Should Barriss be redeemed?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by StarWarsFan91, Mar 7, 2013.

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  1. QuangoFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2011
    star 4
    With the notion that the "they suit me" line is not necessarily definitive proof of her being the ultimate villain?

    And to the OP, "redemption" doesn't particularly appeal to me. Why? Because it would just hammer home the notion that the only people with good intentions are hardcore Republic Loyalists or dead. They killed off the good-intentioned Separatist, Mina Bonteri, and got her son to completely switch from Separatist to neutral to Loyalist. Barriss as the hardcore critic of the Jedi Order provides a perspective that, if not Separatist, is still sharply critical of the Republic and opposed to the Loyalists. She isn't a Krell. She isn't in this for her own skin, but for her sincere beliefs.

    If they return to Barriss, I hope this part of her new characterisation is retained.
  2. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Yup. In fact, with the notion that there really isn't all that much meaning that can be pulled out of that one line.

    Again, it will end up being the "Pull the building" of Star Wars fandom - a single line taken way, WAY out of context and blown out of proportion in order to "prove" an unlikely point.

    What's with this thread and 9/11 references?
  3. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Who are all these people, not counting droids which are not sentient (or do you believe they are?)?
  4. QuangoFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2011
    star 4
    Yes, that is probably the case with that line. Most likely either Lucas or Filoni decided, after Charles Murray had finished with the script, to add that "classic villain" line to get that corny Flash Gordon feel.

    The words "Barriss Offee" and "inside job" actually go quite well together...
  5. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    If you really don't know the answer to that question, you need a rescreening of the movies and TCW episodes. We see the Jedi hurt way more than just droids. The fact that those beings are EVIL SEPARATISTS!!! (or other designated baddies such as the wrong sort of Mandalorians) doesn't change that.
    Last edited by Narutakikun, Mar 7, 2013
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  6. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Of course it happens, and I'm not saying that no military action is ever justified because of the potential of random civilian casualties. But so long as we're working off of real-world logic, there's also risk assessment teams that analyze potential offensive actions prior to their execution. If there's a case in which civilian casualties can be reasonably expected, the correct thing to do is to not proceed and re-evaluate your tactical options toward a more favorable outcome.

    Barriss had every reason to believe that innocent casualties could be incurred in the blast because she's been a Jedi living in that Temple all of her life. She knows how the Temple crews operate, she knows that not just Jedi Generals use those hangars. And yet she proceeded with that course of action anyway, independently sanctioning the deaths of innocents in pursuit of a random blow against the Jedi. Even killing Jackar was the willful decision to sacrifice his life. "Munitions expert" does not automatically make him a agent of violence, either: he could very well have been a bomb tech, or an ordnance disposal expert. Were Barriss truly determined to act in a justifiable fashion, she would've had a non-sentient droid filled with explosives that could then be delivered to the High Council Chamber, effectively cutting off the Jedi's involvement in the war at its head. Those are unquestionably military targets, with a significantly decreased chance of collateral damage.
  7. Narutakikun Force Ghost

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    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Yes it does. Support personnel for a military force during a war are totally legitimate targets.

    Wait; so bombing a military base full of soldiers and support personnel during a war is not justifiable, but bombing a building full of civilian elected representatives and government employees - one that is doubtless also filled with countless aides, secretaries, reporters, janitors, interns, and maintenance men, along with politicians who didn't support the war like, say, Padme Amidala - is?

    Yikes!
  8. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    [IMG]
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  9. phatdude1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2005
    star 4
    I think Palpatine will use her as a tool (or at least he should). Here's my theory:

    I honestly don't think Palpatine had previous knowledge of what Barriss (or whoever) was planing. However once Ahsoka was framed, Palpatine jumped on it. I think Palpatine knows he has to get Ahsoka away from Anakin, because there is a chance she could keep him grounded, making it harder to turn him to the darkside. In the end, Ahsoka was absolved of the crime, but the result in the end was the same.

    Now here is where Barriss comes in: if they give Barriss the death penalty, all they have is a dead Jedi traitor. Now Palpatine wants to destroy the Jedi, so Barriss is more valuable ALIVE than dead. Why? Because she'll be a "pain in the rear" for the Jedi. Keeping her alive keeps her spouting her Jedi hate. I think Palpatine tries to get her a PARDON! He'll tell the Jedi Order (which we already know by this episode they'll basically do whatever the Republic wants) that "they need all the Jedi they can get to help fight the war". He'll tell them she can be rehabilitated, but on the back end he continues to feed her hate and helps her further undermine the Jedi, and continue the plot she was originally caught and convicted for in the first place.
  10. QuangoFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2011
    star 4

    Barriss Offee must be a CIA operative named Barry Osman.

    Also, I think Mia is referring to the Jedi Council Chamber, not the Republic Senate building. Not that the hangar is any less of a legitimate target. The Jedi Order has made itself into a military organisation, with even Padawans that are still technically children taking part in the hostilities as combatants.
    Last edited by QuangoFett, Mar 7, 2013
  11. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Wut.

    The Jedi High Council Chambers? Located at the top of a Temple spire, the meeting place of the heads of the Jedi Order and their highest military commanders? Yeah, that place...not what you described at all.

    But it's interesting that you distinguish between politicians who don't support the war, and non-combat Jedi who've never had anything to do with the war in even support roles, but continue to live at the Temple because it is their right as Jedi, as well as the difference between a Senate janitor and a Temple janitor. Seems a pretty arbitrary distinction...
  12. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Yeah - what you said.
    Last edited by Narutakikun, Mar 7, 2013
  13. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

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    Mar 3, 2013
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    You know, I wonder if Barriss is suffering from some serious PTSD or depression, and this contributed to her just snapping?
  14. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Actually, I believe that a good case could be made that both the Senate and the Jedi temple are legitimate targets. But of the two, the Jedi temple is unquestionably the more legitimate of them. An enemy's political leadership is debatably, but still probably, fair game. Their military forces are definitely so.

    The bottom line is: The Jedi Temple was a military base during wartime. There is no question that it was a legitimate target.
  15. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    Legitimate target for who? If I disagree with American influence abroad I can just start shooting non-deployed soldiers when I see them as legitimate targets? I don't know that the same "rules" apply to warfare as acts of terrorism. A terrorist does not get treated as a prisoner of war. And depending on how similar the Confederate/Republic relationship is to that of the Confederacy and Union of the American Civil War, then it's also possible that separatists themselves would simply be considered terrorists and all acts of war that they commit entirely illegal/illegitimate in every sense of the word due to the notion that they have no right to secede. Asajj is referred to as a criminal, not an enemy combatant.

    Barriss surely should not be redeemed nor pardoned. As @Valairy Scot mentioned, the Jedi see no redemption. It's conspicuous that Yoda is convinced that Vader is beyond redemption but that TCW is playing around with the idea that Asajj is in a semi-redemption limbo, Maul is showing the capacity for compassion toward another person, and Barriss can make a human bomb and criticize the Jedi and simply get pardoned for that (she would have to be pardoned by both Republic and Jedi)?

    Even if the Jedi were willing to pardon her, why would SHE want to go back? The Jedi aren't going anywhere as military leaders.

    And Tarkin would appear like a huge hypocrite to allow Barriss to live. She comes forward and admits guilt to all of the charges that Ahsoka was hit with and faced the death penalty for. I don't see Barriss walking out of that alive. A Jedi facing a swift death for treason also foreshadows Order 66. I can't see Tarkin going "oh, now wait just a moment, let's not be hasty; this padawan/knight brings up some legitimate grievances" and should be treated as a prisoner of war.

    Barriss was a member of the Republic military that carried out acts of treason. Who she attacked and whether or not they were a military target or not is irrelevant. It's treason.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Mar 8, 2013
  16. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    Barriss used a FORCE CHOKE!

    That is only ever used by Sith or Jedi who have fallen to the Dark Side. Barriss has fallen to the Dark Side, no matter how noble her goals were, they did not justify the means.

    That explosion killed an innocent Temple worker, dozens of Clones and Barriss's fellow Jedi. The only party that benefits from the death of over a dozen Jedi is the Sith and the Dark Side.

    Barriss Offee fell to the Dark Side and for the Jedi of the Prequel Order there is no redemption for such faithless traitors.

    Barriss is no better than Dooku or Krell, her lofty ideals don't change the fact that she killed Jedi and used the Force to choke an defenceless woman to death. That's cold-blooded murder.

    Barriss Offee will not be redeemed.
  17. rumblewagon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2004
    star 4
    I want Barriss to be exonerated of the charges against her and freed. I believe she's been falsely charged, denied fair legal representation, and coerced into making a false confession.
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  18. QuangoFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2011
    star 4
    Yes, the Republic denies the legitimacy of the CIS and sees all violence committed by the Separatist government as completely illegitimate. So ultimately, the only thing really separating Barriss from the CIS in the Republic's eyes is the fact that she doesn't wear the uniform of a larger entity. As a result, what the Republic sees as legitimate violence against it is not likely to be relevant to any discussions of how beyond the pale Barriss' actions are. (Alleged) terrorists do get treated as prisoners of war at times, notably by the U.S. at its Guantanamo Bay detention facility.

    That her targets are Republic military assets has no bearing on her punishment. That it's legally treason is obvious and never argued against here. It does have a bearing on the matter of whether she's a completely fallen Dark Jedi or not. She does have sincere beliefs that resonate even with other Jedi, and her targets are hard to define as illegitimate, "innocent" in the absolute purest sense of the word or completely unacceptable collateral damage in some "war" being waged. She may have already stepped onto the slippery slope of the Dark Side, being as brutal and ruthless as she is, but this does not necessarily make her a full-blown Dark Jedi.

    I agree that she would not rejoin the Jedi Order and that the Jedi would never accept her back. Anything else would be a complete reversal of her new characterisation and their existing one. The example of Ventress, though, indicates that the Jedi Order doesn't have the most complete understanding of redemption.

    I also think that the death sentence is a very likely fate for her. However, the sentence given to Ahsoka is never actually revealed. This might simply be life imprisonment, for all we know. Cad Bane, guilty of murder and treason, is merely sent to prison. Wat Tambor, a known war criminal, manages to stay alive years after his capture. It's also possible that having a Sith Lord as Chancellor has its perks for a rogue Jedi like Barriss. He might find a use for her as he does with Maul and previously tries to find with Krell. When Krell falls, Sidious plots to test him on Umbara. He could try something similar with Barriss. Alternatively, he might have already written her off as a loss, settling for making her fate a prelude to Order 66.

    Does she come out of this alive? Possibly. Possibly not. However, we don't know for sure. Not even in his spoiler-revealing glee does Filoni mention her fate in any post-S5 interviews.
    Last edited by QuangoFett, Mar 8, 2013
  19. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
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    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    Barriss Offee will not / should not be redeemed. @Barriss_Coffee is fine though. :p
  20. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    I don't think Barriss having a legitimate complaint means that she did not fall. She's giving into her fear, hate, and aggression, all things of the Dark Side. If you want to look at Revenge of the Sith, everyone Anakin killed after his fall was also a "legitimate" target, all members of the Jedi Order (serving as military leadership and charged with treason), as well as the leadership of the CIS (also considered traitors to the Republic). That doesn't mean that he didn't fall or that that what he was doing was not evil.

    And if you want to get into the "evil is a point of view" argument - while true - also is going to entirely miss the point of Star Wars. I mean, I don't think anyone is meant to look at the OT and think "Alderaan had that coming" or "I would do the same thing ... shock and awe, baby!" And if someone really did come out of seeing the OT and rooting for the Empire, then I don't know... I feel like Star Wars doesn't have an overly complicated view on what is good and what is evil, and represents those ideas in the simplest terms that the majority of people across all societies on Earth can agree with.

    Anakin's targets are just as "legitimate" as Barriss', though I don't know that anyone would argue that he did not fall and distinguish his actions as simply being due to a belief and legitimate reasons. Barriss may have seen corruption in the Republic, but I have no reason to think that she didn't fall.
  21. Heero_Yuy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 4
    I think the Jedi would forgive Barriss if she baked the council a nice apple pie topped with "My Bad!" written in whipped cream.
  22. SithLord_1270 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2008
    star 3
    No....don't redeem her. Let her end stay as it is. Either imprisoned for life or eventually executed.
    Besides, we have enuff fall/redemption stories already. & I would also like to add, that not everybody can be redeemed. But who says she needs redemption? She may not b in the minority.

    The Republic/Jedi come off as heroes. But I find this misleading. Not everybody is clean in war.i think we should see more of the Sep side of the war. Not so much about Dooku or Grievous or some droid, but the view of the average citizens of Seps. To see how they view the war.
    Last edited by SithLord_1270, Mar 8, 2013
  23. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    I seriously doubt we will see Barriss again. The court was ready to sentence Ahsoka to death based on the shaky evidence. Barriss has no chance at all. She will be found guilty and will be executed. A foreshadowing of the fate of all Jedi, to be executed for treason against the Republic.
  24. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

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    If Barriss is to be executed, I hope that at least it's not done offscreen and merely mentioned in passing, or not mentioned at all. Her death would hopefully be more meaningful than mere foreshadowing, and maybe she gets held up as a martyr to other Jedi who have lost faith in the Order. That way there will be more permanent repercussions to her demise that will echo through the Jedi up to the point of Order 66 being issued.
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  25. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
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    Well, yes, actually. When people sign themselves up for the military, they make themselves legitimate targets for people who want to make war against the government they represent. That's the risk they take when they sign up, and it's also why we throw them parades and call them heroes.


    Here, I disagree. Striking a legitimate military target during a war makes you a soldier, and soldiers have always been treated differently than terrorists or common criminals.

    Legally, perhaps, but who is making that law? And is it morally treason?

    Like all Jedi of this era, Barriss was taken from her home when she was a toddler and placed in the Order. That isn't really voluntary allegiance. Can you really be a "traitor" to something you were basically forced into? Yes, forced - we have laws that protect children from things we don't protect adults from on the basis that children don't really have the ability or capacity to choose their own fates. But in their arrogance, the Jedi have again made themselves an exception.

    This is a good point. Very often, in our own world, people who were far from perfect in their own lives have become symbols of things as time passes. And very often, the need for them to be a symbol surpasses the strict historical need for truth about them. The Simpsons touched on this in the episode where Lisa finds out the truth about Jebediah Springfield. At some point, pointing out the truth wouldn't serve any other purpose than to tear down the ideals that they are a symbol of.

    So what if we get to the sequel era, and find that Barriss has become a sort of hero-martyr - the one Jedi who dared to speak the truth and try to fight the powers that were pulling the Republic towards despotism? What if she has become a symbol of bravery and resistance to tyranny, even to the point of turning against everything she had come to value? One can debate how much truth there is to that or how justified her actions were, but when someone becomes a symbol of something, especially something inspiring, the details cease to matter. Do any of you care that the real John Lennon was a colossal jerk who habitually beat his wife, that the real Abraham Lincoln didn't actually give two figs about oppressed blacks, or that the real Galileo used his inventions to cheat people in a Renaissance version of insider trading? Of course not. You prefer the image of Lennon as an innocuous hippie and a symbol of peace 'n love, Lincoln as a symbol of uncompromising justice and righteousness in the darkest of circumstances, and Galileo as a symbol of science, rationality, and progress.

    I think it would be interesting to see Barriss become a symbol of honesty, bravery, and righteousness to the Rebellion and the New Republic. And maybe even to see some people who knew that the truth wasn't quite that simple - an adult Ahsoka, for example - choose to do what Lisa Simpson did, and to let the symbol endure for the greater good.
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