Shhhhh! Don't tell anyone!

Go-Mer-Tonic said:

A) The secrets of Vadeer=Anakin and Leia = Luke's sister, are very important to the narrative of the classic trilogy.

Are these secrets important to the narrative? Could you please explain? I've seen the OT countless times, and all secrets are out after the first viewing. When I watch the OT now, I sure don't get a sense that the narrative is compromised in any way since I know all the secrets. Personally, I think it makes for better enjoyment.

b) They can show all of the tragedy they want and still not tell you that Anakin is Vader. They show him turn to the dark side, then at the very end, it appears as if Obi-Wan had no choice but to kill him.

Maybe you can clarify this point. I have a hard time with this. If you see that Anakin is one of the greatest (if not the greatest) Jedi there ever was (which I think we will see) and you show him tragically turn to the darkside, why would you think it was some ?other' Sith who was saved from the ?molten pit' instead of Anakin? If Anakin is so strong with the Force and yet so evil, why would Sidious rescue the ?other' guy? IMO, this would apply even if you didn't clearly see Anakin's face. It seems that the only way to make this believable would be to make it look like Anakin either didn't ?really' turn to the darkside or to make him out to be pretty weak, so that Sidious wouldn't want him as an apprentice.

c) The whole "let's watch ANH knowing that Vader is Anakin" sentiment can happen on the saga's second veiwing.

Sure, I guess. But I still don't understand why you couldn't watch the first time and know all of this. You can only be surprised once. Why try to keep these secrets rather than fully and openly show Anakin's tragic fall to the darkside and transformation into Darth Vader? All so you can be surprised one time and then realize that you have no idea what really happened through 2 whole movies?

I think it would be pure genius for Lucas to maintina the integrity of the entire story, without cheapening the Classic Trilogy for the cheap thrills of the Prequels.

I think you are way off base here. How can you say that? We haven't seen the entire story yet. GL has the story in his head. He's had it since the beginning. We are not yet seeing the OT as GL intends it to be seen. It is only half the story.

By ?cheapening' the OT, I assume you mean by taking away the secrets. Why would this cheapen the OT? It seems to me that the PT may be ?cheapened' if you can't fully tell the story because you want to keep the ?cheap thrills' in the Classic Trilogy.

There would be nothing lost about the Prequels if he kept these vital things under wraps.

I think things would be lost in the PT. By keeping the secrets from the OT intact, you have to be sure you don't give anything away in the PT. That doesn't seem like it leaves much of a story to tell. You would end up starting into Ep4 with no knowledge of the true nature of the events that are about to take place. If you don't want any prior knowledge, maybe you should watch Ep4 first and not worry about it, although that is an entirely different debate.

 

http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Darth Mace: The thing is, GL has said that our perception of the OT will change once the PT is completed, although this thought seems to bother some people.It doesn't bother me. Of course we will feel differently. We have proior knowledge of who Darth Vader turns out to be. If George keeps it under wraps, every first time veiwer will get the same opportunity to see Vader as evil, then re watch it, realizing only on the second veiwing who Vader is. It seems obvious to me that our perception of the OT (first time viewers included) will and should change once we see the PT. We will know who everyone is and how they got there. Now we will get to see how they get themselves out of such a bad situation.But If Lucas does not hide the revelations, a first time veiwer will only get the one way to see it, knowing who Vader is. If he keeps it under wraps, (again) everyone will get that amazing turn around of perspective. IMO, if the PT is presented in such a way that you know virtually nothing of what is to come in the OT (ie all the ?surprises) then you almost shouldn't ?waste' your time watching the PT.Why on Earth not? IMHO, if you know all of the surprises of the classic trilogy, why would oyu want to watch 4-6? You will end up starting ANH with as much knowledge as you would have anyway, so why take the time to sit through 3 movies when the ?real' story doesn't begin until Ep4?That is the beauty of it. You don't seem to understand the potential.

If he keeps the secrets, the whole trilogy is like Fight Club, where the first time you see it, it seems like a simple straight forward plot. Once you get to the end, you can re watch it and see all of the hidden foreshadowing and make sense of things that are explained later on. This makes the overall saga much more complex and compelling.

You still don't understand what I am saying methinks.

1) We can still see the horrible downward spiral of Anakin as he willfully embraces the dark side.

2) The ONLY difference is that we will think his downward spiral led to his death.

Why would knowing he is Vader make his downward spiral any more dramatic? To me it would take the bite out of ESB. Let's face it the "I am your Father" is the most satisfying rug pull any movie has ever made. What good would it be to show Anakin as being Darth Vader? What difference does it make?

[This message has been edited by Go-Mer-Tonic (edited 01-27-2000).]

 

http://sirstevesguide.com/images/darthmaulani.gif
Gomer doesn't want to ruin the OT for people who first see all 6 movies in 2006. To hell with everybody else.

He means well.

His logic is as sound as a Death Star.
http://pages.hotbot.com/sf/lordmaul/images/boom.gif

Remember that brilliant thread you started about 'when it's time to give up an argument', Gomer?

Take your own advice.

[This message has been edited by Lord Mauly Mall (edited 01-27-2000).]

 

Right. It's all about us.

I feel for you, Mauly. I been thinking I was ripped off by TPM and have been voicing my opinion on it for months. I still feel that way.

But I have hope that GL can still recover in time to keep from poisoning the ENTIRE saga.

 

http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Darth Mace: Are these secrets important to the narrative? Could you please explain? I've seen the OT countless times, and all secrets are out after the first viewing.Okay, then you get it. The secrets are only good for the first veiwing. But that is what makes it so incredible. The first time you see it, Lucas manipulates you into seeing Vader as pure evil. You get to the end and realise how hastey you had really been. It gives you a new perspective on how you relate to other people. It drives the point home that you cannot judge a book by it's cover. When I watch the OT now, I sure don't get a sense that the narrative is compromised in any way since I know all the secrets. Personally, I think it makes for better enjoyment.It does, but only if you were able to see it the unknowing way first. Otherwise it is just a simple narrative where the end becomes so anti-cliimactic you wouldn't care anymore.

Repeat veiwings will never surprise you, that is just how it works. Go-Mer-Tonic: b) They can show all of the tragedy they want and still not tell you that Anakin is Vader. They show him turn to the dark side, then at the very end, it appears as if Obi-Wan had no choice but to kill him.

Maybe you can clarify this point. I have a hard time with this. If you see that Anakin is one of the greatest (if not the greatest) Jedi there ever was (which I think we will see) and you show him tragically turn to the darkside, why would you think it was some ?other' Sith who was saved from the ?molten pit' instead of Anakin? If Anakin is so strong with the Force and yet so evil, why would Sidious rescue the ?other' guy? IMO, this would apply even if you didn't clearly see Anakin's face. It seems that the only way to make this believable would be to make it look like Anakin either didn't ?really' turn to the darkside or to make him out to be pretty weak, so that Sidious wouldn't want him as an apprentice.Lucas will play a simple shell game with Anakin and the sith lord. Go-Mer-Tonic:c) The whole "let's watch ANH knowing that Vader is Anakin" sentiment can happen on the saga's second veiwing.

Sure, I guess. But I still don't understand why you couldn't watch the first time and know all of this. You can only be surprised once. Why try to keep these secrets rather than fully and openly show Anakin's tragic fall to the darkside and transformation into Darth Vader?To force the veiwer to see it from two distintly different perspectives. Just like we did with just the classic trilogy. After we saw it once, we were surprised by Anakin=Vader, the next time we see it we have that new perspective. Without this twist the story become pedestrian. All so you can be surprised one time and then realize that you have no idea what really happened through 2 whole movies?Like that is not an incredible reason to do it. I still see no downside to this idea. Go-Mer-Tonic: I think it would be pure genius for Lucas to maintian the integrity of the entire story, without cheapening the Classic Trilogy for the cheap thrills of the Prequels.

I think you are way off base here. How can you say that? We haven't seen the entire story yet. GL has the story in his head. He's had it since the beginning. We are not yet seeing the OT as GL intends it to be seen. It is only half the story.Let me rephrase that. It would be pure genius for Lucas to preserve the story we already know by backing it up with prequels that keep the integrety of the classic films in tact. By ?cheapening' the OT, I assume you mean by taking away the secrets. Why would this cheapen the OT?Hello? Anybody in there? "Luke I am your father" is the most amazing part of the classic trilogy. No other film has topped that in my opinion. It seems to me that the PT may be ?cheapened' if you can't fully tell the story because you want to keep the ?cheap thrills' in the Classic Trilogy.Cheap Thrills? Wow. That comment amazes me. The prequels will still be awesome you will see. I think things would be lost in the PT. By keeping the secrets from the OT intact, you have to be sure yo

 

http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg That is George's stance on it as well.

He is putting the story above thos of us who are already spoiled.

To hell with everyone else.

This is why George predicted many people would be upset with Ep1, more would be upset with Ep2, and he felt that Ep3 would get the lowest boxoffice.

He knows many of you will fell dejected and insulted.

Just look at Jar-Jar. George is certainly not listening to the masses. Why should he? It is his story.

 

Let's forget Darth Vader's theme being played in conjuncture with BOTH Anakin and Vader.

Let's forget Darth Vader's breathing at the end of TPM.

Let's forget the fact that the teaser poster which every Tom, **** and Harry SW fan has bought off the Internet has Anakin casting Vader's shadow.

Let's forget that in the liner-notes of TPM soundtrack it states that Anakin is a young Darth Vader.

Let's forget that several SW toys state that Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader are one in the same.

Let's forget that "I am your father" is one of the most famous lines in movies history.

Let's forget that THREE generations of movie-goers already have the knowledge that Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father imbedded in their permanent psyche.

Let's forget about the numerous (and I mean NUMEROUS) interviews in which George Lucas and the entire Lucas-camp cite that the prequels are the story of Anakin becoming Darth Vader.

Let's forget about the Internet which will see to it that every interview, CD, toy and poster involved in the SW media unslaught of the 20th and 21st Century will be easily obtainable to furture generations.

Let's forget George Lucas when he said the following:

"The whole arc of the story, in the three that are out there now, is really the redemption of Anakin Skywalker. So the first three (OT) are really about Anakin Skywalker. So now you have a redemption of somebody you don't really even know--he's just always in a black-suit. But you don't know how he fell from grace and the trama that he went through to get him there and his son brings him back. The real story hasn't even been told yet."

Yeah, I know this implies that the prequels are about Anakin Skywalker (this guy "in a black-suit") "fall from grace"...not his "fall into a situation in which future generations might think he's dead". But forget about Lucas and his crazy ideas and dramatic "story-arc"!

Forget the fact that Lucas had already addressed the idea of people knowing what happenes to Anakin and who he becomes, by making an allusion to "Citizen Kane" (considered to be the greatest film of all time!).

Forget the fact that in numerous interviews Lucas has cited that he wouldn't be doing the prequels at all if it didn't drastically change how people viewed the OT. Wait a minute? The way Go Mer has it, people's view of the OT wouldn't be all that different than how they viewed it before the prequels? But forget Lucas and the obvious direction he's going in! Go Mer's right!

It's not cheating an immense SW audeince at all, to tell them you're making movies about Anakin becoming Vader and then coping out in the end, just in order to keep one 1980 surprise that would be a futile effort to keep anyway!

Forget the fact that whenever you ask a kid under ten "when did you first find out Darth Vader was Luke's father" he or she will most likely reply, "I just always knew."

PS--I love your Obi-Wan training the various Jedi at "Jedi Camp" or whatever. Even though, they clearly state that a Jedi can ONLY have one apprentice in TPM! I still thought it was cute.....

 

You're right, Boba. Let's forget all that.

That's the whole point!

I find it funny that you would feel like you're being cheated. FROM WHAT?

You already know that Anakin is Vader. What could you possibly be getting cheated out of?

And I have problems with TPM.

I can't imagine the RIOT that's gonna occur if George has Anakin appear to die in the end after he turns to the Dark Side.

 

AAAAhhhhhhhh!!!! Triple post! That's not like me.

[This message has been edited by Darth Mace (edited 01-27-2000).]

 

Wow! Great post Boba Funk, I think you've stated the situation very clearly. Thank you. Now, you have already said this in many ways, but I was about to bring up a certain point. Why would you even think that the end of ESB could be a secret? It is one little line from one little scene (albeit a great one) from a movie that is 20 years old!!! Everyone knows Vader is Luke's father. Everyone has known for either 20 years or their entire life span, whichever is shorter. I don't understand how you could find anyone alive today (that would have any interest in at least giving SW a try) that doesn't know the 'secret'. Even those who have never seen the movies know this. Why will it be different in the future? Why make the PT only for those future generations who will be seeing SW for the first time? Do you really think that they won't know that Vader is Luke's father before they even watch Ep1?

Here's my take on it. This 'secret' is so engrained into our society. You can't help but know it. IMO there are two scenarios for the future:

1. SW remains a part of our pop culture. This 'secret' continues to be known by everyone, even those who have never seen SW. Everyone would know the 'secrets' because of all of us fans (and future fans )

-or-

2. SW fandom wanes in the future. No one watches the movies. This has to last for several generations if no one is to know the 'secret'. You go far enough into the future that no one alive has ever seen SW. Now somebody happens to find a copy of 6 SW movies. Movies that no one has heard anything about since a long time ago... Is this who GL is making the PT for??? I think not. It would be pretty naive to think that SW would disappear for generations, so that all is forgotten, so that it may return again in the future for those truly untainted souls to watch!

 

http://sirstevesguide.com/images/darthmaulani.gif
EXACTLY! Thank you, Boba Funk- couldn't have said it better myself(even though I tried).

 

Oops!

[This message has been edited by Darth Mace (edited 01-27-2000).]

 

http://sirstevesguide.com/images/darthmaulani.gif
ditto

 

Wow! Great post Boba Funk, I think you've stated the situation very clearly. Thank you. Now, you have already said this in many ways, but I was about to bring up a certain point. Why would you even think that the end of ESB could be a secret? It is one little line from one little scene (albeit a great one) from a movie that is 20 years old!!! Everyone knows Vader is Luke's father. Everyone has known for either 20 years or their entire life span, whichever is shorter. I don't understand how you could find anyone alive today (that would have any interest in at least giving SW a try) that doesn't know the 'secret'. Even those who have never seen the movies know this. Why will it be different in the future? Why make the PT only for those future generations who will be seeing SW for the first time? Do you really think that they won't know that Vader is Luke's father before they even watch Ep1?

Here's my take on it. This 'secret' is so engrained into our society. You can't help but know it. IMO there are two scenarios for the future:

1. SW remains a part of our pop culture. This 'secret' continues to be known by everyone, even those who have never seen SW. Everyone would know the 'secrets' because of all of us fans (and future fans )

~or~

2. SW fandom wanes in the future. No one watches the movies. This has to last for several generations if no one is to know the 'secret'. You go far enough into the future that no one alive has ever seen SW. Now somebody happens to find a copy of 6 SW movies. Movies that no one has heard anything about since a long time ago... Is this who GL is making the PT for??? I think not. It would be pretty naive to think that SW would disappear for generations, so that all is forgotten, so that it may return again in the future for those truly untainted souls to watch!

 

http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Let's forget Darth Vader's theme being played in conjuncture with BOTH Anakin and Vader.Oaky Let's forget Darth Vader's breathing at the end of TPM.Okay Let's forget the fact that the teaser poster which every Tom, **** and Harry SW fan has bought off the Internet has Anakin casting Vader's shadow.Okay Let's forget that in the liner-notes of TPM soundtrack it states that Anakin is a young Darth Vader.Okay. Let's forget that several SW toys state that Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader are one in the same.Cool Let's forget that "I am your father" is one of the most famous lines in movies history.Allrighty then Let's forget that THREE generations of movie-goers already have the knowledge that Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father imbedded in their permanent psyche.If you say so Let's forget about the numerous (and I mean NUMEROUS) interviews in which George Lucas and the entire Lucas-camp cite that the prequels are the story of Anakin becoming Darth Vader.Oakie Dokie Let's forget about the Internet which will see to it that every interview, CD, toy and poster involved in the SW media unslaught of the 20th and 21st Century will be easily obtainable to furture generations.WHy are we doing a wipe again? Let's forget George Lucas when he said the following:

"The whole arc of the story, in the three that are out there now, is really the redemption of Anakin Skywalker. So the first three (OT) are really about Anakin Skywalker. So now you have a redemption of somebody you don't really even know--he's just always in a black-suit. But you don't know how he fell from grace and the trama that he went through to get him there and his son brings him back. The real story hasn't even been told yet."If you think it will help, but I think this is all pretty silly Yeah, I know this implies that the prequels are about Anakin Skywalker (this guy "in a black-suit") "fall from grace"...not his "fall into a situation in which future generations might think he's dead". But forget about Lucas and his crazy ideas and dramatic "story-arc"!None of this matter as far as the story is concerned. Forget the fact that Lucas had already addressed the idea of people knowing what happenes to Anakin and who he becomes, by making an allusion to "Citizen Kane" (considered to be the greatest film of all time!).Right, it will still be enjoyable for those of us who already know, but imagine someone who doesn't. Someone who will see it in order for the first time. The way Lucas keeps the integrity will pay off for them. Forget the fact that in numerous interviews Lucas has cited that he wouldn't be doing the prequels at all if it didn't drastically change how people viewed the OT. Wait a minute? The way Go Mer has it, people's view of the OT wouldn't be all that different than how they viewed it before the prequels?Preserving the secrets will preserve Lucas' vision of shifting your perception. To not keep them would ruin that possibility. But forget Lucas and the obvious direction he's going in! Go Mer's right!Lucas is going to keep it a secret and in time you will eat your words. He is too cool to do this half way. It's not cheating an immense SW audeince at all, to tell them you're making movies about Anakin becoming Vader and then coping out in the end, just in order to keep one 1980 surprise that would be a futile effort to keep anyway!To the immense SW audience, we will already know he is Anakin, he doesn't have to rub our noses in it. Future generations will be able to enjoy it on a whole other plane than we will be able to. You act like the current SW fanbase is in any way signifigant. This saga will entertain for the rest of civilization. THe current fan base is merely a drop in that bucket. Forget the fact that whenever you ask a kid under ten "when did you first find out Darth Vader was Luke's father" he or she will most likely reply, "I just always knew."Wow, just like Leia knew she was Lukes sister. So what? He is not making this for us fans, he is making it for

 

This is the way I see it happening. There will always be people who insist on seeing the films in the order released. Some of those may have been able to make it through life without learning that Vader is Luke?s father. For those, the revelation is ESB will play as a shock. For the rest, however, who either already know or who watch the films in numerical sequence, it will play as a Greek tragedy.

IMO, the worst thing GL could do would be to sabotage the story for the sake of preserving a trick that everyone in the audience already knows the secret too. It?s like The Third Man. The great shock of that film is when the light comes on, suddenly exposing Orson Welles as Harry Lime to his friend, Holly Martins (Joseph Cotton). Everyone else, including Holly, spends the majority of the film believing Harry to be dead, and in fact the first half of the film is spent with Holly trying to puzzle out the circumstances of his friend?s death. Then, suddenly, the dead man appears, very much alive. That scene, so much a turning point in the story, is also so much a part of popular culture now that there?s no sense in even trying to hide it anymore. Even if you?ve never seen The Third Man, chances are you?ve seen in some montage that light come on showcasing Orson Welles and the half-smile he instantly adopts as Joseph Cotton shouts in surprise, "Harry!" They don?t even try to hide it anymore. It?s become a selling point. But does it change the film, or make it any less enjoyable or entertaining? No. You simply watch it from a different point of view.

But the luxury of not knowing is one that others who come decades after a popular film?s initial release do not have. Audiences will always know that Ilsa leaves with Victor, that Rhett leaves Scarlett, of the horse head in the bed in The Godfather, that Harry Lime is still alive; the twist of The Crying Game is already used as a punch line in sitcoms; someday the surprise of The Sixth Sense will be as much common knowledge, and even people who have never seen the film will be able to tell you its secret.

Once the cat?s out of the bag, you can?t put it back in.

[This message has been edited by dehrian (edited 01-27-2000).]

 

Go-Mer,

Do you not enjoy that classic scene in TESB anymore, when Vader reveals himself to Luke? Now that you know, does the scene just fall flat for you? I didn't think so. Just the sheer drama of Luke finding out who Vader is, is enough to make it still an emotional high-point of the saga.

I love how you just choose to laugh at all the evidence I've compiled proving that Lucas ain't keeping Vader's identity a secret anymore. You see...I use evidence...evidence from Lucas and the films, etc. What do you use to back up your theory? "I think it would be cool". That's your argument.

Let's play your game though....

Let's say that Lucas in some kind of deluded state decides to not make the prequels for the living fanbase...but instead, for some far off, distant generation that may or may not exist...let's just go along with that....

According to John Williams, the "Vader" elements in Anakin's theme are going to progressively take over his theme in each subsequent film (which, maybe I'm crazy, but I think is pretty gnarley). Hence, by Ep.3 Darth Vader's theme will be linked to Anakin. Let's jump to TESB. They play that theme, attached to Vader, during all of his appearences in the film (WAY before he reveals himself to Luke). That in conjuncture with how ambigous everyone is when they talk about Luke's father (never even saying his name) to the young Skywalker would make it clearly obvious, who Vader is. It was only a surprise to the audience in 1980, because they only had ANH as a referrence point before. Now that they gleam all this information from the other movies it will be PAINFULLY obvious that Vader and Anakin are one in the same! By the time Vader reveales his "secret" to Luke, the audience would simply think, "duh...Saw that coming a mile away!" That's your way.
Lucas's way, thank God, is far more effective. Like Greek Tragedy, we follow the amazing and tragic journey of Anakin Skywalker every step of the way. His Rise, Fall and Redemption. This is a Space-Opera....Not a Space-Mystery! Goo-goo-goo-joob!

 

I just want to make a side note here.

I was not yet 2 years old when ANH came out, so I didn't see it in its initial run. I was 5 when ESB came out, and honestly I don't remember when I first saw it. I do know that I was 8 when ROTJ hit the theaters. I convinced my parents to take me, even though I had never seen a SW movie before, and I know I have been a SW fan ever since. My point is that I can use myself as an example. I 'played' Star Wars with my friends well before I ever saw the films. I knew that Vader was Luke's father before I ever saw a film. Since ROTJ was the first film I saw, I knew all the secrets before I knew they were supposed to be secrets. Did this take away from my overall enjoyment of the films??? I would definitely say no. Would knowing these 'secrets' take away from the enjoyment of the future audiences (assuming there was any way they could not know the 'secrets')? I don't see how it could. They would be presented with the entire story, showing every detail, every step of the way, all at once. I wish I could be so lucky. I believe it has been established that the only ones 'surprised' by the revelation in ESB were those who saw it in the theater in its initial run back in 1980 (assuming the 'secret' was not let out before they got to the theater).

 

Well, it would have been ruined for you as soon as you picked up the video. They put the picture of Welles standing there on the box.

 

http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg dehrian: This is the way I see it happening. There will always be people who insist on seeing the films in the order released. Some of those may have been able to make it through life without learning that Vader is Luke?s father. For those, the revelation is ESB will play as a shock. For the rest, however, who either already know or who watch the films in numerical sequence, it will play as a Greek tragedy.By keeping his identity a secret, it will play both ways. If you don't keep the secret, it will only play one way. I like the "more than less" aspect of keeping it a secret. IMO, the worst thing GL could do would be to sabotage the story for the sake of preserving a trick that everyone in the audience already knows the secret too.I think it would be a travesty to (for no good reason whatso ever) not keep the secret of ESB intact. It?s like The Third Man. The great shock of that film is when the light comes on, suddenly exposing Orson Welles as Harry Lime to his friend, Holly Martins (Joseph Cotton). Everyone else, including Holly, spends the majority of the film believing Harry to be dead, and in fact the first half of the film is spent with Holly trying to puzzle out the circumstances of his friend?s death. Then, suddenly, the dead man appears, very much alive. That scene, so much a turning point in the story, is also so much a part of popular culture now that there?s no sense in even trying to hide it anymore. Even if you?ve never seen The Third Man, chances are you?ve seen in some montage that light come on showcasing Orson Welles and the half-smile he instantly adopts as Joseph Cotton shouts in surprise, "Harry!" They don?t even try to hide it anymore. It?s become a selling point. But does it change the film, or make it any less enjoyable or entertaining? No. You simply watch it from a different point of view.Yeah but no one is going to add a new beginning to that movie, spilling the beans early now are they? That is the equivelant of what you are suggesting Lucas should do. But the luxury of not knowing is one that others who come decades after a popular film?s initial release do not have. Audiences will always know that Ilsa leaves with Victor, that Rhett leaves Scarlett, of the horse head in the bed in The Godfather, that Harry Lime is still alive; the twist of The Crying Game is already used as a punch line in sitcoms;-Shudder- I would not have had that horrific experience had I known about the "secret". someday the surprise of The Sixth Sense will be as much common knowledge, and even people who have never seen the film will be able to tell you its secret.Out of all of those films, I only know about the secret of the Crying Game. So for me, those films will be great when I do get to see them. Imagine seeing the sixth sense with the spoiler explained at the start of the film. Would the surprise be as cool on your second or third veiwing? I beleive it is the initial shock of a spoiler that cements it as a classic moment. The repeat veiwings would not be as good if the initial shock was not there. It is a way to re-live that shocking feeling. Once the cat?s out of the bag, you can?t put it back in.Narratively speaking, the cat is not out of the bag until ESB. I know George is not going to sacrafice the best part of the classic trilgoy just because he doesn't have to.

Boba Funk: Go-Mer, Do you not enjoy that classic scene in TESB anymore, when Vader reveals himself to Luke? Now that you know, does the scene just fall flat for you? I didn't think so. Just the sheer drama of Luke finding out who Vader is, is enough to make it still an emotional high-point of the saga.The reason it is still a great scene, spoilers known, is because of the initial shock everyone experienced when it first hit. If it was told to us that Vader was his father in ANH, then no one would care about that payoff initially. I love how you just choose to laugh at all the evidence I've compiled proving that Lucas ain't keeping Vader's identity a secret anymore.You have no evidence. Anything outside of

 

You know they also put the famous vision of Taylor kneeling down before the Statue of Liberty on the front-box of the Planet In The Apes video! A friend once looked at the box and replied, "Doesn't that ruin the surprise at the end?" I told him, I guess they just assumed everyone knew by now. With all the jokes on The Simpson and all....

By the way, another surprise in "Psycho" when it was first released was that Norman Bates was his mother. I'd say 95$ of the world realizes this now...even if they didn't see the movie. The Vader/Anakin thing is much like that. Ms. Portman might have never seen a SW movie, but I bet if someone asked her, before eventually seeing the films, if she knew who Luke Skywalker's father was she could have told them.....

 

http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Don't you get it? The package mayaccept the spoiler is known, but they will never modify the beginning to reveal it. They will still make you wait until the end.

 

The reason is is still a great scene, spoilers known, is because of the initial shock everyone experienced when it first hit.

What about all of us who have just "always known" that Vader was Luke's father? I never watched TESB scene and shrugged saying, "So? We knew that already!" It is not a great scene simply because the audience got a shock out of it in 1980. It's a scene with high dramatic import and a great confrontation -- that's why it continues to work, not just because those old enough to see it in the theaters were surprised by it.

George is going to keep the story in tact the way he envisioned it. Why should he change it just because you want to hear about it in the prequels?

So you're convinced that the way Lucas envisioned the story, going in order 1-6, was to have a trick ending at the end of Ep. III so he could shock us in Ep. V. One could argue that it was only a surprise because Lucas started with Ep. IV and wasn't sure he could do any of the other movies -- that if he had been able to go in order, it wouldn't have wound up being a surprise to the audience at all. I'm curious as to your reasons for thinking the former instead of the latter.



[This message has been edited by ami-padme (edited 01-28-2000).]

 

Go-Mer:

Yeah but no one is going to add a new beginning to that movie, spilling the beans early now are they?

That is exactly what they did. Harry Lime was so popular that there was a series of radio adventures with the character in his early days, pre-Third Man. Just like a prequel. Orson Welles himself did the voice of the character.

Imagine seeing the sixth sense with the spoiler explained at the start of the film.

I did. Someone on this very board spoiled it for me before I got to see the film, so I sat watching the movie through entirely different eyes than anyone else. If anything, I think I appreciated the film more, because I was watching the whole time looking for clues, and saw just how well-constructed (writing, acting, and directing) the whole film really was.

I won't go into details since you haven't seen it yet, so you'll just have to take my word for it.

[This message has been edited by dehrian (edited 01-28-2000).]

 

Go Mer,

People wouldn't be thinking "duh, saw that coming a mile away" my way. They would be thinking, "Man, Luke finally learns the awful Truth! I was waiting for that moment! Wow!" The focus would shift from audience surprise to character (Luke) surprise. Like I wrote before, I don't think this takes away any of the impact. There's many people on this forum who were too young to remember that scene when it first came out...many have said that even though they knew Vader was Luke's father, they still were blown away by the scene.

Regarding Anakin's theme, here's Williams quote:

"It's struggeling to become Darth Vader's Theme. And it's going to get there."

To me that sounds like they're not going to keep the Vader elements in Anakin's theme subtle for too long. Thus being, it still throws a monkey-wrench in your theory.

As much as you clearly want to, you can't ignore the infomation outside of the movie. Especially, in post-Internet society. There's just too much infomation out there spoiling the surprise for any future generation (at least, any future generation that would care about a Star Wars movie). Unlike a lot of those other movies mentioned, SW is a huge cultural enterprise (like Elvis or The Beatles). People like us, see to it that the SW Myth goes on. And the core of this Myth is that Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker. This is why the generation under us all seemed quite aware of Vader's identity before seeing TPM. Keeping a "cool" secret is one thing. Keeping a "cool" secret which is futile is another.

The surprise doesn't have the importance that you link to it. It was only "wow" after ANH. Because there was no way, then, that anyone could have imagined Vader to be Luke's father. After the prequels the films will take on an entirely different focus: Becoming an emotional rollar-coster ride in one man's life: Anakin Skywalker.

You seem to ignore Lucas's statements about his goal to have the OT be veiwed rather differently after the prequels. Like I stated before, the way you have it, it wouldn't be viewed that differently (at least, until the END of TESB). Also, the sheer fact that Lucas has addressed this question and said that he was handeling the story in a Citizen Kane fashion is enough proof for me that he attends to NOT keep Vader's identity a secret.

Also, your plot is too complicated, considering that there's only 2 two hour movies left in the trilogy. We know that Ep.II ends with Anakin and Amidala getting married. We know that the saga is about Anakin's Fall. We know that Lucas is mirroring each prequel episode with it's opposite OT counterpart. Thus being, it seems logical, in terms of the story-arc that Lucas appears to be clearly constructing, that Anakin and Obi-Wan's duel will be the CLIMAX of Ep.III. Anakin is a hero in Ep.II. He doesn't Fall to the Dark Side until Ep.III. The Clone Wars need to be dealt with. Anakin's relationship to Obi-Wan and Amidala need to be dealt with. The Rise of the Empire needs to be dealt with. The whole Shmi Skwalker and Slaves on Tantooine need to be dealt with. Your little ruse of a plot will just distract time from these important issues. It's grasping and striving to work around the known facts, JUST to keep the surprise. It's not what's good for the story in the prequels. What you have is ONLY good for that one moment in TESB (which is still good either way).

Maybe if you can come up with a better way, you can convince me.....most likely not....