Shhhhh! Don't tell anyone!

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Go-Mer-Tonic, Jan 26, 2000.

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  1. Darth Mace Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 1999
    star 4
    "Why? His identity was a secret during ANH."

    Let me try to explain more clearly where I am coming from. My understanding is that GL began to write what became ANH nearly 30 years ago. Things changed very drastically during many re- writes. Eventually, characters, plotlines, etc. became what we know today as ANH. As part of the process or writing the story for ANH, GL developed an outline for a back story. The primary reason was so that he would know who all these characters were, and where they came from. My guess is that this outline basically states how Obi-Wan came to meet and train Anakin. How things went wrong that ended up pushing Anakin to the darkside, and how Anakin came to be Darth Vader...requiring a life support suit for survival. I highly doubt that this outline is detailed enough to cover exactly how all of this will be presented to the audience. For GL to go strictly by his original outlines, I would have to think that the story would be very straightforward, and only filled with facts...among those being the fact that Anakin is Vader. GL spent a lot of time writing the script for Ep2 (and will likely do the same for Ep3). The point of this is to finalize all the details and determine exactly how this will be presented on film.

    As part of my contentions, I believe that GL had already decided that Vader would be Luke's father by the time the final scrip for ANH was completed and filming began. I once thought otherwise, but I was proven to be wrong in another thread...very good sources were included that showed that GL knew who Vader really was all along(I would love to find this thread again). The reason that Vader's identity was not dealt with in ANH is pretty simple. GL didn't know if SW would be successful, so he wanted to make a stand alone movie. He figured that the audience could actually be turned off to SW if things were not wrapped up nicely in one film (sequels were not the norm in 1977). So, when watching ANH, with no other knowledge of SW, it does seem that Vader's identity is a secret. However, IMO, this does NOT mean that this truth cannot be revealed at an earlier time (such as Ep3). I think about it like 6 chapters of a novel. Should every relationship be clearly spelled out in every single chapter? Just because something is NOT mentioned in chapter 4, does this mean that it cannot have been mentioned in chapter 3? Besides, where in the context of ANH, could it be mentioned to the audience that Vader is really Anakin Skywalker? In this film alone, there is no time to tell the audience this, but it does NOT mean that the audience cannot be told this sometime earlier.

    I believe it will be very interesting to see how GL handles all of this.
  2. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    To the top for the people who started the new thread on this...
  3. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Man, I can't believe we have to wait five years before we can find out the answer.
  4. AL Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1998
    star 5
    Do we have to talk about this AGAIN?
  5. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    We could I suppose, what did you miss before?
  6. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Just wanted to make sure you all knew that George is not going to show Anakin becoming Vader or Luke having a sister in the third episode.
  7. DarthHutt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2000
    star 5
    Vader will have at least a small scene in EP3. Lucas has already said that James Earl Jones will record about 5 minutes of dialogue for the movie.
  8. AL Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1998
    star 5
    I am posting the same reply as I did on the fifth of this month:

    "Do we have to talk about this AGAIN? "
  9. DarthHutt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2000
    star 5
    The next movie won't be out for 20 months. We should expect to see redundant messages on just about every topic for some time to come.
  10. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    This isn't redundant, it is very important. Unlike other redundant speculation, like Sidious=Palpatine, this could conceivably still go either way. We only have the slightest of hints to go on here.

    Yes Vader will be in the third episode. We will just not realize it is Anakin. We will think Anakin is dead.

    I mean if we hadn't seen the classic trilogy that is.
  11. Lumpawarump Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 1
  12. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
  13. IronParrot Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 1999
    star 5
    It will be like Schrodinger's cat. Anakin is both dead AND alive.
  14. mp3PO Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2001
    star 2
    I'm sure this has been said before, but the "surprise" is still a surprise for Luke. Sure, we were all shocked to learn Vader was his father, however, When we watch the films from 1 to 6, we may not be surprised but will still feel sympathy for Luke, as he knows not the true identity of Vader or the trying times ahead for him. When we watch a horror movie, someone in the film always has to go into the basement alone, as a viewer, we know what's in store for that person, but it doesn't take away from the surprise any, because we still have the reaction of the character to experience. Same thing here. The story is about Vaders fall and redemption, and in the scope of the entire saga, your little surprises, while important to the character, are not all that important to the viewer. They were important 20 years ago because the SW universe was much smaller.
  15. C-3P0 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2001
    star 4
    I hope the suprise is maintained as well. I think it could be done.

    However, if Lucas maintains the ESB relevation, many rabid fans are going to be upset.
  16. Vonn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2000
    star 4
    First of all, I'd like to say that one of the things I hate most is having to read through 19 pages of comments and one whole page of server screw-ups before I can comment on current state of the conversation.

    First of all, I agree with Go-Mer_Tonic.

    I also agree that "Yes" everyone knows Vader is Luke's father. ->>>>>>>>>But<<<<<<<<<-, that is NO reason to sacrifice story just for the sake of something popular culture already knows. For example, we ALL know that the war is bad and full of atrocities. Yet, do we really need a dozen or more war movies that essentially make the same political statement. My gut reaction tells me no, but then again, a lot of those war movies have better plots than others (eg. Full Metal Jacket in some cases seems to have a better plot than Platoon, but they both seem to make the same political statement). So, my final answer is: Yes. Just because the public already knows something and it is ingrained in their consciousness does NOT mean that good storytelling should be sacrificed because of it.

    Sure, there is no way that Lucas can hide the secret. However, Lucas sees Star Wars as a long 12-hour movie, and it is simply BAD STORYTELLING to assume your audience already knows what is going to happen therefore not even try to hide surprises.

    Take Citizen Kane, for example. I think most of us here know what Rosebud is/means. So, do you think (since now that everyone knows), Citizen Kane should be re-edited to eliminate the surprise?

    Or better yet, do you think Spielberg should re-edit Saving Private Ryan so we can see the name on Tombstone at the very beginning so that we know from that start that Ryan makes it out of their alive and Tom Hanks gets killed? I mean, after all, we ALL knew that to begin with.

    Or what about Presumed Innocent.....no, I won't ruin that one.

    But, hopefully you get my point.

    Lucas should NOT go about writing the prequels ASSUMING that we already know the secrets.

    To put more pointedly, since we all KNOW Sidious/Palpatine, do you think AOTC should reveal Palpatine as Sidious in the very first scene? Or do you think the story should play out, so that (story-wise) we discover who Sidious is when the characters do?

    I think this poses an interesting dilemma. To whom should Lucas pay the most attention; to the audience or the story. Lucas has clearly already made that decision, and yet some people refuse to accept it.

    Final point: If we do not see Anakin physically strapping on the Darth Vader outfit or it being physically strapped to him (to where we the audience see Anakin's face being covered by the mask), then Lucas has chosen to stick with the storytelling, instead of ignoring the storytelling because the audience already knows.
  17. DarKnight Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2000
    star 2
    20 pages?? I just tripped over this thread and I can't believe it has gone on for over 20 pages!

    This speculation thread about surprises just demonstrates that Lucas made a mistake in creating a prequel trilogy rather than a sequel trilogy. Essentially Lucas has painted himself into a corner because two of the biggest plot twists in ESB are rendered ineffective if, IF, Lucas is as uncreative as he was for TPM.
  18. DarthVegas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2000
    star 4
  19. THE_DOODE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2001
    star 4
  20. Darth Mace Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 1999
    star 4
    In light of recent events (that being the worldwide release of AOTC), has anyone changed their opinion? :D
  21. wedge3210 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 1999
    star 5
    I have the last post on the first page and I still have hope that it can be salvaged. I don't know how... but there's got to be something Lucas can do to pull a rabbit out of a hat and keep Vader's identity as Anakin a secret so the whole father/son thing can remain the surprise.

    I was under the impression a few years ago that Anakin would asume the identity of another charachter. It's probably not going to happen, but even if it doesn't we'll still feel for Luke in the ESB situation.

    The Luke and Leia thing isn't too big for me. Them discovering the secrets themselves is a big part of their own path. The Vader not knowing about Leia is a lot more intriguing for me.
  22. ami-padme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 1999
    star 4
    Come on, there's still one whole movie left for Obi-Wan to get a new apprentice, train him, have him fall to the Dark Side, and die! That's plenty of time to introduce a whole new character and plot line for the sheer purpose of having both the new apprentice and Anakin ambiguously "die" at the same time. I'm sure it will happen.


    And after the Tusken slaughter & confession scene (with the Imperial Theme and the Emperor's theme playing) and the scene with Palpatine, I'm sure all those theoretical first time viewers who don't know SW could never guess that Vader was Anakin. They'll be so surprised!


    ;)
  23. wedge3210 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 1999
    star 5
    The Imperial March is the Empire's bad guy theme. Not just Vader's.

    There's still a lot to be played out at any rate.
  24. ami-padme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 1999
    star 4
    Oh, I know. I guess they'll have to play the themes for Anakin, Palpatine, and the new apprentice just so no one catches on.

  25. wedge3210 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 1999
    star 5
    Got proof they won't?

    Of course not. It's just speculation.
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