chopped the third trilgoy and condensed the basic points into ROTJ. using Leia as a conveinient way to tie up the bit about the "other". This also gave Lucas the "reason" he needed for Luke to finally lose it at the very end, so all in all, it worked out rather nicely.

    That is why he is saying now that the story in fact does end in the 6th chapter, because he basically took his original plan for the third trilgoy and just condensed it into the ROTJ finale.
  23. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    interesting. i did not know that about the third trilogy.
  24. Darth Mace Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 1999
    star 4
    "George has been quoted recently as saying that the story for the prequels has changed "very little" in 25 years."

    But this is the part we are discussing. I am merely trying to point out this...has GL intended all along for Vader's true identity to be revealed in the 5th episode of a 6 part series? I know with certainty that this is NOT the case (even though this does not mean that it will be revealed in the PT). Speaking of the PT...I've always thought that GL had a pretty good outline of what happens, and not the specifics of how it happens. My question would be; does this outline specifically state that Vader's true identity will be hidden from the audience, or does it simply show how Anakin turns to the darkside and becomes Darth Vader? I really have to think that it would be the latter. IMO, GL would have to change the story that he has had all along if he were to try to hide Vader's identity...unless this is something that has been planned all along, which I think is very doubtful.
  25. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Darth Mace: "But this is the part we are discussing. I am merely trying to point out this...has GL intended all along for Vader's true identity to be revealed in the 5th episode of a 6 part series? I know with certainty that this is NOT the case (even though this does not mean that it will be revealed in the PT)."

    It is true that Kirshner was the one who thought he shoudl do it without certainlty in ESB. His point being that there had to be some sort of climax to this chapter, and leaving it at Vader's word against Obi-Wan kept it from being fully revealed.

    George obivously agreed and the rest was history. When he made ANH, he said he wans't even sure if he would make Vader his father, but it was obvioulsy one of the ideas he was kicking around because Vader means "Father" in dutch. I remember people speculating about that after ANH aired. The people (some writer for some sci fi magazine) had read into all of these "father" meanings, but never came up with the idea that he was Lukes' father.

    "Speaking of the PT...I've always thought that GL had a pretty good outline of what happens, and not the specifics of how it happens. My question would be; does this outline specifically state that Vader's true identity will be hidden from the audience, or does it simply show how Anakin turns to the darkside and becomes Darth Vader?"

    Well nothing can change the truth, and I am not privy to this "story outline" he has for the prequels. So in short, I have no idea. He may revela it, I am just thinking otherwise is more likely from what I can see.

    "I really have to think that it would be the latter. IMO, GL would have to change the story that he has had all along if he were to try to hide Vader's identity..."

    Why? His identity was a secret during ANH.

    "...unless this is something that has been planned all along, which I think is very doubtful."

    Well whatever he is going to do has been pretty much "the plan" since around '77, with some minor changes here and there as he fleshes it out.

    Lucky for us, we have no idea what that is for sure.
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